Shamelessness
By John Cole March 31st, 2011
Although I am skeptical about the Libya stuff, the shamelessness of some of the critics has been simply ridiculous. People who, like me, cheered on the invasion of Iraq, are now running around screaming about the “imperial Presidency” and other crap like that. It’s absurd. I’m not sure we are doing the right thing or the smart thing, but the screams about illegal war seem laughable. Last night, Lawrence O’Donnell absolutely brutalized one such hypocrite, Sen. Rand Paul:
Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy
Now that was must see tv.
Posted in War
Is there a reason why political commentators can’t just name the damn name and call people out directly. I swear, it’s like you all get off on being passive aggressive 24/7.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:40 pm
“the representatives of the people”. my ass!
March 31st, 2011 at 1:41 pm
Fuckin’ treaties, how do they work!
March 31st, 2011 at 1:47 pm
Fighting the last war?
March 31st, 2011 at 1:47 pm
@Bob Loblaw: cough Sully cough
I think a good rule of thumb here is that if the press is shitting their pants (because disagreeing with the president during wartime is “treason”, for example), that’s a good time to be skeptical. If the press is concern trolling (because the president states his case without lying or demonizing his opponents), that’s a good time to consider to the case the president is stating.
I guarantee when president Palin decides we should invade the country of Africa, the press will once again be shitting it’s pants and/or wetting it’s bed, and it will be unable to show an ounce of skepticism.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:50 pm
John, come on. You already know the answer to this one.
The President is a Democrat. Also, too, he is near.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:51 pm
Well that rules Barack “No Boots On The Ground” Obama out of the equation.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:52 pm
If a Republican is elected President the good news will be that can stop giving a shit about anything again.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:53 pm
@jrg:
I’m not sure Palin can get away with it anymore (6-9 months ago, sure). Certainly not by 2013 if she continues her current tracking.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:53 pm
@Joe Beese: Yeah, because intelligence agents are the same thing as armored divisions.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:53 pm
Is that a terrible hairpiece on Rand Paul or did he actually go to a barber and ask them to make his real hair look like a terrible hairpiece? The world would be a better place if Ron Paul had been differently inspired and we had Democratic senator Frodo Paul…
March 31st, 2011 at 1:55 pm
Thanks for this – I’d missed it.
I’m “supporting” the Prez on this one, but I’m also deeply concerned and appreciate – welcome, even – the folks who are raising counter-arguments. So I also welcome acknowledegment from “the other side” that this is a complex call and not easily reduced to simple answers or sloganizing, and certainly no time for opportunistic, disingenuous politicization. When we’re making decisions that entail the ugliness and brutality of war – and that includes so-called “just” wars – there’s no room for triumphalism or convincing oneself that it could possibly be anything other than an honest-to-God lesser evil.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:56 pm
O’Donnell owes Rand Paul a retraction and he knows it. Only the title of that ‘nonbinding resolution’ was read on the floor, and the resolution text was not given out. The resolution title had no mention of military action, and before Rand Paul got back to the floor so he COULD have objected, the whole thing was ‘deemed approved for lack of objection’. you should be more outraged, not less, that they are trying to justify GOING TO WAR by such a travesty.
Don’t believe me? Read the Congressional Record, look it up on CSPAN. Read this: http://t.co/Yp3YAvF Because, clearly you can’t trust O’Donnell.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:56 pm
@Joe Beese: Here we go with the concern trolling.
I suppose we don’t need the CIA in Libya. We should be getting our info from reconnaissance unicorns.
Everyone knows what “boots on the ground” implies – a ground invasion force. Don’t pretend it means something else.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:57 pm
@Joe Beese: Stop lying…spats, loafers, sneakers, dress shoes, sandals, pumps, flip-flops even…no boots. Wanker. Stupid idiot is really stupid.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:57 pm
@theturtlemoves:
The fuckstick could at least go with the ShatnerTurbo 2000, not the Trump-dead-squirrel-on-my-head model.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:59 pm
@jrg:
Yeah, I know who it is. I’m saying if you’re going to call somebody out for their positions, actually call them out and confront them directly.
March 31st, 2011 at 1:59 pm
@jrg: Has Obama used the phrase “boots on the ground”? Joe put it in quotes. IIRC the phrases he used were “ground troops” and/or “ground forces.”
March 31st, 2011 at 2:00 pm
Heh, indeedy.
Especially that pesky deficit, debt stuff.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:00 pm
It is not “the imperial presidency”.
It is Humanitarian Imperialism.
Its Just War Theory dressed in a wal-mart suit.
Its the UN “Responsibilty to Protect” Doctrine tricked out to look like American foreign policy.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:01 pm
O’Donnell is really a blowhard. This is the resolution he’s talking about in the clip. It “applauds,” “strongly condemns,” “urges,” and “welcomes.” In other words, it has no legal effect. O’Donnell makes it sound like it gives the President carte blanche to do whatever he wants in Libya, and it does nothing of the sort.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:02 pm
@Bulworth:
“Reagan proved that the deficit doesn’t matter” – Dark Lord Cheney.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:02 pm
A nice Republican Congressman, Mike Rogers, MI, Intelligence Committee just explained to Mrs. Greenspan that “that’s the CIA’s job during a conflict” He said there’s a lot of info we need from the ground. He spoke of mustard gas & other suspected WMD that Gaddafi may have possession of…...No word on the amount of bribe he was paid by the President.
Now Mick is on from the Pentagon….says it’s “preforma.”
March 31st, 2011 at 2:03 pm
@JKR: Oh bullshit. He could have objected from his office. They can do that, you know. If a Senator really doesn’t want something railroaded through, they can stop it. Paul chose not to. It’s not O’Donnell’s fault that it makes Rand look like an idiot.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:03 pm
@jrg: I saw what you did there.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:06 pm
@Mark S.: Lack of concrete opposition – that is, anything beyond token grandstanding – is essentially carte blanche.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:06 pm
I think O’Donnell would have done a better job if he had mentioned the UN Participation Act and educated his viewers on the mechanism by which Presidents (since 1946) can legally act in furtherance of UN Security Council resolutions without a Congressional authorization. He could also explain the difference between binding Acts and non-binding resolutions.
Such further clarification wouldn’t have necessarily diminished the impact of Rand Paul’s lies, but it would have been better journalism.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:08 pm
@Dave:
Or he could say “The President’s Senate allies railroaded this resolution through” or “This was a non-binding resolution” or “The manner in which this resolution was passed does not live up to the standard of debate and consent that the Senate should have in these matters.” Any of those would be intellectually more honest (and on process grounds, perhaps a legitimate gripe) than pretending that the Senate has had zero say on the matter.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:10 pm
@jrg:
this morning, NPR was saying that the CIA is also training/advising the rebels. whatever info they have says the CIA is doing far more than just target spotting.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:11 pm
@TheF79: How can it be “railroaded” when all Paul had to do was disagree? He gets that chance and he chose not to take it. Good lord…it’s not O’Donnell’s fault that Paul looks the fool. Non-binding or not, it his fault for allowing unanimous consent.
Also…Paul needs to read up on treaties and how they work.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:13 pm
Far be it from me to be impolite and flout the new blog overlords, Roberts Rules of Order and Emily Post, of whose new internet traditions I just became aware (thanks socratic_me!), but Rand Paul really should not wear a wolverine on his head. Instead of being inspiring like those nice high school boys in “Red Dawn,” it looks even more ridiculous than Trump’s combover.
Oh, and he can go fuck himself, also. Too.
Damn. It’s gonna take me a while to get with the new groove, I guess.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Speaking of embarrassing videos, here’s Wisconsin Rep. Sean Duffy(guess?) struggling to get by on his $174k/year.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.....ternet.php
The best way to get people to forget about an embarrassing video is to try and make the video disappear, because that always makes folks less interested. amirite?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:14 pm
At this point I consider O’Donnel just another carnival barker,however it is sweet to hear a lie called a lie on the tube.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:15 pm
I was halfway across the internet when I looked back and noticed the faint glow of intellectual honesty coming from a few people in the comments section of Balloon Juice.
What a refreshing sight it was.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:15 pm
@jwest: @jwest: Names, We want names.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:17 pm
How is Paul a hypocrite on this issue? He said exactly the same thing about Iraq (“there should have been a declaration of war” which he would have voted against). He’s been simglemindedly consistent in opposing foreign adventures. (I think he came out against the Afghan surge).
MattY made the same point about Congress abdicating its responsibility in a post this morning.
I’m not saying there’s not a lot of hypocrisy/misdirection out there, but Paul’s explicit criticism doesn’t seem too unfair.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:18 pm
JKR and Mark s.
Let’s hope that this bout of truthfulness and reason doesn’t get them kicked out the club around here.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:21 pm
@cleek:
All the better to protect civilian* lives, of course.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:22 pm
@harokin:
Um, it’s hypocritical to vote through unanimous consent on a resolution that begs the UN Security Council to intervene in Libya with whatever it takes, especially a no-fly zone and then go on tv and say that no one in the Senate has had a chance to be heard on the very issue on which Rand Paul gave his consent?
Now, since the Emily Post internet rules are in place, I won’t say that maybe if you watched the clip and paid attention, you would have understood that. But I would have if the internet politeness police weren’t watching me closely these days.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:23 pm
The defection of Libyan officials is a good sign that Gaddafi’s power is starting to unravel a bit. We’ll see if it continues.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:25 pm
@jwest: Depends…are they going to start lecturing us on the evils of fiat currency and low-flow toilets?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:25 pm
@jwest:
jwest, what brings you from The Moderate Voice? Get tired of of rubber stamping every conservative comment there? Time to passive-aggressively rubber stamp your vague approval on some comments here, I suppose.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:26 pm
@harokin: If Paul is so against foreign adventures, why the unanimous consent? Even if non-binding, opposition to such a resolution is THE opportunity to make your case.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:27 pm
Lit3Bolt,
Just looking for a better class of crazy liberals to argue with.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:28 pm
Judge Scalia got a ticket!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42....._politics/
Schadenfreude for everyone.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:28 pm
“We don’t know anything about these people we’re helping! Who are they? Are they terrorists? How are they going to run Libya if they get control? Huh?”
“Ok, we’ll try to find out the answers to these questions.”
“BOOTS ON THE GROUND
!”
March 31st, 2011 at 2:28 pm
John Cole you are so willfully misled:
1. Senate Resolution 85 is non-binding; it DOES NOT have the force of law.
2. It was passed in less than a minute after introduction, with no debate, and only the title about “condemning human rights violations” was read outloud. Here is the transcript:
——————————————————————————————————————————————————
Mr. SCHUMER. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent the Senate proceed to the immediate consideration of S. Res. 85, which was introduced earlier today.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk will report the resolution by title.
The assistant legislative clerk read as follows:
A resolution (S. Res. 85) strongly condemning the gross and systematic violations of human rights in Libya, including violent attacks on protesters demanding democratic reforms, and for other purposes.
There being no objection, the Senate proceeded to consider the resolution.
Mr. SCHUMER. Mr. President, I ask the resolution be agreed to, the preamble be agreed to, the motions to reconsider be laid upon the table, with no intervening action or debate, and any statements be printed in the Record.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without objection, it is so ordered.
The resolution (S. Res. 85) was agreed to.
The preamble was agreed to.
There was no vote in Congress authorizing our military action in a foreign country. Please read the Constitution. If you are required to obey laws, our country must also live up to its end of the bargain and obey its rules.
Rand never voted for ‘resolution 85’. It was passed on motion ‘without objection’ before Rand could even get back to the floor, wasn’t even read, so no one knew what was in it, and was explained away as ‘nonbinding’. Check out the Congressional Record, only the TITLE mentioning NO military action was read, even, before it was deemed passed. Wonder why they did it like that? Maybe because Rand Paul had been the only one to object to extending the Patriot Act for three years ‘by unanimous consent’ the same way? What sort of ‘representative government’ is this?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:30 pm
The CIA is in every country, gathering information and doing their thing on the QT as a matter of course. When I saw Fair Game, the very first scene showed Valerie Plame working undercover right here in Kuala Lumpur. And I wouldn’t have thought there was anything much going on in Malaysia that would be of interest to the CIA.
So it’s absurd to argue that the CIA being in a country means a military invasion is imminent. It just means they’re going about their business. If they weren’t gathering intelligence in Libya, what Americans should be asking is, “Why the hell aren’t they?”
March 31st, 2011 at 2:30 pm
@jwest:
more like a 5-alarm fire. If Mataconis is correct, Libya is not a slippery slope to Iraq II, but a frictionless cliff to hell.
With the New Obama Doctrine of Humanitarian Imperialism, the President can pick and choose where we intervene, preferring those with a high probability of positive outcome.
Win win.
Like Libya, where there is a 75% probability Qaddafi will be gone by the end of the year, and a 100% probability that he will be gone eventually.
Dude is 82 years old and shares a border with the Muslim Brothers that just put out a fatwah on him.
After Our Glorious Success in Libya, we will be on to the next humanitarian intervention.
I predict Syria unless the SMB takes down Bashar with speed.
Otherwise, there is always Iran.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Dave,
Centuries from now museums will have low-flow toilets on display in their Liberal Wings as a demonstration on how an entire political ideology couldn’t think the simplest problems through.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:32 pm
@JKR: I read the bill. I have to agree, much as I loathe Rand Paul.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:32 pm
@Joe Beese:
Well that rules Barack “No Boots On The Ground” Obama out of the equation.
CIA != Ground Troops.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:33 pm
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: You turn on a dime, don’t you?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:33 pm
@jwest: Ah. So basically you three are the Paulite spear-carriers come in here to defend the self-accredited ophthalmologist because he allowed himself to look like an idiot. Got it.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:34 pm
Haha. What a sentence!
(P.S. I really don’t think he is.)
March 31st, 2011 at 2:35 pm
@Amir_Khalid:
haha
Their business is determining if a military invasion or some other less invasive form of meddling is “necessary”. It doesnt mean an invasion is imminent, it just means its possible.
If America decides to intervene, of course it will be for
cost-viablehumanitarian reasons.March 31st, 2011 at 2:36 pm
There’s an ad on your site asking to sign a petition to defund Planned Parenthood.
I want to just clog them up, so I went there (does that get you a penny or two?), and signed as “Adolp Hitler” with email of “fuhrer@thirdreich.com”.
O’ SNAP!
March 31st, 2011 at 2:37 pm
@jwest:
Seriously, dude, what is with you wingnuts and low flow toilets? We have two of them and have never had a problem with them at all. Not even when we both had stomach flu at the same time.
Oh, wait. I forgot that wingnuts are 20X more full of shit than I am on my worst day.
And, yes. I’m still having trouble with that politeness thing.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:37 pm
“Frictionless Cliff to Hell”
Wasn’t that an Up With People! song?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:37 pm
Dave,
Not really a fan of Paul, but I’m a real fan of fairness and the truth.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:38 pm
http://andrewsullivan.theatlan.....libya.html
March 31st, 2011 at 2:38 pm
@jwest: yeah…and that’s why you are against the low-flow toilet. One of the most innocuous devices ever made.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:39 pm
@Joe Beese: Ummm….Not sending in the CIA would have been CIC malpractice. What reason do you think we have spies in the first place?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:39 pm
@Joe Beese:
Do the lurkers support you in e-mail also, too?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:39 pm
@Omnes Omnibus: not really. Everything that puzzled me about Obama just snicked into logical placement.
I was an arrogant fool.
Everything I didn’t understand about Obama’s policies….everything I naively and worshipfully ascribed to 13D chess or slowing NLS collapse….al-Awlaki, Baghram, Camp No, Afghanistan, DDOSing Wikileaks, Manning’s treatment, character assassination on Assange…epiphany!
Obama is an evangelical after all.
A humanitarian imperialist, and the only difference between him and Big White Christian Bwana is his skin color.
Now Operation Frequent Wind II becomes the ONLY exit strategy for the unjust, unwinnable, and undeclared war in A-stan. The Very Bad Thing I’m sensing is whatever horror is shambling out of the dark to dislodge us.
I think I am obligated by honor code to commit seppuku now.
I feel sick.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:42 pm
@geg6: I saw it and read the resolution. I do not read it as authorizing use of US military force. Is anyone actually arguing it does constitute such authority?
I hate appearing to defend Paul, which is why I tried to invoke MattY instead, because Paul’s a loon. But there’s a difference between a formal congressional resolution authorizing military force and a nonbinding resolution. Are nonbinding resolutions ever actually debated?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:43 pm
@cleek:
this morning, NPR was saying that the CIA is also training/advising the rebels. whatever info they have says the CIA is doing far more than just target spotting.
Yes: “According to reports”. Unsourced reports (“an American official and former U.S. intelligence officer”). That first appeared in the foreign press.
Whatever one’s feelings on the CIA’s role in this… I’m curious as hell to find out who, in which intelligence agency, decided to ratfuck the Administration.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:43 pm
Geg6,
Low flow toilets embody the very essence of liberal thought. They are an ill-conceived answer to a contrived non-problem, imposed on everyone when even if the premise was correct, only needed to be used by a few.
Other than that, I have nothing against them.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:44 pm
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: Please.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:44 pm
I wonder what Americans would say if they were told Sully is the vanguard of an anti-American 5th column.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:45 pm
@Omnes Omnibus: In her defense, she did read one article.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:45 pm
@Joe Beese:
I personally plan to weep disconsolately and sit in ashes since rebels who don’t like being shot and bombed might end up killing some of the people who were going to shoot and bomb them.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:47 pm
@Judas Escargot (aka “your liberal-interventionist pal, who’s fun to be with”):
Depends on if the Admin was leaning towards more direct involvement or not. Hell, it could be one faction of the Admin RFing the other.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:47 pm
@Joe Beese: Oh, you’re lathering with Sully. That explains it then.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:47 pm
@Dave: Who on earth opposes more efficient appliances?
It’s like the incandescent light bulb bullshit that the conservatards are so hung up on. How is a lower electric bill an imposition on your Freedom®?
This, I do not get.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:48 pm
@Elia: Mataconis was the random shot that fragged my belief in the Innate Righteousness of President Obama’s FP.
Like I said, the windows across my mind aligned.
All the things I couldn’t understand….became logical in context.
....al-Awlaki, Baghram, Camp No, Afghanistan, DDOSing Wikileaks, Manning’s treatment, character assassination on Assange…..
it all sync’d.
I wish I say that you are right….you don’t know how bad i wish it.
:(
March 31st, 2011 at 2:48 pm
@Ana Gama:
The CIA is evil unless the agent is pretty blonde woman who gets outed by Scooter Libby.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:49 pm
@jwest: I don’t understand why people like you—liberal or conservative—get so obsessed with this silly tribalism. All the explanations I can come with are kind of clichéd: picked on in school, self-loathing, fat, bald, too skinny, too hairy, daddy called you a faggot when you were you, mommy nursed you for too long, etc.
Maybe you can help explain.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:49 pm
You know, I am totally against Libya. I would be appalled at the slaughter, I can’t stand dictators, but I feel democracy is messy, violent in birth and requires a people committed to finding it. Even I can’t stand the hypocrisy of Iraq/Iran war lovers being on my stand or the misinformation hysterics. CIA have to be involved in getting intel if we want to avoid creating Bin Ladin 2.0. And yes, we are a large part of the military might behind NATO. You can completely be opposed to this action, hell I’d prefer if we just sent them a “loving support from a distance in spirit” card and got the hell out of there and Iraq and Afghanistan. America bled for years to have the current Democracy the Republicans have shat on, I don’t see why other people should have us come in to fight for them and bypass that.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:49 pm
@ Judas:
That’s what I thought. For some reason the prevailing interpretation last night was that it was a deliberate leak by the administration. Given that we have already heard that there were and still are differences of opinion about how far to go, it seemed to me to be likely that internal dissenters were leaking this stuff to embarrass the people who won the argument. Bob Loblaw was scoffing at that.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:49 pm
this was nothing compared to Gates skewering the House wingnut fartheads this morning in a committee hearing. The dude might be the best Secdef we have ever had, and the most honest. He’s not a big fan of what we are doing in Libya, you could tell that, but he wasn’t going to put up with any right wing bullshit either.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:49 pm
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
Or… or be a little less fixed in your certitude next time around. Just saying.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:49 pm
Yes, I clearly remember the Indians, Pakistanis, Burmese, Zulus, Kenyans, Rhodesians and Sudanese asking, nay begging, the British to show up. That’s how imperialism works, right?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:51 pm
Hermione,
Shhhhhh! Don’t say those thoughts out loud. Thinking that clearly will booted out of here faster than anything.
I can say things against the collective because I’m a known conservative. But dissent from within isn’t tolerated too well.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:52 pm
@jwest:
Wow, you’re quite the revolutionary thinker. Do you also refuse to recycle because it’s an imposition on the sovereign territory of your trash can?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:53 pm
@jwest: OK. Wow. More than half this country lives in the American West; a place, in case you were not aware of this, that has very little water of its own.
This being the case, flushing perfectly drinkable water down a toilet is not an efficient use of said water.
But thank you for outing yourself as an idiot. That is always useful knowledge to have. I will treat your subsequent posts accordingly.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:53 pm
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: So you had never ever heard before of the accusation-slash-opinion that so-called humanitarian intervention is really imperialism by another name? Because, you know, that’s an argument that’s at least 20 years old in its current form, and at least 100 years old if you want to link it to the “White Man’s Burden” in the Philippines, and at least 150 years old if you want to trace it back to critiques of the Mexican War by, like, Henry Fucking Thoreau.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:53 pm
@General Stuck:
And as for arming the rebs in Libya and more importantly us training them, when asked repeatedly, both Gates and Mullen replied, “there are plenty other countries that can do that” in a way that seemed pretty much to pour the cold water on that idea.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:53 pm
@FlipYrWhig: I know; I was on the thread and watched the about face happen. I am sure she will read something new soon and that will CHANGE EVERYTHING!
March 31st, 2011 at 2:55 pm
@harokin: Too late to edit, but nonbinding resolutions have been debated by the Senate, including the February 07 opposition to the Iraq surge (which they then went on to vote to fund). Seems pointless to me, but there you go.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:55 pm
@Failure, Inc.: I don’t know…it’s insane. Teatards seize on these non-issues and turn them into “The Greatest Threat Ever To The Republic”
March 31st, 2011 at 2:55 pm
@Judas…:
NPR’s current top story:
that can be neither confirmed nor denied:
doesn’t say anything about the “foreign press”. the story credits their own reporters and the AP.
does Bradley Manning have a brother ?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:58 pm
@Mike Goetz:
King Cetshwayo of the Zulu Nation did end up asking for British help in restoring his throne, although it didn’t work out real well.
The Boers in Rhodesia and elsewhere didn’t ask for Brit help, although they quite fine on their own when it came to killing the locals and blowing shit up. The British suppression of the Mau Mau revolt in Kenya was a study in ethnic cleansing and large scale ethnic murder. It is telling that they destroyed ALL of the records relating to the prison camps and prisoner interrogations.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:58 pm
@General Stuck: And probably will be. The Brits, French and Italians have roots here that we don’t. I wouldn’t be surprised if Cameron has his boys getting in a little deeper than we are.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:58 pm
I proudly supported the President and I still do but
somehow this link made me laugh.
Sorry for those who aren’t signed in to the Times but here’s a preview
Obama Gets Openness Award in Private
March 31st, 2011 at 2:59 pm
I’m coming late to this thread. Could somebody tell me why the CIA is providing low-flow toilets to the Libyan rebels?
March 31st, 2011 at 2:59 pm
@FlipYrWhig: Your wish is my command.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:00 pm
@FlipYrWhig:
All the people I follow on my MiddleEast List on Twitter thought this article solved the Leak:
abuaardvark Marc Lynch
RT
SlaughterAM: Must read. RTTheAtlantic Is Obama simply trying to scare Qadaffi out of #Libya? http://theatln.tc/fFqh8r by @Max_FisherMarch 31st, 2011 at 3:00 pm
Every Jedi is now a threat to the Republic
March 31st, 2011 at 3:00 pm
@lacp:
Because the CFL lightbulbs all broke in transit. Also, they gave Michelle Bachmann a sad.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:01 pm
not only was this good, but his slam of Mittens was hilarious too.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:01 pm
@Failure, Inc.:
Yes, but trying to prevent a problem is unAmerican. You’ve got to delay like a 4 year old trying not to go to bed or you’re betraying freedom. Of course the DoD’s Quadrennial Defense Review doesn’t agree with jwest but what can you do?
Why try to head off a security risk when we can just wait for it to come find us?
March 31st, 2011 at 3:01 pm
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: I believe you have been misinformed, I don’t believe that seppuku is honored throughout the empire, I believe perhaps you have it confused with suttee, that is of course, if you are bethrothed to your beliefs
March 31st, 2011 at 3:02 pm
Below a commemorative plague that reads:
Low flush toilets: putting food on Joe the Plumbers table since 1994
.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:02 pm
@Culture of Truth:
In that case, I want your lightsaber after the Clone Troopers shoot you. Is that okay?
March 31st, 2011 at 3:03 pm
I opposed the Iraq War. The causus belli crap that Sully and others were waving around at the time was just that – crap, and completely unsupportable by international law outside of a small handful of law journal articles written by some way far out of the mainstream right-wing legal academic nutjobs.
Our Afghan adventure could possibly be hung by the barest of threads under the argument that the Taliban government so actively harbored Al Qaeda after the 9/11 attacks such you could claim Al Qaeda was an agent of the Taliban (the govt of Afghanistan) such that Afghanistan could be deemed to have engaged in an act of war against the U.S….ok, I didn’t really buy that either.
I oppose Libya for similar grounds – but at least in this case, the U.S. is operating in the context of approval of or at the request of, various mutlilateral treaty organizations – GCC, the Arab League, NATO, and most importantly the UN. However, I still think we are on incredibly thin ice and should not be invovled.
The threshold for “legal” military intervention (i.e. war) on the part of one state against another should be pretty high for a reason. Wars have a tendency to spiral out of control (they are, after all, wars) with the end result of many civilians being killed and their property destroyed.
Plus, as a country guilty of war crimes (like, torture), the U.S. should be getting its own house in order first.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:03 pm
the last Rand Paul quote in the piece was the money quote for me. RP said the Senate had never ‘commented’ on Libya. That’s certainly a lie, even if you don’t think anything else he said is.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:03 pm
At the top of tonight’s fight card: Angry Black Lady vs Big White Christian Bwana
March 31st, 2011 at 3:03 pm
@lacp: Libya is a desert country, you know.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:03 pm
@jwest
“Truth”. As in the Bible is truth or as in something you can demonstrate empirically?
March 31st, 2011 at 3:03 pm
@General Stuck: What a difference from his predecessor. He is the Obama administration’s daily bucket of cold water, dousing the dreams of starry-eyed idealists and American exceptionalists. To the extent I continue to be optimistic about our role in Libya, it is because he seems to have real access to Obama, something Powell did not have with Bush.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:04 pm
To get to the crux of this thread, overflowed toilets are the very essence of conservative thought…
I could go on…but it’s best I go grab a mop.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:04 pm
@lacp:
Win.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:05 pm
@cat48: Ha, I think I know Max Fisher, from something totally different…
March 31st, 2011 at 3:05 pm
@celticdragonchick: Obama is just engaged in a light sabre rattling.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:05 pm
@piratedan:
Useless sci fi fact:
Seppuku is the fastest way to travel on Phillip Jose Farmer’s River World.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:05 pm
Obviously, Libya is a false flag operation so Obama can raise his own private army of nurses.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:06 pm
@celticdragonchick:
So faster than other means of suicide?
March 31st, 2011 at 3:07 pm
@Culture of Truth: I think the technical term for that is “frottage.”
March 31st, 2011 at 3:08 pm
@goblue72:
I can respect this statement. I understood the reasons for Afghanistan (way back when), opposed Iraq, and am not completely comfortable with Libya, but can give Obama the benefit of the doubt.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:09 pm
@harokin: Regardless of whether the resolution is binding or not, it was put forth as a statement from the Senate an was put to each Senator as: Here is our official statement on the Libyan crisis. It includes bits about a no fly zone and even more. Do we unanimously agree that this is our statement? Yes? Thank you very much for participating. Buh-bye.
Again, if Paul is against those things, why not object at that point? Is it that he could only object from the floor? We’ve been told he could object from his office. Was he busy on a low-flow toilet, trying to read the latest Wash Times by the light of a government-regulated green bulb? Surely even then he could have just NOT VOTED FOR IT. But maybe he pulled the wrong lever, what with it being so dim in that room from the poor light given off by the government-regulated light bulb, fumbling around trying to flush the government-regulated toilet.
Truly he is stranger in a strange land. Best for all if he resigns and moves back to blue grass country…
March 31st, 2011 at 3:10 pm
@4tehlulz: Just when you thought he couldn’t top “terror babies”...
More importantly…who are the ass-hats who elect this guy??
March 31st, 2011 at 3:11 pm
@goblue72:
You are definitely going to be an outlier on that one. Documents I read from the Air Force stated that AQ and the Taliban had merged operationally to the point that they became indistinguishable. AQ was running nearly all military training for the Taliban fighters and had effective control of most of the combat forces in Afghanistan. The replication of c cubed structures was somewhat like how the Germans made do with composite military and intelligence organs in WW II (the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS, or the regular SS and the Gestapo)
March 31st, 2011 at 3:11 pm
Failure Inc. (how apropos)
In checking the population density of the U.S., I see that most of the major cities are located close to a fresh water source. (probably purely coincidence)
No doubt there are a few areas that water conservation is appropriate, however this is better handled by the cost of water in a free-market society. Blanket imposition of onerous regulations for contrived problems is never the right answer. Once the left locks in on a particular aspect of junk science, no amount of reason or logic will dissuade their ridiculous “solutions”.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:13 pm
@celticdragonchick: IIRC, wasn’t there one report that stated AQ basically ran Afghanistan and the Taliban had lost effective control?
March 31st, 2011 at 3:13 pm
@cyntax:
Not really, but I was having a bit of fun with that.
My sense of humor can be macabre, given that I was regaling my Calculus prof with anecdotes of gruesome death via volcanic pyroclastic flows at lunch time…
March 31st, 2011 at 3:14 pm
@Dave:
Possibly, although what I read suggested they had essentially merged.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:15 pm
@jwest: 1.6 gallons per flush is an “onerous regulation”? Really? Much better we allow corporations to jack up water prices. Solid thinking there, buddy…
March 31st, 2011 at 3:15 pm
@Dave:
If jwest want teh awesome market freedom, we could always stop the massive subsidies that make water affordable at all in the west.
No more desert agriculture, no more Phoenix, Arizona and no more Los Angeles or San Diego.
All subsidized water.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:18 pm
Don’t feed the low-thought troll. Once someone goes to magical free-market land to justify being against something that’s perfectly common sense, you haz a troll.
Remember, we’re Americans. Give us convenience or give us death
! If anything conserves a resource or uses a resource more efficiently, it removes our freedom to waste as much energy/water/oil as possible.
And that’s just UnAmerican.
lulz
March 31st, 2011 at 3:19 pm
Celticdragonchick,
“No more desert agriculture, no more Phoenix, Arizona and no more Los Angeles or San Diego”
Now you’re talking. I knew if we just laid out market principles, some of you would catch on.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:22 pm
@4tehlulz:
it doesn’t bother me so much, that some percent, the numbest of the numbnuts might believe this junk…
what is worrisome to me, is that this is the exact thing they themselves would do, or endorse being done, by people who just so happened to agree with them.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:23 pm
Here is a little tidbit from Gates this morning in the House hearing concerning US ground troops in Libya.
Sounds like Gates made an offer Obama couldn’t refuse, though I suspect Obama felt the same way about getting us into a land war in Africa. Or, if our troops go into Libya, I as secdef go out the door. That is the way it is supposed to be.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:23 pm
@jwest: Yes, a few places like most of Southern California, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Denver, SLC, oh and just about every other city west of the 100th meridian.
And sure, the free market will just work this out. Except, who owns the Colorado River again? How’s California v. Arizona working out for water rights? Smooth as silk right? 70 years of litigation (and, probably, counting). And how does the free market account for Indian tribes claims to water?
But hey, let’s avoid an ounce of prevention in favor of about 1000 pounds of snake-oil “cure”...
March 31st, 2011 at 3:24 pm
@geg6: Rand Paul’s hair has given me the giggles ever since he appeared on the national scene. It sorta matches his little kid whiny voice though. I normally don’t like to comment on the personal appearance of people in the lime light, but has any one else noticed that Michelle Bachman’s face has stopped moving? She has been botoxed to the max. I’m not against having “work done” on oneself but not to the point you erase your face. Also Rick Scott of Florida could play a ghoul with no make-up. Maybe if he borrowed Boehner’s tanning bed and got a little color it would help. OK, that’s my quotient of mean for the day.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:25 pm
@jwest: Do you mean that folks who can’t afford to just shouldn’t flush?
March 31st, 2011 at 3:26 pm
I agree with Yglesias on this:
March 31st, 2011 at 3:27 pm
@jwest:
I think we have our Greenspasm of the day locked up.
“With notably rare exceptions, like the entirety of the country Southwest of a line drawn between San Francisco and Dallas, water conservation is unnecessary.”
(And never mind the fact that water usage in most cities outside of the Southwest also far exceed what can be supplied via immediately-local fresh water sources.)
March 31st, 2011 at 3:27 pm
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: Maybe one of your online avatars could commit seppuku. After all, you wouldn’t want to get a mess in the house, etc.
just a thought ;-)
March 31st, 2011 at 3:28 pm
@Dave:
I guess now we know who jwest is working for.....
March 31st, 2011 at 3:30 pm
@jwest:
Of course, market principles are more important than any petty little human concerns, so we will let the unseen hand enthusiastically jack off the socially privileged while everybody else gets sucker punched in the gut.
There is a reason why unregulated free market neo liberalism died just about everywhere else in the industrialized world.
It had everything to do with fellating the market and nothing to do with actual living, breathing human beings.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:30 pm
Abscam,
“Do you mean that folks who can’t afford to just shouldn’t flush?
Absolutely. Not only folks who can’t afford it, but people who don’t want to spend the money to flush. Go with chemical toilets if you’re poor, green or cheap.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:30 pm
@jwest:
If this is an example of “thinking the simplest problem through” then when your head is on a pike somewhere, it will represent an increase in the aggregate IQ of the species.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:30 pm
@jwest: Small government.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:31 pm
@FlipYrWhig:
It’s the wording that perks my ear: Crafted to simultaneously lend the air of authority to what is, after all, a rumor (though most likely a true one)... yet vague enough to protect the source.
The list of names for which “current American official” and “former Intelligence officer” are both true would actually be pretty long (it would apply to any civil servant who started out in CIA/NSA/etc then moved over to a State or DoD job, for example).
Hell, that description fits Sec. Gates himself.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:33 pm
@harokin:
Well, you might consider reading the UN Treaty, of which the US is a signatory, and then the Constitution, especially the part where it talks about how treaties have the force of law.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:34 pm
Mike Lamb, DarrenG,
Just like all liberal programs, the unforeseen consequences come back to haunt you.
http://www.mnn.com/your-home/a.....ow-toilets
March 31st, 2011 at 3:35 pm
@Culture of Truth:
/starwarsgeekpendanticmode on
Every Jedi is now an enemy of the Republic.
Soon to be the Empire.
Where we create our own reality, by blowing up entire planets who dare to dissent.
/starwarsgeekpendanticmode off
March 31st, 2011 at 3:36 pm
@celticdragonchick: Well now, let’s think this out. Cutting off water to Arizona…that may not be such a bad thing.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:37 pm
Celticdragonchick,
I don’t agree with anything you say, but I like the way your mind works.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:37 pm
@jwest:
Well, since they work, I don’t see how they can be called ill-conceived. And if you are happy wasting your money paying high water and sewage bills, more power to you. Personally, I was happy to see my bills drop like rocks when we got ours. Much the same way my CFL bulbs had a large impact on my electric bill.
And they say GOPers/conservatives are the fiscally responsible ones.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:38 pm
@celticdragonchick:
Well, they had the recent example of what happened when the Germans didn’t take care of all that evidence fresh in their minds.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Well, it looks like Andrew Sullivan had a completely different take on good ol Rand.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlan.....gress.html
Note, it is not one of skepticism (surprise) or one where he needs to look past his own pre-existing dispositions in this matter.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:41 pm
@geg6:
Like the part of the Geneva Convention that requires Obama to prosecute torture.
Yet another ship that has long since sailed.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:41 pm
Libya’s ambassador to the UN, recently appointed since the last one defected, is now defecting as well. Two senior officials defect in two days. Looks like the last days of disco for the Colonel.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:42 pm
Glibertarianism is objectively pro-cholera.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:43 pm
@Joe Beese: So, if intelligence agents are now military occupiers, then Obama has likely invaded every nation on the planet save Tuvalu and Pitcairn Island. Obama is a global occupier! Way, way worse than Hitler!
@harokin: The US has treaties with both NATO and the UN that give the president permission to provide military support to sanctioned actions without Congressional approval. Congress approved those treaties, so they’ve provided him with pre-approval for this.
I suspect a non-trivial component of the shift to NATO operational control was the ability to shift US military activity without Obama having to go back to Congress for approval. IIRC, Obama has somewhat more latitude under the NATO treaty than he does under the UN one. Had they gone with some ad-hoc operational group, then Obama would have had to try and fall back on the War Powers Act. Right now, the War Powers Act isn’t what Obama is relying on for authorization, but it may give Congress a means to stop Obama, though it’s not clear what happens when the War Powers Act runs headlong into a treaty.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:45 pm
@jwest:
Tell that to LA and Phoenix.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:45 pm
@jwest:
jwest, I’ll give you a dollar if you bring DLS over here. Pretty please? Or did he retreat to safer ground over at Hot Air with Jazz?
March 31st, 2011 at 3:45 pm
Geg6,
Are you factoring in the costs of pouring millions of gallons of bleach into the sewer systems around the country each year? And how about the associated environmental effects. What does all this bleach do the snail darters, the dolphins, the bald eagles? Think of the Children!
Why would liberals want to poison our fragile eco-system for want of a few gallons of water?
How can you sleep at night knowing the policies you support are responsible for introducing untold millions of gallons of destructive chemicals into mother earth?
I weep for our planet.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:46 pm
@geg6: Also, too, doncha know, it takes a lot of flow to get all that shit to the Fox News room.
March 31st, 2011 at 3:48 pm
@jwest: Yes, will no one relieve us of the scourge of low flow toilets?? Oh, the humanity!
March 31st, 2011 at 3:51 pm
@cleek:
Just FYI, my opinion of NPR isn’t very high. “Confirmed” indeed. Confirmed with whom?
Anyway, the story (as far as I’ve been able to tell—Google is limited when you’re trying to piece together a sequential timeline) first broke in the UK press (sky news was the earliest instance I could find yesterday). Then the story moved to Reuters and spread out radially from there, just in time for Sully to start having conniptions.
The CIA and NSA’s role in the planning stages was matter-of-factly mentioned as early as March 8th, BTW. No uproar then.
It was only a day and a half ago that all the news outlets suddenly, almost simultaneously decided to focus on this.
CIA involvement is a documented fact that’s over 3 weeks old. Why the sudden uproar about it NOW?
As the lawyers say, Cui bono?
March 31st, 2011 at 3:53 pm
@jwest: Since when did San Francisco become sewer systems “around the country”? It also appears that there is a rather easy fix based on your article.
And finally, how does this article support your position that the free market would fix things? Or the other bullshit argument that only a small area of the country needs to worry about water conservation?
March 31st, 2011 at 3:54 pm
I like Gates’ style, too. “I’m going to say whatever I want, and if you don’t like it, fire me.”
I thought Hillary was going to shit a brick when he was asked on MTP, “Does this involve our vital interests?” and the first word out of his mouth was “No.”
March 31st, 2011 at 3:54 pm
Wouldn’t the inevitable outcome of market pricing of water be… low-flow toilets?
March 31st, 2011 at 3:56 pm
@jwest:
Ahh, the old “junk science” thing. What part of the science is junk? And by what scientific process did you arrive at this result?
March 31st, 2011 at 3:59 pm
OT, but this picture is too funny for words.
http://plixi.com/p/88360164
March 31st, 2011 at 4:00 pm
Mike,
San Francisco is the canary in the coal mine. Due to their radical liberalism, the embrace of low flow toilets has been complete and unimpeded with high flow cheaters and double flushers. What is happening there is a prelude to what will happen throughout the country.
Some attribute the fall of the Roman Empire to lead poisoning. Perhaps America will fall to chlorine poisoning… all due to low flow toilets.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:01 pm
@ Judas: IMHO it steps all over the speech, the purpose of which was to reassure that everything would be limited and multilateral, and which was fairly well received in the elite media. This story becomes a way to make a case about either bad intentions undergirding high-minded ideals, and/or the slippery slope to Vietnam II or Iraq III.
Look how irritated it’s making Left Blogistan. That’s not the principal audience, of course. It’s carefully selected to agitate a press that feels guilty about not trying harder during Iraq II and whose oldest hands still remember the glory days of Vietnam I.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:02 pm
@jwest:
WTF are you talking about? I think you’re trolling the wrong person. What does bleach have to do with my low, low water and sewage bills?
March 31st, 2011 at 4:03 pm
Not for everyone, just as the high cost of gas doesn’t stop people from driving suv’s and Hummers.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:04 pm
@geg6: Something about using chlorine in sewage treatment.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:04 pm
@jwest:
If your ilk ‘wins’, I doubt there will still be toilets of any kind in 2 centuries.
Remember: Make sure you’re downhill from any of your food and water sources.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:05 pm
@jwest: Like most municipal systems, San Francisco’s water utility already has applied “bleaches” its water, with application of chlorites/ates and chlorine-based chemicals such as chloramine to kill organisms which might make it through various other processing such as filtration.
Other stuff is used, and varies over time, but I think that the bleaching thing is pretty easily understood by most people reading it as applying to the toilets themselves.
I’m not replying to you, just adding some stuff which has probably been added by the time I’ve finished typing and posting.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:07 pm
OT again, but look at the turnout at the HUGE FOXNews/Teabagger Rally! in DC today:
http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002860/
March 31st, 2011 at 4:07 pm
Maybe I haven’t been paying enough attention, but can anyone explain to me how a thread about Libya is now dominated by talk of toilets?
March 31st, 2011 at 4:08 pm
@jwest: Jeebus fuck, you are dumb. Again, there is an easy fix according to the article. I also must’ve missed how the rest of the municipalities in the West fall in lock step with San Francisco. Or did I imagine how “San Francisco values” were the butt of 50% of conservative jokes?
And, if you were particularly concerned about chlorine problems, you should focus on paper makers and folks that produce PVC pipe that is used everywhere. That free market is really squaring those issues away.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:08 pm
@geg6: In other news of evil, The FY had a sell out for opening day, half the seats are empty.
FTFY.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:10 pm
@FlipYrWhig:
Better than than e coli. Which I have had and thus can, with personal knowledge of the joy of it, wish jwest would get a touch of just so he’d go away and be forced to flush his shitty toilet so many times his water and sewage bills would triple.
Uh oh. There I go being impolite again.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:10 pm
@FlipYrWhig:
IMHO it steps all over the speech, the purpose of which was to reassure that everything would be limited and multilateral, and which was fairly well received in the elite media.
Your guess on this is as good as mine. I’m essentially just thinking out loud at this point.
I just read the Atlantic article that cat48 linked to, and now I find myself half wondering if the “leaker” was Gates, after all. It fits (which, of course, does not make it true).
March 31st, 2011 at 4:10 pm
@jwest:
Dude. You’re not supposed to drink the water in the toilet.
Glad we cleared that one up.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:12 pm
@harokin:
I believe you’re thinking of RON Paul, the dad. I don’t agree with his extreme and harsh libertarianism, but I like his stance on not going to war, although I bet his reasons are different than mine. In any case, RON Paul has more integrity in his little finger than RAND Paul has in his entire body.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:15 pm
@joes527: Of course, there’s not a requirement that we continue to have water systems which have us defecate and urinate into drinking water.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:16 pm
Heh… that was sweet sweet pwnage there.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:18 pm
You know, I was starting to think that my pie filter had stopped working, but they I realized that I’d typed “jest” instead of “jwest,” which has got to be a Freudian slip.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:19 pm
@Amir_Khalid: “Right here in Kuala Lumpur”? How cool that this blog has readers and commenters from such extended locales. Well, I guess, this being the internet, Malaysia’s not distant from anywhere.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:21 pm
John,
Obama’s administration is the IMPERIAL presidency. Evidence below. It is you that has your nose superglued up Obama’s asshole and I am goddamn sick of it. Your an ignorant and nasty drunk. Time to seek AA and reality, bud:
Shades Of John Yoo
BY ADAM SERWER | POSTED 03/31/2011
This is really alarming:
The White House would forge ahead with military action in Libya even if Congress passed a resolution constraining the mission, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said during a classified briefing to House members Wednesday afternoon.
Clinton was responding to a question from Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA) about the administration’s response to any effort by Congress to exercise its war powers, according to a senior Republican lawmaker who attended the briefing.
The answer surprised many in the room because Clinton plainly admitted the administration would ignore any and all attempts by Congress to shackle President Obama’s power as commander in chief to make military and wartime decisions. In doing so, he would follow a long line of Presidents who have ignored the act since its passage, deeming it an unconstitutional encroachment on executive power.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:23 pm
Billions of gallons of poorly diluted, chemically infused sewage clogging our aging infrastructure and creating problems not even conceived of as yet, but live-for-today liberals see no problems.
All to save a few dimes of water.
Mother Earth longs for people of vision. You would think the appearance of people in San Francisco who are forced to use low-flow showerheads would be enough to turn this assault on nature around.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:23 pm
Louie Gohmert (R-TX) has decoded why Obama sent troops to Libya. (Go with it.)
Via Wonkette.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:25 pm
@El Cid: That is true, though the state of the art for the waterless urinals needs some work.
They put them in at my office about a year ago. Pretty clever, and no water usage at all. The reality is that they stank up the place. They didn’t last 6 months.
I don’t think that peeing into water is a god given right that must fight to maintain … but if we are going to go another way, it needs to actually work.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:25 pm
Rand Paul, if he actually objected, should have objected.
If he actually objected, he could have stopped unanimious consent.
He did not stop unaniminous consent; he did not vote no.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:30 pm
@Sentient Puddle:
Everything turns to shit eventually?
March 31st, 2011 at 4:30 pm
Problem: Someone accued libertarians of having a all-consuming obsession with low flow toilets.
Solution: Go to a random blog and spend an entire day whining about low flow toilets!
Huzzah! Jwest makes that guy who showed his guitar to the Priests of Syrinx look like a piker.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:31 pm
@Ronc99:
It surprised many in the room that he would do the same thing every other president has done? How is that possible? You can say that it’s alarming, but you can’t say it’s surprising.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:31 pm
@Ronc99:
Wow, great find there, Ronc99. Except I read that at least 3 days ago on TPM. And, in the specific case of Libya, she may have a point since we’re talking about a UN and NATO operation. And, in the case of a NATO operation for sure, he doesn’t need Congress’ input or approval according to the NATO Treaty which was approved by…wait for it…Congress!
And, honestly? Cole is an ignorant and nasty drunk? Not in my experience. Drunkenness, IMHO, makes Cole a teddy bear. Now you, my dear, are the picture of ignorant and nasty. But without the excuse of alcohol.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:31 pm
@Judas Escargot:
(The “reply” function doesn’t seem to be working for me, so I’m replying “manually”)
The story you linked mentions that the CIA director and national security adviser were involved in consultations about what to do in Libya, presumably based on intelligence that they had and were/are gathering. That strikes me as pretty uncontroversial.
But the Reuters story that I brought up in comments yesterday and that John Cole posted about talks about a presidential authorization for U.S. covert operations in Libya. That allows for a much broader scope of CIA (and other agencies’) involvement; to be fair, this doesn’t mean that any particular actions have yet actually happened. But “covert operations” can range from something relatively benign to some really nasty stuff. And we know that the US has resorted to doing nasty stuff via the CIA. So I don’t think it’s out of the range of reasonable thought to be concerned about how far any covert operation may go and whether those in turn lead to deeper involvement in other area.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:32 pm
@joes527: Huh. We’ve got the waterless urinals almost everywhere now and I’ve never detected a smell – not even at the association facilities that get less regular service. They’ve all got a little bee to pee on, so maybe the manufacturer is key for that.
And anyone who has trouble with low-flow toilets bought a shitty one. Toto UltraMax is awesome. Sounds like a fucking carrier launch in your bathroom. I could probably flush tennis balls down that damn thing. If you want a proper toilet, buy Japanese.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:33 pm
@joes527: It’s a difficult option right now given infrastructure, but even in using water it doesn’t have to be the water so purified as for drinking. So-called “gray” water, though I don’t have an ideal solution.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:33 pm
Fucking moderation, how does it work? I don’t know what the verboten word was.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:34 pm
As an only-occasional reader of comments here, and even-less-occasional commenter myself, I gotta say that the quality of troll this place attracts has noticeably declined.
Brick Oven Bill at least understood pizza. Now BJ is stuck with the low-rent guy who can’t understand the basics of chemistry, civil engineering or California politics, and appears to believe contrary to all evidence that conservative, libertarian, and “free market” solutions never have unintended consequences.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:35 pm
Gegs, you homosexuality noted. Thanks.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:36 pm
@Martin: Most of ‘em seem to be about pharmaceuticals or playing games to win money. I tend to forget the latter: p/oker, c’asino, that sort of thing.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:37 pm
@Ronc99: But Congress already granted him that power under the existing treaties. Congress can demand that he stop this action, but there is still an existing authorization there (2 of them, in fact – UN and NATO treaty). So is Congress also going to repeal the UN and NATO treaties?
March 31st, 2011 at 4:37 pm
@FlipYrWhig: I posted about toilets, though. I’ve been posting here for what, 5 years now, and I still have no clue what triggers moderation half the time.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:38 pm
@DarrenG: Maybe we can get jwest to comment on the libertarian positions toward hairy armpits or laughing helicopters.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:40 pm
@jrg:
President Palin probably would call for an invasion of the “country” of Africa. A president with brains might point out a reason for invading the continent of Africa. Also, too.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:40 pm
It’s almost impossible on this site to complain about anything Obama. Because if we are to do so, we are told, would you rather have had President McCain opening up a third war in a place like Libya.
AND WE LOUDLY PROCLAIM: your boy Obama is doing EXACTLY FUCKING THAT. Sheesh!
March 31st, 2011 at 4:40 pm
Libya is not Iraq, but it damn sure ain’t a good idea. But I guess Europe has to have its oil—it’s my understanding that only about 1 percent of ours comes from Libya—and I’m sure in exchange for use of our freedom bombs Europe will throw open some more secret prisons for us.
And Rand Paul may be a douchey little twit, but I don’t know if I’d call him a hypocrite on this issue. Ron Paul, at least, was an outspoken opponent of GWB’s Iraq fiasco.
The Pauls believe in no government… beyond Medicare payments for doctors, of course. But at least they’re consistent.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:41 pm
@Ronc99: What is this, 1983?
Is that still considered an insult where you come from?
It must be comforting to know that, when they install the first toilet there, it will be low-flow.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:41 pm
@Martin: Was your discussion about toilets concentrating on how people commit in/cest in proximity to them? If not, no idea. Unless it was the too-many-links problem.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:42 pm
@Ronc99:
So…”Gegs” is not a man, ergo, you look like a moron and a petty bigot assuming she is a homosexual?
Yes, I think that is right.
@Ronc99:
This sounds like a personal problem.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:42 pm
Martin,
Congress most certainly has NOT advocated itself of its Constitutional responsibility on war. You are making John Woo’s lies into factual reality, and they never were. It is Obama carrying out Cheney/Addington’s “Unitary Executive” in which dandidate Barack promised to end, that he thinks gives him the power. It most certainly does not…
There are millions of us who are planning on seizing that illegal power and shoving it up his Executive ass. Got it?
March 31st, 2011 at 4:43 pm
Is that a terrible hairpiece on Rand Paul or did he actually go to a barber and ask them to make his real hair look like a terrible hairpiece?
He’s doing Donald Duck’s neer do well wingnut cousin, the insufferable Gladstone Gander.
Seriously—do a Google Image search. It’s exactly the same hairdo.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:44 pm
@FlipYrWhig:
Shitty topic. I’m with wordpress on this one.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:45 pm
@Ronc99: Not John Woo! Think of how many lives will be lost in making Hard Boiled into factual reality!
March 31st, 2011 at 4:45 pm
Midnight Maruader is feeling all chivalrous. It’s what most short dicked men do when they feel threatened. Haha.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:46 pm
@Ronc99:
LOLWUT?
@Ronc99:
Better.Trolls.Please.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:48 pm
@Resident Firebagger:
See, this doesn’t make any sense. Gadhaffi was happily, eagerly selling his oil to Europe, right up until Europe went after him. The realpolitik, oil-diplomacy move would have been to politely avert one’s eyes while the oil dictator oppressed and slaughtered his people, like both European countries and America have done so many times before.
Instead, we told the oil dictator to shove his petrochemicals up his low-flow toilet interface, and when he was about to snuff out the rebellion that had actually caused an interruption in the flow of the stuff, his biggest customers went to the UN and got a resolution authorizing military action that kept the uncertainty going even longer. I’ve seen how America and Europe act when one of their oil dealers wants to kill off his opposition, and siding with the opposition sure isn’t it.
I support this intervention, and I’m afraid that all your No Blood For Oil are belong to us.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:48 pm
@Ronc99:
Millions of you wannabe half-ass revolutionaries? Really?
Fess up, you’re the sort who couldn’t understand how Bush stole the election because everyone you knew voted for Nader, right? (Yes, shamelessly updated from the old Nixon/McGovern tale.)
March 31st, 2011 at 4:49 pm
After reading all of Obama’s lapdogs on here, with John’s endless ignorant rants on all matters of foreign policy, I’ve concluded that John Woo is John Cole. Stick that in your Jippy Pop microwaves and pop it, bitches!
March 31st, 2011 at 4:49 pm
@Steve Simels: Wow, nice call. Gladstone Gander indeed.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:50 pm
@Ronc99:
Worst.Troll.Ever.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:51 pm
DarrenG, another ObamaBot with his nose superglued to Obama’s black ass, strikes again!
March 31st, 2011 at 4:51 pm
@Ronc99: Protip:
John Woo.
John Yoo.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:52 pm
@Linnaeus:
(The “reply” function doesn’t seem to be working for me, so I’m replying “manually”)
You’re the 3rd or 4th person to say that to me in two days… Maybe it’s me? I’ve removed my overlong (and no longer funny) sub-tag, in case that’s what’s causing the problem somehow.
I don’t think it’s out of the range of reasonable thought to be concerned about how far any covert operation may go and whether those in turn lead to deeper involvement in other area.
That’s a fair point: I wouldn’t approve of CIA death-squads operating at will in Libya, either. But I don’t automatically assume that’s what ‘covert ops’ means here. (Keep in mind that “CIA aid” to the rebels could be as simple as telling them where the weapons are stockpiled, or giving them gas generators and antibiotics, etc—we have no way of knowing).
I guess it’s just how my mind works. When I read that the CIA was involved early on in the planning stages, I assume that means they were there to provide the admin. with whatever intelligence/assets they had in Libya, and to receive instructions as to how to use those assets.
Yesterday’s reports were just a big “DUH” moment for me. We have CIA assets in Libya, an oil state run by a lunatic with a history of supporting terrorism in the past? Really? Well, DUH.
And POTUS decided to leverage those assets to support our interests, before the bombing even started? Well, double-dog DUH. That’s their job.
I found the timing, and the resulting uproar, more interesting than the story itself.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:53 pm
CatLady,
WOOF WOOF!
March 31st, 2011 at 4:53 pm
@Ronc99:
Okay, for that alone, I proclaim you Worst BJ Troll Evah. Seriously, dude, if that was meant as a slur of some sort I just gotta say SLUR FAIL. First, that would make me a lesbian. Second, I wouldn’t be in the least insulted by that. Third, if you saw my hairdo, you’d know I get mistaken for a lesbian all the time (usually by actual lesbians) and consider it a compliment to be attractive to both sexes.
@Ronc99:
Ooooooo. I’ll bet he’s terrified. Who, exactly, are your “millions”? Firebaggers? I’m quite sure FireDogLake doesn’t get anything like that kind of traffic.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:53 pm
@Ronc99:
You seem to confuse childish, ignorant belligerence with insight. I assure you they are not the same thing at all.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:53 pm
Ronc99 sounds a little like a liberal version, spawn of BIRDZILLA to me, though with better spelling. Probly went to college, or at least finished troll school.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:54 pm
@Ronc99:
Hiiiiiii-ya!
March 31st, 2011 at 4:54 pm
@Wolfdaughter: Rand in the primary was explicitly against Iraq (but in favor of Afghanistan) but more relevantly, he has consistently claimed authorization of military force is Congress’s responsibility.
Why didn’t he object to the nonbinding resolution? I don’t know and he and his staff hasn’t really explained it. Paul supporters speculate he was not paying attention when the resolution came up. (I don’t think that’s actually how the Senate works).
March 31st, 2011 at 4:54 pm
@Judas Escargot: Reply restored. It was probably the quotation marks and/or apostrophe in the nick that was making “Reply” wig out.
(Wig out, like Rand Paul, get it?)
March 31st, 2011 at 4:55 pm
Gegs,
Gee, do I like get a gold star, Bahama Mama, for winning your delusional award? Enquiring minds wanna know!
March 31st, 2011 at 4:55 pm
Life’s too short to wade through this one. I just want a weather forecast for insanity (strong torrential showers today, with luck clearing by nightfall) and some warnings printed on mainstream media (“Objects in the News may be less volatile than they are made to appear.”) In a word, Shee-it.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:56 pm
“1.6 Gallons” – that’s the limit? Really? OMFG
Armed with that bit of Truth, I think it’s time for me to renounce Keynesian economics and assume that this onerous imposition will just go away if we go with another tax cut. 1.6 Gallons makes it impossible to flush even a paperback copy of Atlas Shrugged down my toilet, which is the standard I’ve been using as an effective flush measure.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:56 pm
@General Stuck:
I’m, personally, just glad to see him here. I’ve been in a bit of a testy frame of mind lately and a shitty, lame troll is just what I needed to take my irritation out on instead of random BJers who irritate me only sometimes.
March 31st, 2011 at 4:57 pm
@General Stuck: At troll school, as you learn to use each troll tool, it goes into your troll toolbox. At the end of the program, you’ve got a full box!
March 31st, 2011 at 4:57 pm
@Ronc99: OMG, this is so cool! I’ve loved your product ads since, well, way back when
March 31st, 2011 at 4:58 pm
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: Serious question. You supported this thing under the auspices we could be the good guys for once with Ayrabs and save them from themselves. How is that any different from this thing called “Humanitarian Imperialism” that you now abhor?
March 31st, 2011 at 4:59 pm
@Ronc99:
Sarah Palin, is that you?
March 31st, 2011 at 5:00 pm
@joe from Lowell: I agree with much of this. But it does leave out the possible calculation that if the present dictator is thrown out, a better deal might be possible with a new, pliable, dictator.
I do not know the details of nationalization of oil in Libya, and I do not think that this calculation has taken place – or turned out to say that going for the unknown devil is the best option.
But I do realize it MAY be part of the Europeans (and US)
calculation.
Also, remember that the population of Libya is less than that of North Carolina – but they have oil.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:00 pm
DarrenG,
I am not confused. I despise ObamaBots just like I did Bushitas and Clintonistas. What I find particularly humorous is most of you believing you are somehow the majority on Libya. As Judge Judge would proudly exclaim: WRONG
John Cole is a Republican. He’s no Democrat, in fact, he reminds me of Barack Hussein Obama. The GOP wasn’t enough for you all to destroy, you had to come back to the Democratic party and fucking destroy it, too! Well fuck you!
Oh and HI Joe from Lowell, keep up the great work!
March 31st, 2011 at 5:00 pm
@joe from Lowell:
“like both European countries and America”
There are only two European countries left? What, did somebody fire up the old Wehrmacht?
March 31st, 2011 at 5:00 pm
@geg6:
Well then, in that case, carry on Roncdude, you are providing a valuable blog service.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:01 pm
Brox Zoo Cobra is rescued before she is bitten by Donald Trump.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:01 pm
@jwest:
Zounds. This is the lamest yet simultaneously over-the-top Stuck of trollery I’ve seen on BJ in months.
Everybody knows: winners flush with Brawndo.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:04 pm
Geg,
Oh please, you are just like that nasty wench Hillary. You need men to complete you. Same standard applies to Mooseburger Helper and Michelle “I’m running for President, wheeeeeeeeeee!” Bachmann! You are not alone, so that explains your comfort level. Am not impressed :)
March 31st, 2011 at 5:04 pm
.
.
That is correct, because when President Obama does it, it is by definition legal.
Don’t even bother to look it up.
.
.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:04 pm
General Struck in the Mud,
Kiss my ass. Do what you DO, best! Thanks.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:06 pm
@Ronc99:
See? There’s that ignorant belligerence coming into play again.
Free clue: I have not expressed any opinion on Libya or Obama’s foreign policy here. And if you bothered to look at opinions I’ve posted elsewhere you would find that your “anyone who disagrees with me is a war-mongering OBot” accusation is laughable.
What I have offered an opinion on is your silly True Believer stance where you explicitly claim the Silent Masses are behind you, and anyone who disagrees is Evil, And Must Be Destroyed.
Your dogmatic and incorrect assumptions make you a poor representative of your beliefs.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:06 pm
Gawd, these trolls are boring. I want my credenza!
March 31st, 2011 at 5:08 pm
I’m losing the thread, is humanity on the good side or not?
March 31st, 2011 at 5:09 pm
@geg6: It’s been a testy few days. I had to drop the hammer on a few of the nannies. I’m still monitoring them for signs of recidivism.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:10 pm
@Studly Pantload, Vibrant Trollbot for Obama:
Of course there are. Old Europe and the Europeans. Donald Rumsfeld explained this years ago; where have you been?
March 31st, 2011 at 5:11 pm
thanks for this post John. ODonnell is right, the media have done a terrible job covering this. I didn’t even know the senate passed such a resolution until now!
March 31st, 2011 at 5:13 pm
@Judas Escargot:
True, and I’m not jumping to conclusions here (or, at least, I’m trying not to). I also agree that CIA involvement in a general sense is not especially surprising and necessary if for nothing more than providing decent intelligence. It’s when we expand things to operations that I get concerned. They might end up being nothing more than the the things you mentioned, but there’s a non-zero chance that they won’t. I don’t know how big that non-zero chance is, though. It could be quite low.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:13 pm
@geg6: And Atlanta.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:15 pm
@lacp:
I see what you did there.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:17 pm
@jwest: Could it possibly have to do with underfunded infrastructure and antiquated sewers? San Fran is, after all, one of our older cities.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:20 pm
@Ronc99: So, now we’re up to shoving things up men’s asses, holding forth on a p3nis-size-based theory, casual misogyny centered around women being yucky, analingus, and accusing several other men of being gay.
Hokay. “Yes, but that’s because I was concerned he might fall. The man’s pants were down around his goddamned ankles.”
March 31st, 2011 at 5:21 pm
@Chyron HR: You win the toobes for the day!!
March 31st, 2011 at 5:24 pm
@harokin:
Treaties, man; they’re law. If the UN authorizes action, our treaty obliges us to support. The Senate urged exactly that; I suppose Rand may not get it, but that doesn’t make him look any better.
March 31st, 2011 at 5:29 pm
@joe from Lowell:
I got Troll Bingo!!
March 31st, 2011 at 5:29 pm
@catclub:
I suppose it’s possible, but it’s not like Gadhaffi was making trouble on the oil front. It would be a pretty risk to take for what would be a minor “upgrade.”
March 31st, 2011 at 5:33 pm
@Ronc99:
drivel.
grow up mister
March 31st, 2011 at 5:54 pm
@Ronc99:
drivel.
grow up mister
March 31st, 2011 at 5:54 pm
After reading all of Obama’s lapdogs on here, with John’s endless ignorant rants on all matters of foreign policy, I’ve concluded that John Woo is John Cole. Stick that in your Jippy Pop microwaves and pop it, bitches!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDQaii0mzQ
Ronc99 on stage !!
March 31st, 2011 at 5:58 pm
@scav: Humanity is on both sides.
Unrelated: Are these the two worst trolls to ever appear together?
March 31st, 2011 at 6:00 pm
@agrippa:
Not so. I’m going to tell the story of who John is and how the blog started someday. It’s a fascinating story of love, betrayal and teen angst.
March 31st, 2011 at 6:07 pm
“Thanks. Thanks a lot, Senator. Now we know what you look like when you’re lying.”
A lot of good that’ll do us: we still don’t know what he looks like when he’s telling the truth.
March 31st, 2011 at 6:23 pm
@Just Some Fuckhead: i just saw the man behind the curtain. I couldn’t figure out A-stan, hiring skiddies and spammers to DDOS Wikileaks, torturing Manning, smearing Assange, suppressing the suicides at Camp No, supressing the Baghram pictures, suppressing the Gharani massacre video, blah blah blah.
But the light bulb went on when Mataconis hooked up UN doctrine and Libya.
It is all a part of the whole, homogeneous.
It is Just War Theory in a wal-mart suit.
We are fucking “humanitarians”, not meddling assclowns.
and lookit.
Qaddafi is gettin ready to kite. It was a bluff.
I stand by my intitial prediction. Done in two weeks.
Now i must return to sharpening my katana.
Is it kanshi or sokotsu-shi?
idk
March 31st, 2011 at 6:36 pm
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: Alright, but weren’t you arguing for humanitarian imperialism when you supported regime change?
March 31st, 2011 at 6:55 pm
....this thread is really not where I expected this post to lead to.
But, er, yay toilets!
I now quietly wait to be called gay for that :)
March 31st, 2011 at 7:00 pm
@jwest:
You are either young or blind or both. The idea that “the market” has all solutions is just plain facile and glib. Of course, the gummint (at whatever level) doesn’t have all the answers either. Sometimes private enterprise works best, but it’s not good for longterm solutions or those which require a lot of cooperation across competing jurisdictions or territories.
And as far a health care goes—if you or a near and dear one is having a heart attack, broken bones, bleeding out, etc., you take the nearest help you can get and worry about paying later. Also many treatments, surgeries, chemo and radiation for cancer, etc., are simply beyond the means of most people to pay out of pocket.
March 31st, 2011 at 7:06 pm
@Just Some Fuckhead: no. I saw Libya as a one-off. A perfect storm of initial conditions that would allow Obama to side with the muslim population for once.
But its not. It is the first application of the Obama Doctrine.
I lurved the guy. I worked on his campaign. I did campus GOTV and phone bank and canvassing.
Pardon me if im a little heartbroken right now.
What do you care?
you just asked me please to go ahead with my seppuku.
@Wolfdaughter: Free market solutions have destroyed America’s economy and America’s school system.
The invisible hand punched America’s working families with the Econopalypse and is choking America’s schools to death.
NCLB is a free market solution. Schools get funded for standardized test results.
March 31st, 2011 at 8:10 pm