This story is getting more and more bizarre.
Something is not adding up. That’s all I have the energy to say about it right now.
Watch the full episode. See more FRONTLINE.
(Transcript after the jump)
JUDY WOODRUFF: Next, we turn to the interview with the father of accused WikiLeaks source, Pvt. Bradley Manning.
Kwame Holman puts it in context.
KWAME HOLMAN: Pvt. Bradley Manning is the 23-year-old Army intelligence analyst accused of stealing thousands of classified government documents and providing them to WikiLeaks. He is in custody at the U.S. Marine brig in Quantico, Va., where he is confined to his cell 23 hours a day under what’s called a prevention-of-injury watch.
Last week, there was a change in his imprisonment. Manning was stripped of his clothing at night. Manning’s attorney, David Coombs, has reported the brig’s action followed his client’s complaint that the so-called prevention-of-injury restrictions on him were absurd. Manning said if he wanted to harm himself, he could do so with the elastic waistband of his underwear.
In an exclusive “Frontline” interview this week with correspondent Martin Smith, Bradley Manning’s father, Brian Manning, talked for the first time about his son’s incarceration.
MARTIN SMITH: You decided that you wanted to sit down and talk today because you want to complain publicly about the conditions of his imprisonment.
BRIAN MANNING, father of Pvt. Bradley Manning: Yes.
MARTIN SMITH: And those conditions are?
BRIAN MANNING: Well, he’s being — his clothing is being taken away from him, and he’s being humiliated by having to stand at attention in front of people, male or female that I — as far as I know, you know, that are fully clothed.
MARTIN SMITH: Who tells you that?
BRIAN MANNING: I read it in the statement that was put out by his civilian attorney.
I mean, this is someone that has not been — you know, gone to trial or been convicted of anything. And that’s prompted me to — you know, to come out and go forward. I mean, they worry about people down in — you know, in a base in Cuba, but here they are, have someone in, you know, on our own soil and under their own control, and they’re treating him this way.
I mean, it’s — you know, I just can’t believe — you just can’t believe it. I mean, it’s shocking enough that I would come out of, you know, our silence, as a family, and say, you know, now then this — you know, you have crossed the line. This is wrong.
KWAME HOLMAN: Today, the NewsHour asked the military for a response to Brian Manning’s assertions.
A statement from the Department of Defense said in part: “The circumstances of PFC Manning’s pretrial confinement are regularly reviewed, and complies in all respects with U.S. law and Department of Defense regulations.
“In recent days, as the result of concerns for PFC Manning’s personal safety, his undergarments were taken from him during sleeping hours. He was not made to stand naked for morning count, but on one day, he chose to do so. There were no female personnel present at the time. PFC Manning has since been issued a garment to sleep in at night. He is clothed in a standard jumpsuit during the day. None of the conditions under which PFC Manning is held are punitive in nature.”
In his interview with “Frontline,” Brian Manning says he saw no signs of suicidal intentions in his son.
MARTIN SMITH: How many times have you visited him?
BRIAN MANNING: Approximately eight or nine times.
MARTIN SMITH: During those visits, has he ever mentioned any complaint of any kind to you?
BRIAN MANNING: No. I always, you know, am conscientious enough to look him straight in the eyes and ask him a direct question. How are they treating you? Are you sleeping? Is the food OK? And he’s always responded that: Things are just fine.
MARTIN SMITH: How does he look?
BRIAN MANNING: He looks good.
MARTIN SMITH: And he doesn’t complain about being shackled?
BRIAN MANNING: No. He doesn’t complain at all about anything.
MARTIN SMITH: It wouldn’t be surprising for somebody in solitary confinement to be suffering a bit.
BRIAN MANNING: Oh, I’m sure.
MARTIN SMITH: It’s surprising to me that you described him as somebody who’s doing well.
BRIAN MANNING: He comes across to me as doing well.
MARTIN SMITH: He’s in solitary confinement. That’s tremendously difficult, psychologically and physically.
BRIAN MANNING: I understand that.
MARTIN SMITH: So, are you surprised that he’s doing as well as he is?
BRIAN MANNING: I’m happy that he’s doing as well as he is.
MARTIN SMITH: So, is there any reason that Bradley wouldn’t confide in you if things were tough for him there?
BRIAN MANNING: No.
KWAME HOLMAN: Brian Manning was himself in the service, the Navy, where he held a security clearance. Stealing and sharing classified information is wrong, he says, and the whole WikiLeaks situation angers him.
But he told Martin Smith he does not believe his son did what the Army has accused him of doing.
MARTIN SMITH: Does it surprise you that Bradley had access to this much information?
BRIAN MANNING: Yes.
MARTIN SMITH: And what will you say if it turns out that he leaked these documents?
BRIAN MANNING: I don’t know. I mean, I’m not even — I’m not even letting those thoughts come into my head. I’m thinking positively.
MARTIN SMITH: Is that always easy to do?
BRIAN MANNING: Yes.
MARTIN SMITH: You don’t think he had it in him to do this?
BRIAN MANNING: I don’t think that the amount and the volume of things and the environment he worked in, no, I don’t think so.
MARTIN SMITH: You don’t think it’s possible he — he could have had this kind of intent?
BRIAN MANNING: I don’t know why he would do that. I — I really don’t.
MARTIN SMITH: Was he patriotic?
BRIAN MANNING: I don’t think he followed any regime of any kind.
MARTIN SMITH: You don’t think he was a patriot of the United States?
BRIAN MANNING: I imagine he was just as much as you and I.
MARTIN SMITH: Well, you knew — he’s your son. You knew him. Was he patriotic?
BRIAN MANNING: It never came up. I mean, he never said anything anti-American.
MARTIN SMITH: He joined the Army.
BRIAN MANNING: At my twisting his arm, yes.
MARTIN SMITH: So, he joined the Army because you made him do it?
BRIAN MANNING: I didn’t make him. I twisted his arm and urged him as much as a father can possibly urge somebody.
MARTIN SMITH: He didn’t want to join the Army?
BRIAN MANNING: No, he did not. And he had expressed that.
MARTIN SMITH: Why did you make him — or why did you twist his arm to join the Army?
BRIAN MANNING: Because he needed structure in his life. He was aimless. And I was going on my own experience. When I was growing up, that’s the only thing that, you know, put the structure in my life was by joining the Navy. And everything’s been fine since then.
MARTIN SMITH: From talking to you, it doesn’t seem — I mean, you don’t wear your emotions on your sleeve. If you’re feeling something about his situation, I’m not hearing it.
BRIAN MANNING: There’s a certain point, you know, when — you reach where you can either accept things, you know, and — and try and do as much as you possibly can, and then there’s no point in dwelling upon it.
I mean, there relatively is nothing I can do at this point, except support him, you know, as a father would support a son that — that’s in this situation.
MARTIN SMITH: But that’s a very rational answer. Emotions don’t respond to that kind of logic.
BRIAN MANNING: Well, I guess I’m just a right-brained person. You know, I think logically.
MARTIN SMITH: But you raised this kid. You played with him. Now he’s sitting in a prison…
BRIAN MANNING: Right.
MARTIN SMITH: … facing severe penalties, very, very serious charges pending.
BRIAN MANNING: That’s correct.
MARTIN SMITH: I would guess that that is very hard to — to square.
BRIAN MANNING: Well, as I said, once — once you make the — the — can rationalize it to the point is that they’re — as I said, they’re — all the things I could possibly do, you have done, OK, and just wait for the next move on the chessboard.
I mean, all’s I can do is support him.
KWAME HOLMAN: More of Brian Manning’s interview will appear in a profile of his son Bradley in a special “Frontline” broadcast March 29, ahead of a documentary on WikiLeaks coming in May.
BGinCHI
I don’t have an opinion of Martin Smith, but I find the constant probing about “emotions” and family issues, about the father’s feelings and his son’s motivations to be very insidious and off point.
Sure, it’s interesting to know these things, but it seems that journalism in this country, particularly on TV, is only interested in a kind of “spectacle of confession” or something.
Isn’t the purpose of this interview to find out about Manning’s treatment and his state of mind? The questions sound like psychotherapy, and would be better served in that private context.
Maybe others will articulate this more clearly, but I find this digging into this stuff to be a sideshow compared to the principles at stake here, such as the rights of the accused, etc.
Wile E. Quixote
Wow, that is fucked up. Brian Manning is a fucking idiot. Seriously, the whole “join the military and get your shit together” belief is as stupid as anything the teabaggers (most of whom never joined the military) espouse.
I met guys at basic training who had been forced to join the military for this exact reason, some of them got their shit together, but that’s because they wanted to get their shit together and by chance the military was able to provide them with a framework to do so, but most of them were incredibly miserable and fucked up just as bad in the Army as they did as civilians.
I joined the Army because I wanted to and even then I was pissed off a lot of times at just how fucking stupid the organization was and thought more than once about fragging my drill sergeants at Fort Knox. I can’t imagine how pissed off I would have been if I had been forced to join.
goblue72
Clearly, father of the year material.
Culture of Truth
MARTIN SMITH: He joined the Army.
BRIAN MANNING: At my twisting his arm, yes.
Interesting…
he needed structure in his life. He was aimless.
He was had unlimited access to State Dept. cables…
cathyx
I read somewhere that Bradley Manning is gay. It wouldn’t be surprising if the dad wanted him to join in the hopes of it turning him straight, and maybe to toughen him up.
MattR
I am shocked that Bradley Manning wouldn’t complain to his father about the conditions of his incarceration. I am sure he knows he would get a symapthetic ear.
Villago Delenda Est
It’s pretty clear that by “aimless” Brian Manning means “failing to conform to my set of expectations”.
Bradley Manning’s detention is contrived to do just one thing: get him to squeal on Assange, whether it’s true or not. Which was pretty much the entire deserting fucktard/dark lord of the Cheney malassministration take on what to do about “high value” detainees in Gitmo.
I agree with Wile E. about this “join the military to get your shit together” line…for some people it works, and for others it does anything but work. Some troops under my command did not deal well the relative lack of structure of the “real Army” as opposed to the quite regimented atmosphere of basic and advanced training. I expected troops to act on their own initiative in regard to a lot of fairly minor things, and some needed constant supervision to get anything done. Fortunately I had some fine NCOs to provide necessary boot to tail to get things done, but it was an endless struggle to do so.
Alex S.
@cathyx:
I think so, too. And Manning probably shared the information to defy his father. This is just a giant tragedy where noone looks good.
http://gawker.com/#!5571388/was-wikileaker-bradley-manning-betrayed-by-his-queer-identity
Anonymous At Work
Beyond the “forcing the son into it”, the rest of the interview is bizarre as hell because either the son is confiding more in his lawyer than his father or his father is hiding/dismissing what his son is saying.
The Smell-Test is pinging something.
4jkb4ia
@MattR:
He is showing the discipline that his father wanted him to have.
Southern Beale
Y’all need to be watching 60 Minutes now, they are interviewing “Curveball.” The lunatic who convinced America to go to war and lied about WMDs.
BGinCHI
@Southern Beale: Who’s doing the interview?
Countdown till they get to “both sides do it.”
Or, hoocoodanode.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Villago Delenda Est:
And those expectations are?
From Manning’s bio at (granted) Wikipedia:
I’ll concede that getting kicked out of the house was probably traumatic, but he wasn’t forced to quit his job and leave OKC for Tulsa and a string of shitty, low-paying jobs, was he? I’d think that that lifestyle would commonly be viewed as aimless.
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
This is beginning to sound like something by Tennesee Williams or Eugene O’Niell.
MikeJ
@Southern Beale:
Lunatic is unfair. He’s not American. He wanted his government overthrown. *of course* he wasn’t acting in America’s best interest. Why would he?
stuckinred
The judge gave me my choice, jail or get on the train to Ft Campbell on your 17th birthday. I was shitty soldier except when I actually was called on to do what I consider soldier shit. The military took 100,000 a year, also known as the “moron corps” who didn’t meet minimum military requirements while the people with the means to pursue higher ed sat it out.
Part of the official rationale was that it was a “boot straps” to help the disadvantaged.
MattR
@MikeJ: Exactly. I have minimal, if any, illwill towards Curveball. He was doing what I would like to think I would have done in similar circumstances. The idiots who unquestioningly accepted his tale without accounting for his motivations are the ones who deserve our scorn, derision, hate, etc
General Stuck
This ought to be interesting, even more than it took ABL to post it when it should have been posted with the previous torture pron nonsense. It already starts off with cathyx being her usual douchebag self. right out of the shute.
cathyx
@General Stuck: What?!?
Southern Beale
@MattR:
Agreed. And let’s not for a moment harbor any delusions about what THEIR motivations were. I don’t think anyone cared whether Curveball was a delusional crackpot who cooked his lies up while in the midst of a LSD trip or if he had actual intelligence. All they knew was that it served their ultimate purpose, which was invading Iraq. That’s what they cared about.
Interestingly, I didn’t realize that Curveball spilled the beans to Germany, not the U.S., and the Germans are who passed the info on to the Americans. So it’s rather curious that when you look at who ended up invading Iraq Germany said no thanks, we don’t think this intelligence is credible, while the U.S. was all in.
Someday, 20 years from now maybe, we’ll finally be able to talk about this stuff. I sure hope it doesn’t get covered up because these are the lessons we need to learn.
Loneoak
Sounds like the shit a lot of gay kids from conservative areas go through. In general, young gay men are far more likely to end up homeless because their safety net is yanked away. Not that I’m a particularly aimless person, but my self-motivation was always buttressed by my parents support. If my dad were an asshole homophobe stuck in some hippy-punching mentality, (which he is not and I’m not gay), I’m sure I could have ended up aimless like Bradley. Maybe not in the Army, but you know what I mean.
Anyway, telling your gay son to join the Army to change his ‘lifestyle’ is a terrible idea, ranked only behind reparative therapy.
Also, fuck you Obama. You really do own this one.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Anonymous At Work:
Mine’s been pinging here, too, for some time. But probably for different reasons: No access to international news, but then House, via Hamsher, reports of Manning describing watching Harold Ford addressing the Egyptian protests- with no remarks that Manning is now allowed access to international news; House’s mid-December report that Manning hadn’t exercised outside in the yard for four weeks (in the late autumn/early winter in Northern VA), but was in the indoor “yard”. Greenwald reporting that Manning wasn’t allowed to exercise; the reports that the guards were checking on Manning every 10 minutes, even as he slept (not as he slept, it turned out)…
General Stuck
@cathyx:
What?
Are you really this stupid, or just spoofing us?
different church-lady
@Southern Beale:
Fix-anated.
MattR
@Southern Beale: IIRC, the Germans also told us that they didn’t believe Curveball when they were passing the information along. But as you said, Cureveball’s story fit the neocon agenda so none of that mattered.
Southern Beale
@MikeJ:
True he didn’t know an invasion would happen. In fact he did say he was shocked that the invasion happened based on his information. He had no idea how stupid and gullible we were. Actually, as I said above, we weren’t stupid and gullible. BushCo desperately wanted to invade Iraq for a number of oil-related reasons. He served our interests and we served his. Nobody could have anticipated how swimmingly the whole thing would go.
General Stuck
@Loneoak:
So now you idiots are going to blame the right wing for Manning’s behavior, insinuating that maybe his father is right wing, that is really to blame for Manning’s situation and alleged behavior? Am I reading this right ? Jeebus fucking christ.
And fuck you with the fuck you to Obama. Retards.
cathyx
@General Stuck: I don’t see what’s stupid about my comment, in fact, many posters here agree with the possibility. Please tell me why you think it is.
Mark S.
@Villago Delenda Est:
You’d think that would be obvious, but here it will get you accused of wearing a tinfoil hat.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Loneoak:
How so? As soonergrunt pointed out last weekend, if Obama gets directly involved in this on behalf of Manning, it gives an automatic appeal to every soldier, sailor or airman who’s been convicted since Obama’s presidency began, on the grounds that he didn’t intervene on their behalf.
Francis
IAAL, but not one who specializes in laws regarding detention. But here’s something to consider: if the terms of Manning’s detention were so clearly in violation of his Constitutional rights, where the @#$%# is the ACLU? Why hasn’t Greenwald reactivated his law license?
The filing window at federal court is open all the time. Why hasn’t someone filed a petition for writ of habeas corpus?
Loneoak
@General Stuck:
Really? First, you don’t even know what Manning’s behavior IS. He hasn’t even been fucking charged with the Wikileaks stuff, let alone convicted. How are you so certain that he’s guilty? The DOD and national security apparatus hardly has a stellar record on telling the truth about this stuff. Second, there is absolutely no moral justification for how he is being treated. None. Period. It’s torture and it’s deliberate. End of story. Third, did I say anything about the right wing?! For all I know his dad is a Democrat. He reminds me of my grandpa, honestly, who was a Democrat yet served in Navy and had some rather traditional heartlandish ideas about manhood. Fourth, Obama does own this. He specifically asked about Manning’s treatment and bought the story he was told. So fuck him. I thought better of him than to let an American ACCUSED of a crime be bureaucratically tortured.
Big City Mary
And I say, how far on a limb would you be willing to go for this President? How far????
cathyx
@Francis: His lawyer has.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Francis:
1). Manning is being tried under the UCMJ, not the civilian code.
2). Manning hasn’t gone to trial yet because his own lawyer asked for a sanity hearing, which, as I understand it, is a lengthy process in itself.
Mark S.
@Francis:
Can you use habeas corpus to challenge the conditions of your detention? I thought you could only use it to argue that the government shouldn’t be detaining you at all.
MikeJ
@Loneoak:
When he confessed to downloading documents, burning them to CDs, and singing Lady Gaga songs.
Loneoak
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Um, Obama owns it because he DID get directly involved. And then he specifically supported the way Manning is being treated. I wasn’t around for that thread, but perhaps what Soonergrunt meant was ‘if Obama intervenes on Manning’s side’, not just gets involved. Regardless, that claim makes little sense to me. No one is asking Obama to set the dude free, only to smack down the people torturing him. If other soldiers, airmen, marines, and seamen are being treated this way then I sure as hell hope Obama intervenes on their behalf anyway.
General Stuck
@cathyx:
Why don’t you give some evidence to prompt you to accuse the father of motives as such. It is not uncommon for fathers and families to urge their sons to join the military to get structure in their lives. It may not be a good thing to do, but making that jump to having a motive to turn his son straight is fairly loathesome. And if others on this thread are agreeing with this, then they as fucked up as you.
MattR
@General Stuck: I am not saying what happened, but the odds that his father urged him to join “to get structure” are pretty similar to the odds that his father urged him to join “to get the gay out”. You are very deeply in denial if you don’t think the latter attitude still exists in large quantites in this country.
Jrod the Cookie Thief
@General Stuck: That’s right! Jumping to conclusions about a person with limited evidence is just vile and wrong.
Unless that person has been known to support the Obama administration with anything less than tumescent glee. For those people, you must assume the absolute worst about their positions and intentions. Because shut up, that’s why.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Loneoak:
WHAT?
He was charged in July.
Additional charges were filed a couple of weeks ago.
Where did you get the idea he hadn’t been charged?
JPL
Palin’s son enrolled in the military with a questionable past.
It’s done all the time whether right or wrong.
Manning deserves his trial and imo, it doesn’t serve in his best interests to have his attorney delay it.
Wile E. Quixote
@General Stuck:
I grew up in a Navy town (Port Orchard, Washington) and know a bunch of people who believe the same stupid shit that Brian Manning does. It’s not a matter of being left or right wing as much as it is a matter of having a bunch of stupid and unrealistic beliefs about the military and about what constitutes manliness. To the extent that the right wing in this country is all about having stupid and unrealistic beliefs about everything this sort of thing is more prevalent among right wingers, but that’s about it.
So in short, yes, you’re reading it wrong and you should pull your head out of your ass and ask your doctor to increase whatever meds you’re on, unless of course they’re the ones that have completely fucked up your reading comprehension.
DougW
@MattR: Really? Compared to what the Bush administration did, there is nothing the Manning could have done to come within a bazillion light years… Bush is a war criminal that no one has the guts to go after (and now even he has no fly list, since their are other security organizations that want to go after the old regime.
Loneoak
@MikeJ:
Yet there is no evidence tying him to Wikileaks. Thus he hasn’t been charged with leaking it. It doesn’t look very good for him circumstantially, for sure. To me, he looks like some lost kid that has been abused by authority figures and is resentful. Maybe he did something very illegal. But General Stuck seems to think he should be fried on the spot and anyone who insists that there is any subtlety to consider is a traitorous-rightwing-blaming-Obama-hater.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Loneoak:
No, he hasn’t gotten directly involved. He was informed as to the situation. Getting involved means that he would have given orders to treat Manning in a certain way.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jrod the Cookie Thief:
Oooh, snap!
Don’t think the General will take it well, though…
The Sheriff's A Ni-
For those of us paying attention – paging soonergrunt – I think we can start figuring out what’s smelling where.
Manning outs himself to his family, gets kicked out of the house, wanders about aimlessly, then Dear Old Dad forces him to join the armed forces to ‘gain some focus’ and/or find a closet. This backfires spectacularly through basic and straight into deployment, leading into assault accusations. This would have led to a ‘get the fuck out of here’ discharge, but for reasons still unknown – and I’m still guessing lack of manpower – Manning gets access to the diplomatic cables. As his last fuck you to the military and Dad, he leaks the cables. And not stopping there, he goes out and tells Adrian Lamo all about it.
Oopsie. One all-expenses paid vacation to Quantico later, and here we are. I’m sensing a serial inability to defer to authority, save for his father – and even that only goes so far. I’m still left wondering how much of Manning’s issues in the brig are real or good defense lawyering, and if real, how much of it came as a result double-dog daring the military and how much of it is the military being a dick to someone who shiat all over his fellow comrades?
General Stuck
@Loneoak:
geeze, not this canard again. yes he has been charged with wikileaks stuff, and recently had a bunch more charges filed. He is awaiting trial
Go back and re read. I said “alleged behavior”. I take pains to not guilt the charged until conviction.
no it’s not. next question.
And your entire comment was a statement of kids in conservative homes, and included the unsubstantiated charge his father wanted him to join because he was gay, and to fix that. Maybe he did. But there is no evidence of that./@Loneoak:
LOL, that’s a new one. I feel that way sometimes reading the nonsense on blogs, and today, this one.
You are entitled to your feelings, but not your own facts, and your comment is near bereft of those.
Wile E. Quixote
@MattR:
You could assume that Stuck is deep in denial, or you could assume that he’s just a stupid twat. I prefer the latter myself, never attribute to denial what can be explained by willful stupidity.
Loneoak
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
I guess I missed the recent charges.
Villago Delenda Est
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
“Plausible deniability” strikes again.
different church-lady
@MikeJ:
OK, now I support the torture.
(It’s a JOKE, people, just a JOKE…..)
different church-lady
@General Stuck: Perhaps it’s not what you say. Perhaps it’s more the inimitable way you say it…
Loneoak
@General Stuck:
The meaning of ‘bureaucratically tortured’ is pretty obvious, dumbass. They take every technical excuse to make his life harder, using the impossibly thick bureaucracy of the military to hurt him every way short of shocking his testicles. Forcing someone to report for a head count nude every other hour in the middle of the night meets every definition of torture. Humans need to sleep. Humans need personal, bodily dignity. He is being denied those. He is being tortured.
General Stuck
@Villago Delenda Est:
I take it the way I always take the yammering of clowns, and I guess that includes you. You fuckwits got everything figured out to fit your preconceived notions of things. It is amusing to read, but has little substance other than a good anti obama wank.
@Wile E. Quixote:
Go to hell you whackjob piece of shit. My doctor told me to tell you that. moron.
cathyx
@General Stuck: I said “it wouldn’t be surprising if….” which to most people means it’s an opinion, not a fact.
But let me say that it must be very difficult for you to keep supporting the president and his positions with all that has been happening, and I give you a lot of chops for sticking with it. Your loyalty is exemplary. Your anger is justifiable given the excuses you need to keep coming up with in order to maintain the “it’s not and never will be Obama’s fault.” It would wear on the best of us. Good for you.
Villago Delenda Est
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
Well, that’s the line the authoritarian asshats would want you to follow, sure.
Obviously, Manning is getting his FTA revenge. Plays well in the press.
But the fact is, people at the top were embarrassed. One of the things I learned in the Army is that once you get to a certain level, the institution will defend you against all but the most egregious (and truthful) accusations. Manning embarrassed a lot of people at the top with those leaks, if he’s indeed responsible for them. This is payback.
General Stuck
@Loneoak:
Ha” who is the dumbass? You came here claiming he hadn’t been charged with the “wikileaks stuff”. Idiot/ Even my Parakeet has been briefed on that falsehood. Emo Clown.
Wile E. Quixote
@General Stuck:
It’s “right out of the chute” you ignorant douchebag.
otto
I haven’t made any comments anywhere about this Manning detention.
It is difficult to accept at face value all of the stories from his Hamsher and House. That’s a normal reaction that anyone should have to anyone who is admittedly biased in their writing and activism.
I don’t mind bias at all. I read liberally biased sites all the time, but if something is asserted, but it is only asserted by people with an interest in the activism associated with the issue, then I have to wait for more information. (Sweet run on sentence.)
This interview is creepy, to say the least. I question both the stories I hear from Hamsher/House, but this interview also doesn’t give me any confidence that the Father wouldn’t deny any indication of poor treatment. It seems from reading this that the situation between Father and Son is at least contentious, but more likely it’s a situation of personal disappointment that the father has with his child.
I also recognize how the Father probably doesn’t want to admit that there is anything serious between the two. I wouldn’t be surprised if Bradley Manning stopped talking with his Dad about anything serious more than 10 years ago.
Strange strange.
General Stuck
@Wile E. Quixote:
Oh my! A typo. You got me good whackjob piece of shit.
Wile E. Quixote
@General Stuck:
It’s spelled “loathsome” you loathsome sack of shit.
stuckinred
@Villago Delenda Est: shit rolls downhill
Villago Delenda Est
@General Stuck:
Well, I guess you told me!
I’ll go crawl back under a rock, duly chastised, with a big shit eating grin on my face.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Villago Delenda Est:
How about the line Manning and his defense attorney wants you to follow, or do we only go hunting for hidden subtexts when its the government?
different church-lady
@Wile E. Quixote:
Spayed.
stuckinred
can’t we all get along?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Villago Delenda Est:
Why would anyone involved on the prosecution side of this want to see anything happen that would give Manning grounds for appeal? The only leverage they have is a lengthy sentence. I’m pretty certain that the sanity board is a last-ditch effort on Coombs part to get Manning off- short of that, the best course of action Team Manning can take is make as much noise as possible about the “torture” Manning is undergoing, in hopes of overturning a guilty verdict in the future or shortening the length of Manning’s sentence.
The way of got it figured, the Army has Manning nailed. The kid left too many fingerprints, and he chatted with someone about it. When the sanity board hearing finds Manning fully competent, the kid is going to sing to get his sentence halved.
Wile E. Quixote
@General Stuck:
“guilt the charged?” WTF? This sounds like something that George W. Bush would have said.
General Stuck
@cathyx:
Anger? teehee. Why would I be angry with a fencepost? You are amusing at best. When Obama gets reelected, it will drive you nitwits insane after 6 more years. I figure to see a grand firebagger/teabagger collusion of fools. And who knows? Maybe Cole will join you. If he hasn’t already.
different church-lady
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: You need to understand something about internet politics: everything single thing that happens is irrefutable proof of what a person already believes.
Tony
@Wile E. Quixote: Fuck you! You asshole!
General Stuck
@Wile E. Quixote:
And what do you think that statement means. Mr. grammar nazi?
Not guilt them, means not judging them guilty before conviction. back to grammar nazi school for you.
Villago Delenda Est
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
The Army may have Manning nailed on the charges, but the detention is about ‘flipping’ him on Assange, whether or not it’s true.
That’s what this entire detention thing is all about, it’s very obvious. It was done to Caspar Weinberger, to get him to flip on George H.W. Bush, who then preempted the entire process by granting Weinberger a pardon. No personal motivation there, no siree! Manning unfortunately isn’t in the same situation. Assange doesn’t have pardon power…
cathyx
Manning has not been charged with anything related to wikileaks.
different church-lady
@Wile E. Quixote: Your value-added has reached the point of diminishing returns here.
Tony
@General Stuck: I will drink their tears with pleasure!
Wile E. Quixote
@General Stuck:
Wow, you’re a pissy little bitch today Stuck. It’s not just a typo, it’s the fact that in addition to your many other faults you’re too stupid to enable spellcheck in your browser.
Villago Delenda Est
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
It’s the “shiat all over his comrades” nonsense. Manning shiat all over the people at the top. Time for some action on that!
General Stuck
@Wile E. Quixote:
We finally founding something you are good at. Spelling. I bow to your eminence of righteous grammar. You got nothing else though.
Jason In the Peg
No fuck you!
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@different church-lady: What is the old saying, oh right: I CAN’T LEAVE NOW, THERE’S SOMEONE WRONG ON THE INTERNET.
Admittedly guilty as charged here. I can roll both ways that Manning’s treatment is wrong, yet I can’t shake the feeling he’s doubling down on the stupid and bringing this on himself. At some point we need a discussion on how we treat the accused and convicted in this country, but I don’t think we’ll be getting there during any of these discussions.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Villago Delenda Est: Right. Has anyone checked with our rank-and-file enlisted men on their opinions about Manning and how they feel on what he’s been accused of doing?
General Stuck
@Wile E. Quixote:
You came after me whackjob. And then delivered some idiot anecdote from your miserable childhood, as some kind of litmus for everyone.
different church-lady
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: Randall missed the boat on this one: in reality, everyone is wrong on the internet.
General Stuck
@Villago Delenda Est:
That’s only cause Wily Whackjob is crawling under the same rock.
Corner Stone
Oh, poor Angry Clown Lady. Even after all your very special bolding this thread just doesn’t seem to be going the way you wanted.
General Stuck
Now everyone together
MANNING’S WINGNUT FATHER MADE HIM JOIN THE ARMY TO CURE HIS GAYNESS
AND
OBAMA IS TORTURING POOR BRADLEY AND WON’T LET HIM WEAR UNDERWEAR.
There now, all better aren’t we. Please do the world a favor and officially make this a primary Obama blog, so the idiots that post here will feel at home.
Yutsano
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: Do yourself a favor: do NOT mention the Manning case to any active duty military personnel. Every single one I’ve braved to bring it up with has left me an earful and they all said don’t let me get hands on him. I have no idea how they will get a panel for his court-martial.
Also: where’s ABL? She knew what the hell she was leaving on the lawn here. I need to have a few words with that woman.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Corner Stone:
Stay classy, Ratfucker.
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
So the bigot who kicks him out gets to characterize his gay son’s aftermath as “aimless”.
Honestly, those string of shitty jobs and living conditions sound like a couple kids I know. Of course, one has a PhD and the other a MechEng degree, so I guess we can’t call their decisions “aimless”, eh?
sherifffruitfly
Wait a minute. So is he being tortured, or not?
Corner Stone
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: No problem. Thanks!
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Villago Delenda Est:
Then is his own lawyer in on this detention thing? He’s the one who requested a sanity board, which is why the process has been taking so long.
goblue72
@Wile E. Quixote: No kidding. Apparently the fact that his father kicked him out of the house because he was gay is completely irrelevant. Because, you know, a father who would tell his son to hit the road because of his sexual orientation couldn’t possibly be a complete ass-backwards douchebag.
cathyx
@General Stuck: Why do you fear electing a better democrat than Barack Obama?
General Stuck
Ten percenters, pfft. Who needs them.
Corner Stone
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
Nice. He deserved it because he was wearing something provocative? Oh, that’s right. He wasn’t wearing much of anything at all.
Ben
It seems Bradley does not trust his own father. They certainly don’t have a close relationship. Unfortunately, his father is not aware of this.
different church-lady
@cathyx:
General, let me handle this…
A: Because we have to elect (and live through) a Republican president before that can happen.
Corner Stone
@Ben:
His father is incredibly aware of this. It’s radiating off of him in that video.
General Stuck
@cathyx:
You are an idiot. I tell you what, you get behind a man/woman to beat Obama in the primary, and I will vote for them. Right after I catch a ride with that pig in the sky.
I was for whoever the dems nominated in 2008, and would be the same in 2012. I like Obama, I like more having a dem in the WH. You fuckers confuse that with some dreamed up Obama lover bullshit, and why we won’t let you lay shit on his doorstep that isn’t justified. And in your case, and others, for some fantasy there is a dem out there, no doubt preferably white, that can be the progressive hero you pine for. It is nonsense, but I believe in primaries, so hop to and saddle up a horse/pony
sherifffruitfly
I still don’t get it.
a) Is Manning being tortured or not?
b) Apparently some here are saying that Manning is lying to his dad, but telling the truth about being tortured. How do people here know which one Manning is lying about, and which one he is telling the truth about?
different church-lady
@sherifffruitfly: Apparently you and I are the only two people on the internet who don’t know the ABSOLUTE TRUTH™ about Bradley Manning’s situation.
cathyx
@different church-lady: I’m assuming you meant we have to live through a republican president before that can happen. No we don’t. We can elect a democrat who has real progressive principles, not a bait and switch one like Obama. I don’t care what race he is, all I care about is what he really stands for. We still have time to have someone come to the forefront.
General Stuck
@different church-lady:
LOL, no doubt. But after 3 years of listening to this sorry bullshit, I don’t have any more patience, and sometimes just let it all hang out, like today. I like this blog, though not as much as I once did. But I most certainly don’t like it more than keeping a dem in the WH. Obama torturing Manning is bullshit and every time it is written down, it is a tiny dagger in keeping Obama or any dem in the WH. Fuck em. let gawd sort em out.
different church-lady
@cathyx: The odds of a new democratic nominee winning the general election after defeating Obama in the primary are absurdly slim.
Having principles is admirable, but the real world is the real world.
(PS: yes, you figured out my typo correctly, and I didn’t fix it until after your response.)
Omnes Omnibus
@JPL:
I think this is one of those situations where I would defer to the judgment of Manning’s attorney over that of some dude on the ‘net. YMMV.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Corner Stone: Admission of being a Ratfucker is the first step.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@goblue72:
Sure…If that’s exactly why he kicked Bradley out of the house.
Unfortunately, that’s from a book, not a magazine article that I can easily link…But I wonder who the authors’ source was for this bit of information and how much the truth might have been perverted. Did dad kick him out because he was gay, or because he was an 18- or 19-year old kid who was staying out all night clubbing? Did it really have anything at all to do with the father’s view of the son’s sexuality, or is that the way the son spun it to his friends?
And you know what I find funny about this comment of yours? While most of Manning’s supporters seem to admit that he did that of which he’s accused and are willing to forgive him for altruistic reasons, his father believes the kid is innocent and yet gets called “a complete ass-backwards douchebag”.
Corner Stone
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: I appreciate your concern, and it has been noted Citizen. Thanks!
goblue72
@different church-lady: Considering we are taking the word of a guy who kicked his son out of the house for being gay, the possibility that the father is lying escapes you?
General Stuck
@Tony:
LOL
different church-lady
@goblue72: Who’s this “we” you’re talking about?
I’m not taking anyone’s word for anything. In case you somehow completely missed the point of my post (and my other posts on this page): I have NO IDEA what the truth is. I have NO TRUE WAY of knowing what the truth is. And apparently I’m the only one who’s willing to admit that.
Which makes me two things: 1) Honest, and 2) Completely unsuited for the internet.
Stillwater
With threads like this Cole is gonna have to find himself a new blog.
sherifffruitfly
Soooo…. Obama is a torturer because Manning’s dad doesn’t like teh gheys?
Is that about the sum of all the hurfdurfing?
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@different church-lady:
We lived through Eisenhower and got Kennedy.
We lived through Nixon and got Carter.
We lived through Reagan and got Clinton.
We lived through Bush and got Obama.
But I’m sure we’ll get a True Progressive next time!
Wile E. Quixote
@different church-lady:
Are you kidding? I love watching Stuck foam at the mouth. OK, it’s cheap amusement, and let’s face it, making him lose his shit is about as hard as making a teabagger lose theirs, but sometimes that sort of thing is a lot of fun. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel, but without the resulting piscine messiness.
Stuck is a stupid piece of shit who started this with his pissy little statement about Cathyx. I don’t know what Cathyx did to piss him off but the fact that Stuck feels compelled to defend the honor of Brian Manning says a lot about his character, or complete and utter lack thereof.
Brian Manning is a stupid asshole. I have no difficulty in believing that an asshole who says something as stupid as
is also the kind of homophobic asshole who would believe that he could make his son straight if he got him to join the Army.
Brian Manning is also an asshole for inflicting his son upon the Army. I hated serving with guys who were forced to join by their parents because most of them were miserable fuckups who made everyone around them miserable. As an officer I served under put it “The big green machine is not a fucking social program.” If you believe the military can make up for your failures as a parent you’re an asshole.
I sincerely doubt that Stuck cares one way or another about Bradley Manning. He only engages in this sort of thing because he’s desperate for attention and is a pissy little contrarian. As such he deserves all of the mockery and scorn sent his way.
different church-lady
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: You’re kinda missing my point — a “true progressive” is not going to directly replace Obama in the White House. Ain’t gonna happen. Either you’ll have a complete democratic collapse in 2012 (during which the GOP wins), or you’ll have to wait for 2016, at which point the true progressive will need to knock off Joe Biden.
I didn’t make these rules.
different church-lady
@Wile E. Quixote: I don’t care about cheap shots as much as I like to see entertaining boxing. Grammar-taunting is not entertaining. Your post at 120 is.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@different church-lady: Not completely disagreeing, just poking a little reality at cathy’s idealism. And I don’t see Joe running in 2016. ;)
different church-lady
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: Ah, got it now.
(PS: it gives me no joy “poking reality” at idealism. But sometimes the job needs to be done.)
Hawes
Has Manning himself had any affidavits saying that he’s being abused? Has he ever testified under oath that he’s being abused?
Is our only source on his abuse his lawyers?
He’s been arrested and indicted and placed in a jail. I know we love to hate on authority, but what prosecutor in his right mind tortures an American serviceman for weeks on end? All it takes is one of the guards to say, “Yeah, we kept him naked and forced him to parade in front of people.” for the case to get shitcanned.
All Obama said is, “I have been informed that he’s being treated well.” And his lawyers say he’s being abused.
Either someone is lying to Obama to cover their ass or his lawyers are lying to gin up support for their client.
General Stuck
@Wile E. Quixote: @different church-lady:
Yes, it was. It could use a General Fakename Crackpot reference, to Mclaren grade it up some. But not bad. Fairly breathless, scorched earth, and some decent neg metaphors. I give it a solid B, maybe B+.
I just hope I spilled everthang write.
Hawes
@Wile E. Quixote: I know lots of guy, peers and former students, who got their lives straightened out in the military. The one regret I have is not doing the same and wasting about half a decade in my early twenties.
My dad shipped me off to boarding school against my will, because it worked for him. Best thing to ever happen to me and I now teach at the same school. Brian Manning may not be Father of the Year, but he did what he thought was best for his son. It may have been wrong, but parenting is too complicated to judge from the sidelines.
Wile E. Quixote
@cathyx:
I keep hearing about this mythical “better Democrat” and I have to wonder who he or she is? Was it Howard Dean in 2004? Was it Hillary Clinton in 2008? John Edwards? Or perhaps it was Mike Gravel. Is it Buddy Roemer in 2012? I’ve been seeing a lot of banner ads for him lately.
Corner Stone
@Hawes:
That, IMO, is highly debatable.
henqiguai
@different church-lady (121):
Doubtful. In 2016 Biden will be 74. So, start that wish list diary now, ’cause magic ponies need a lot of grooming…
NovShmozKaPop
Oh crap. That kid never had a chance.
Hawes
@Wile E. Quixote: Yeah, John Edwards. We all loved him. OK, some more than others and one more than all, but still…
Bill Clinton was a better Democrat, remember his awesome health care program and when he saved welfare? How he never caved to business interests?
Remember how Jimmy Carter didn’t increase defense spending or begin deregulation?
Remember how Lyndon Johnson kept us out of Vietnam and shut down COINTELPRO?
Remember how Kennedy… OK, Jack didn’t do shit besides Marilyn.
I guess Harry Truman was the last good Democrat? Or do we count NSC-68 against him? The Loyalty Oaths…
Maybe FDR! Remember what the Socialists said about whether FDR was carrying out the Socialist agenda: “Yeah, on a stretcher.”
I guess William Jennings Bryan was the last good Democrat.
And he didn’t get elected to anything either.
cathyx
@Wile E. Quixote: Well, if the “mythical” democrat does surface, and all of the Obama-defenders got on board with voting for this candidate, that person would most likely win.
Corner Stone
@Hawes:
Here’s a link to Manning’s rebuttal:
Rebuttal
Hawes
@Corner Stone: It’s debatable certainly whether he did what was right for his son. I would join those who say he did not. But that’s different from saying he went out to specifically screw his son over.
The military worked for him. He had a son he couldn’t understand. He hoped it would work for him.
I’ve got a son who vexes the hell out of me – much, much younger than Manning – and I struggle every day with how to get him on a path that will lead him to a better future.
And I know I’ve fucked up as much as I’ve succeeded. In the moment it might seem right, even with due consideration it might seem right. But it might not be.
Unless Brian Manning beat his kid or psychologically abused him, his mistakes are his mistakes. Absent more evidence, I’m not going to judge.
dogwood
How anyone watched that interview and determined the father kicked Manning out because he was gay, is beyond me. Talk about constructing narratives to match your political bias. Thousands of parents convince their sons to join the military when they seem to be without direction and discipline. Not something I’d do, but pretty common nonetheless. However, it does concern me that someone so young and inexperienced could have access to the materials he allegedly leaked. If he did leak, the kid is in trouble. I do suspect, however, that the outrage by the far left has nothing to do with Manning or his treatment. They’re just whipping up a faux
frenzy so they can attack the president.
Sly
We all know that Barack Obama will be the second President in history to secure a third term. Why do you think he’s not using the BULLY PULPIT to get the Sturm und Drang Brigade what they want? He’s obviously storing up its awesome power for the effort to repeal the 22nd Amendment.
MikeJ
@henqiguai:
It’s important to document the ways we’ve been betrayed by somebody we haven’t even picked yet.
Wile E. Quixote
@Hawes:
The people you know who got their lives straightened out by joining the military had two things going for them, they wanted to get their lives straightened out and were fortunate that the military provided them with an environment that worked for them to help them get their lives straightened out. You seem to be under the impression that the military is some sort of wonderful, miraculous machine that takes troubled kids and turns them into upright, outstanding citizens. It’s not. I know guys who were pushed into the military because someone, a parent or a judge, thought that it would force them to straighten their lives out and who were absolutely miserable and no better off, if not worse off, because they were dishonorably discharged, for the experience.
Hey, my Dad had polio as a kid, it paralyzed his legs and overcoming it made him incredibly tough and resilient. Despite that he still got vaccinations for his children. Parenting based upon “I went through ‘X’ and turned out OK, therefore putting my children through ‘X’ means that they’ll turn out OK” strikes me as being thoughtless and unimaginative at best and downright stupid at worst.
JMY
@different church-lady:
I got criticized in the other thread when I said the same thing. But no, I’m taking the side of the military apparently.
Hawes
@Corner Stone: Interesting read. My guess from reading it is that the guards hate his guts. Whether it’s because he allegedly leaked the cables or because he may or may not be gay, I can’t hazard to guess.
But they clearly seem intent on making him miserable. Interesting how the dress down happened after the Hamsher inspired protest at the gates. Manning at the very least fed them a pretense with the “strangle myself with my waistband” comment. And they jumped on it like Tony Siragusa on a porkchop.
It also reads that he’s no longer naked at night, though he probably has to wear some sort of smock (paper?).
I can’t say if the guards are harassing him or the system is trying to break him down. And I think what they are doing to him is wrong.
But I can’t call this “torture”. Abuse of authority, yes. But if that’s his complaint, it doesn’t strike me as torture, but maybe I’ve lived in John Yoo’s Amerika too long.
Hawes
@Wile E. Quixote: Riiight. Getting polio is the same as joining the military or going to boarding school. Debilitating life threatening illness=structured environment.
I work with kids. Some are desirous of fucking up and some just can’t get out of their own way. Once again, I’m not saying that what Brian Manning did was RIGHT for his son. I’m saying it could certainly have LOOKED RIGHT from the perspective of a parent with a son who looked to be lost.
I can’t say with certainty, knowing the kids who joined the military, which ones it would work for and which ones it wouldn’t. We had an amiable fuck up of a kid get into Annapolis for sports and nearly win a Rhodes. We had another kid pass up Harvard for Annapolis and wash out before Christmas. Never. NEVER would have predicted that.
The point isn’t that Brian Manning made the wrong choice regarding his son. The point is that he had reason to believe it was the right one. Being wrong doesn’t make someone evil.
different church-lady
@Hawes:
Should your son ever find himself in the center of a national controversy, it will be important to remember that what matters the most is not whether you did right by your son, but whether his circumstances support our preconceived political positions.
/ironic voice
different church-lady
@JMY: Earlier today over at the Great Orange-and-white-space Satan I was surprised to discover I taking the side of the bansksters because I thought certain Kossacks were silly to put so much faith in Anonymous.
Corner Stone
@Hawes: His rebuttal is just a response to the latest series of events. If his claims are true then it’s obvious they’re fucking with him, but good.
The old “yes” no “aye” routine is a classic ballbuster.
The humiliation and forced nudity, which I believe to be true, combined with concerted efforts to mentally break him by placing him in solitary confinement do amount to torture.
It goes beyond a little ballbusting.
Corner Stone
@Hawes:
Granted, parenting is without a doubt too difficult to fit into a comments section here.
I vexed the hell out of my dad as well. I’m sure that’s a common refrain here as well as across the internets.
But again, IMO, if Brian did kick his son out because he was gay then I don’t feel like listening to too much the man has to say now.
Darnell From LA
Listening to this interview, and reading the blog of Pvt Manning’s defense attorney, it becomes pretty fucking clear: Dude IS NOT being tortured. And his jailers are trying to keep him from wacking himself prior to his trial.
If Manning kills himself in detention, the Obama hating (but ABSOLUTELY NOT RACIST!) Greenwald, Hamsher and DailyKos will gladly turn Manning into Barack Obama’s Vince Foster.
(Serious, don’t even accuse white liberals of being racist. You can call the President liar and a failure any time you like, but accusing white Liberals like Hamsher and DailyKosters of racism is WAY OUTTA line!)
And, Manning IS NOT a whistleblower. Get that straight. A whistleblower exposes a specific instance, or instances of injustice. A whistleblower does not just download every record, cable, report and other data in a server and then turn it all over to a website. That’s called being a “hacker.”
eemom
@stuckinred:
I think that would be no.
Tim
@Wile E. Quixote:
I think it’s pretty clear that General Schtupped is drunk tonight. Either that or his meds are out of whack again. Or both. Or maybe the hemmhorroids caused by the cheap naugahyde on his medicaid scooter are acting up again, and the Oxycontin pain killers are doing their job all too well.
fledermaus
If only the sultan knew what the vizer was doing
Darnell From LA
@goblue72: Oh lord. So now the dad is lying. His own defense attorney has said the guards are behaving “professionally”, but that’s all wrong.
Manning is being tortured by Obama (and somehow by Rahm), and that’s final!
And repeat after me: There is no racism on the left.
Liberals have black friends.
Liberals even eat at the same table
w/ black people sometimes.
Bottom line, whenever you read those commenters on Dailykos, Firedoglake, or Balloon-Juice who constantly tear into Obama, remember…those commenters just LOVE black people. Really. Black people, all the time. They can’t get enough of them.
Jrod the Cookie Thief
@Darnell From LA: Yup, everyone who has any problem with anything the government does now is a racist. Sounds about right.
And around and around the bend we go.
Corner Stone
@Darnell From LA:
That’s just a damn specious charge Darnell. Some of my best friends are black!
glasnost
I don’t think what Bradley Manning is going through constitutes torture. It’s wrong, it’s doubly-wrong pretrial, it’s indecent, etc, and I understand the effects of solitary, but I think torture is degraded by conflating it with abuse or humiliation. Humiliation
=torture. Down that rabbit hole lies craziness.Having said that, the racism-baiting on this thread is disgusting. Frankly, I find myself verging on wishing we hadn’t elected a black president for reasons that have literally nothing to do with his behavior or personal qualities – just so the trolls would shut the fuck up.
I don’t like racists, racism, or stereotypic and/or insulting generalizations towards minorities, so I don’t enjoy realizing that reading too much complete bullshit racism-baiting makes me start to feel the conservative POV. Way to act like living rightist cariacutures, folks.
cat48
Shithead #3 - formerly Gen Stuck
@cat48:
It’s about Obama, and nothing much else.
Peter
Stuck you are sounding like a better-punctuated version of matoko-chan in this thread. Take a step away from the keyboard and take a deep breath.
Admiral_Komack
@Darnell From LA: Pvt. Bradley Manning is right where he belongs.
Shithead #3 - formerly Gen Stuck
@Peter:
Kiss my ass. And i spelled it write.
Shithead #3 - formerly Gen Stuck
@Admiral_Komack:
Yes, but I support him having underwear.
Uloborus
@different church-lady:
May I say I’m delighted to have another person who does not believe that ‘it’s obvious’ is the same as something being true? The military tells one story. The lawyer and the liberal interviewers tell another. Both sides are very, very biased. I lean against ‘he’s being deliberately tortured’ only because one of the specific allegations – no sheets and no pillow – were shown to be utter bullshit when it turned out that he had two blankets and a pillow built into the mattress (but hey, they’re not sheets or a pillow). But even then, if good evidence comes out that he’s being treated as harshly as the worst suspicions, I’ll buy it. Right now we have a he-said-she-said, and I trust both sides exactly as far as I can throw them.
‘It’s obvious what the government’s doing to him’ is not an argument, it’s a display of prejudice.
FlipYrWhig
@cat48: I was starting down that road in the other thread, then had to do some stuff, and I feel like if I try to read my way back through it my brain will drip out my left ear. But, like you, I would prefer to reserve the word “torture” for a different class of indignity than what I’ve gathered has been visited upon Manning.
It seems to me quite likely that Manning is being given a hard time when possible, and that he is being treated capriciously. It also seems to me quite likely that Manning is a smart-ass, like McMurphy in _Cuckoo’s Nest_. (The naked-attention stunt, presuming he did it willingly rather than being forced to do it, is actually pretty funny.) So _the way it looks to me_ Manning is being jerked around to an extent (point for Manning), and Quantico is adhering to the letter of the policy (point for Quantico).
I don’t think people in any kind of jail _should_ be treated in a deliberately humiliating fashion (see Arpaio, Joe). On the other hand, I’m not sure the way Manning is being treated proves very much about Obama and civil liberties policy, any more than the fact that Allen Stanford got beaten to a pulp in the federal pen proves very much about Obama’s view of financial fraud cases.
Darnell From LA
@Jrod the Cookie Thief:
Of course. Racism in America ended at 12:01pm on January 20th 2009. None of the unprecedented vitriol towards Obama has anything to do with racism.
And we all know racism simply does not exist on the left of the political spectrum!
And for the record, slave owners often regarded their house staff as “friends.” Hell, they even referred to them as “mammy!”
So remember folks;
Liberals = 0.00000000% racism. FACT!
Jrod the Cookie Thief
@Darnell From LA: So, what you’re saying is that you’re unable to recognize any state that lies between “racism no longer exists” and “everyone who criticizes the government is an Obama-hating racist.” It’s one or the other!
What you’re saying is that you’re a simple-minded goon. Yeah, we already know, but thanks for the confirmation.
different church-lady
@Uloborus:
You may say so. May I say your saying so has been the hilight of my day?
@cat48: I find it interesting from this angle: many people (myself included, at first) think of “torture” as something physical — beating, hanging, etc. This is a natural starting position, based on history. But have we reached a point in our understanding of human psychology where we can create tortuous effects without touching the corporeal being?
And if we accept that proposition, do we then go down a slope where many of the things common to incarceration can then be defined as torture?
I don’t have answers to these questions, even for myself.
From my view much of the conflict on this topic comes from the battles we have over the definitions of words and concepts, which can sometimes be the very roots of our belief system. I find the debate over “mistreatment” vs. “torture” to be somewhat similar to my journey from “civil unions” to “gay marriage.” At first I could not accept the idea of gay marriage, not because I was anti-gay, but because I was hung up on the “definition” of the word marriage: “Give ’em all the same stuff, but you can’t change the meaning of that word!” Fortunately I quickly realized that was a silly thing to be hung up on. But obviously a lot of other people (our president included) haven’t gotten past it yet.
So, I guess some people will look at what’s going on and think, and others will look at what’s going on and scream. And we may never really know who was right.
Shithead #3 - formerly Gen Stuck
@Darnell From LA:
You are spot on Darnell. this blog isn’t the worst of them for subtle and sometimes not so subtle racism, but it is getting there.
FlipYrWhig
@different church-lady: A valid point, but it’s also IMHO similar to the way feminists bristle at “rape” being used as a metaphor or analogy. “Torture” should be that way too. YMMV.
FlipYrWhig
@different church-lady: Also, it seems to me that part of the force of referring to Manning’s treatment as “torture” is that that way you can say Manning = Padilla = Guantanamo = Abu Ghraib, and, by extension, Obama = Bush. The word is like the keystone to that explicit or implicit argument.
different church-lady
@FlipYrWhig: Heavens! Surely nobody would ever be THAT devious in their rhetoric, would they?!?
Darnell From LA
@Jrod the Cookie Thief:
There is a clearly delineated line between one who considers individual situations based on the facts and context of that particular situation, and one who reflexively displays a level of distrust, contempt and disrespect that is completely untethered and divorced from anything resembling an honest appraisal or judgment of a given situation.
There are 2 possible causes for this type of behavior we see on comment boards of supposed “liberal” blogs.
1) A toxic personal relationship that colors an individual’s judgment of a person and their decisions.
or
2) Absent any kind of intimate, personal relationship, a distrust and contempt based on identity alone (i.e. bigotry). And what part of Obama’s identity is the most probable to be noted by his angriest, most irrational left wing critics? Well, he is African-American.
Contrary to what Markos, Hamsher, Olbermann, et al’ may believe, being a Liberal DOES NOT give you an automatic “Non-Racist” card.
Some liberals simply cannot admit that the right wing DOES NOT have a monopoly on racism.
Jrod the Cookie Thief
@Darnell From LA: Therefore, it’s safe to assume that anyone with anything bad to say about Obama is racist?
But thanks for telling us that there are racists on the left. We never would have guessed without your help. My illusions that the American left is solely made up of shining paragons of virtue: shattered! O woe.
FlipYrWhig
Yeah, I’m not so convinced by the “racism” explanation either. Bill Clinton was barked at by the left in a very similar fashion — and often for good reason! There are people who genuinely believe that the left’s role is to articulate “permanent critique.” I lost interest in that after a few too many years in humanities grad school. But it’s a conscious, coherent political view. There are certainly lefty racists, but the left and would-be left criticism of Obama is too similar to what was said and done to Clinton (which most of us saw first-hand) and — I gather — to Carter and LBJ for racism to explain a lot of it, IMHO.
Nick
@cathyx:
I got this.
Because there’s no such thing, and the naive pursuit of that which doesn’t exist is only going to make an already bad situation worse.
different church-lady
@FlipYrWhig:
Bill Clinton was black, don’t forget.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
@Darnell From LA:
.
.
Especially the black liberal commenters on Dailykos, Firedoglake, or Balloon-Juice.
.
.
Ecks
Wow, what a trainwreck of a thread.
Lots of people started out with interesting interpretations and psychological reads on the dad’s statement, trying to sift through layers of potentially unreliable narrators by trying to reconstruct the mindsets of the actors (the dads, the army’s – the latter interestingly informed by people who have been in the army), and the dynamics between father and son… All of which is pure speculation of course, but much of which was pretty interesting speculation nonetheless.
And then at some point people started extrapolating all of this into being definitively Obama’s fault or not, or definitive attacks on the father, or on each other, and in a matter of minutes it devolves into poo flinging and “I know you are, but what am I.”
Kind of mind boggling really.
different church-lady
@Ecks:
Is this your first time on Balloon Juice?
gn
@Ecks: Lots of people are telling themselves to not believe their lying eyes; this father, who believes that his son is innocent btw, *must* be lying or unaware of his son’s [nonexistent] torture. Lots of denial of reality in terms of the racism which underlies the stridency and reflexive disgust towards this WH, to the point of believing obvious, obvious falsehoods about the supposed torture of Brad Manning. SMH.
This is a birther thread. Peace, and peace out everyone.
Wile E. Quixote
@Hawes:
Yes I do. I also remember how he vetoed DoMA even though Congress had the votes to override the veto and condemned it as an ugly and intolerant law.
Yes. I also remember how he told G. Gordon Liddy that he was a criminal piece of shit who had been convicted in a trial that was more fair than any that Liddy had participated in as a prosecutor and refused to commute his sentence telling him “Gordon, if you can’t do the time then don’t do the crime.”
I almost squirted PBR and V8 out of my nose when I read that. FTFMFW.
And remember how he told everyone who wanted to intern the Japanese Americans on the west coast that these were loyal American citizens and that anyone who advocated internment was no better than a Nazi.
I dunno man, there’s that whole Scopes Monkey Trial thing.
Wile E. Quixote
@Hawes:
Yes I do. I also remember how he vetoed DoMA even though Congress had the votes to override the veto and condemned it as an ugly and intolerant law.
Yes. I also remember how he told G. Gordon Liddy that he was a criminal piece of shit who had been convicted in a trial that was more fair than any that Liddy had participated in as a prosecutor and refused to commute his sentence telling him “Bitch. If you can’t do the time then don’t do the crime.”
I almost squirted PBR and V8 out of my nose when I read that. FTMFW!
And remember how he told everyone who wanted to intern the Japanese Americans on the west coast that these were loyal American citizens and that anyone who advocated internment was no better than a Nazi?
I dunno man, there’s that whole Scopes Monkey Trial thing.
Wile E. Quixote
@Hawes:
Again, what pisses me off about the Brian Manning types is their stupidity. Brian Manning was in the Navy and it was a good thing for him. Therefore he assumed that joining the Army would be a good thing for his son and pushed him to do so. Now, you can assume that Brian Manning had the best intentions for doing so, fine, but a fuckup with good intentions is still a fuckup and Brian Manning is a fuckup. He fucked up as a parent and fucked up when he assumed that the military could do what he couldn’t do.
Going back to people joining the military to get their lives straightened out everyone I know who did this wanted to get their lives straightened out and figured that the military was the best way for them to do so and was lucky that it worked for them. I joined the Army when I was 17 years old. I did so because I wanted to, Hell I even re-enlisted. I can’t imagine how pissed off I would have been if I had been forced into it.
I have a nephew who’s a troubled kid. He’s in a special school and seems to be doing well and getting the help he needs and I hope it works out for him because the idea of this kid, who I love so much, going down in flames is just too painful to contemplate. If someone told me that I could help him get his life straightened out and all it would cost me is losing another limb and going through what I did when I lost my left foot I wouldn’t hesitate to sign that contract. But if someone came to me and said “We should have him join the military, that would straighten him out and get him flying right” we’d both be visiting a proctologist. They’d be visiting so they could have a 28 centimeter Seattle Systems Catalyst 9 foot removed from their ass and I’d be visiting because I wanted 28 centimeter Seattle Systems Catalyst 9 foot back. Those things aren’t cheap you know. They cost an arm and a leg.
Ecks
@different church-lady: Bin here for years. Was just observing the pattern for the sake of observing.
@gn: We’re all engaging in mind-reading here, none of us really know what’s going on in his head here. We can but conjecture.
FWIW, though, here’s my reading of him: I don’t think he’s lying per se, I just think he has a pretty limited handle on the truth. He seems like one of those good authoritarian guys who believes that the world is supposed to be a sensible and well behaved place, and gets upset with people who mess with the generally conservative view of how it should be. I suspect that his relationship with his son has had a complete lack of trust and honesty for years now. I suspect that his son probably sat across a table and looked him in the eye and said “yeah, everything is fine”, because he long ago stopped confiding anything very meaningful in his father. I see a dad who can’t understand why the son would possibly have made these leaks, other than the leaker just being out of his mind insane (I’m not accusing the dad of having much imagination here at all, or understanding of emotional nuance in stressed out people), and so just imagines that his son MUST be innocent and refuses to contemplate anything else, because thinking that his son was guilty would be too confusing and scary for him.
And so tells the interviewer that his son says he is being treated ok, and that he thinks his son must be innocent. And as far as he knows, this is telling the truth.
I don’t think this makes him racist per se. It does make him at least somewhat homophobic, but that’s not at all uncommon in his generation. Even my elderly-ish inlaws struggle with it considerably, and they are otherwise exceptionally nice people, who have figured out, at least, that they need to be tolerant of their gay nephews. Did he dispatch his kid to the military because he thought it would fix his gayness? Who knows. It was quite possibly part of his mental equation, but probably not the whole story.
Anyway, that’s my mind reading. I think it’s a plausible an account as any, but there’s so little evidence either way that it’s no more than an educated guess.
This reading is just a psychological analysis, it has no implications at all for electoral politics or Obama specifically one way or the other. I have no idea how this guy is actually being treated in prison, though I’m sure that it’s unpleasant for him at minimum. It’s plausible that his treatment is crossing the line into torture, but also plausible that it isn’t. I have no idea, and neither does anyone else here.
liberal
@Uncle Clarence Thomas:
More specifically, the self-hating black liberals who post there.
Paul in KY
@General Stuck: You have to go with the Democratic President you have, not the fantasy Democratic President you wish you had…
Sad_Dem
I agree with BGinCHI about the unhealthy emphasis in U.S. journalism on “feelings.” And yet…I also agree with cathyx and think the subtext here is that Bradley Manning is gay.
gn
@Ecks: No need for conjecture or trying to get a read on the father’s personality; he said he doesn’t think his son did this because he doesn’t think his son ever had access to the full scale and volume of the information which was leaked. And he’s basing this assumption upon his own years in military service. He was pissed reading about his son’s possible humiliation as described by his son’s lawyer; pissed enough to approach the media and complain about it. But he wasn’t willing to lie about his son being tortured. For which he’s of course slammed by the Professional Left as a homophobe and all-around jerk…
Corner Stone
@gn:
The equally possible inference is that he’s ashamed “his son” could’ve done the things he’s accused of. And just like he’s in denial regarding his son being gay, he’s in denial that “his son” could’ve betrayed “his military” that he twisted his arm to get him to join.
You’re clearly reading tea leaves here just as much as anyone else.
gn
@Corner Stone: No, lol, I’m listening to a person provide an opinion about his son’s innocence based upon his skepticism that his son had access to the full volume of information which was leaked. Perhaps he *is* in denial; that’s his kid and it’s not unusual for the mothers and fathers of murderers, etc. to never give up on their kids and to refuse to believe that their kids engaged in these acts. Which makes the claim that this dad is somehow lying about his son’s condition to be ridiculous. He complained about his son’s treatment as outlined by the defense attorney (hardly an unbiased source), yet he didn’t lie or attach himself to the hyperbolic accusations about torture.
That’s it for me in terms of this story; no there, there. All of the hyperbolic claims of brutality and torture have just been contradicted by the parent of the alleged torture victim. shoqvalue and the others who raised red flags and warned that the torture accusations weren’t substantiated–those folks have been vindicated. Thanks to balloon juice for the interesting coversations but now I truly am back to blackwaterdog’s place where this story was dissected and shown as lacking proof/factual basis within like two seconds. Peace out everyone.
Corner Stone
@gn:
Sounds good. I’ll drop by and check out some of your photo captions one day.
joe from Lowell
This whole episode is reminding me of the WMD scam in the runup to the Iraq War, with the role of the Bushies being played by the Professional Left.
Yes, Saddam has used gas in the past. Yes, he had formerly had a nuke program, and we were surprised by how advanced it was after the Gulf War. Yes, there was circumstantial evidence, that, when looked at with a certain mindset, could be interpreted as evidence that the Iraqi government was still in the WMD business.
And yet, when evidence to the contrary came out, the Bushies couldn’t come up with any answers. They just attacked the messenger. And then, they got caught in a lie (the aluminum tubes). And then, they got caught in another lie (the yellowcake). And then, they got caught in another lie (the Prague meeting with Atta). And every single time, they just attacked the messenger, made the factual questions about their case into an ideological purity test: are you patriotically supporting this war, or are you with the terrorists. It eventually turned into a shibboleth, where adhering to the narrative and refusing to accept any questioning became a part of their identity.
I read the vituperation from Greenwald, repeated here slightly garbled, like a game of telephone, by the usual suspects, and I see the same thing happening that I saw in 2002.
But of course, that can’t be true, because the Bushies were “bad guys,” while the anti-whatevers who’ve adopted this case are the “good guys.”
joe from Lowell
See, look at Corner Stone: presented with a reference to someone who has done an effective job raising questions about the party line on Manning, what does he do? Does he read the piece? Does he rebut anything therein?
No, he attacks the messenger. He doesn’t want to even hear that there might be holes in the story, nevermind read or consider them. He comes up with some dismissive sneer to justify not bothering to find out what someone who isn’t drinking his Kool Aid has to say.
It’s like I’ve gone back in time 8-1/2 years.
Canadian Observer
The WMD episode should show you pretty clearly joe that the American government 1)lies to your face and 2) is essentially Fascist/Imperial state.
So, do you trust your government? I think you’re pretty stupid if you do, but run along now and be a good little German.
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell: I matter waaayyy too much to you man. Tell me, when I haunt your nightmares, what kind of facial hair do I have?
Corner Stone
@Canadian Observer:
Ouch.
Canadian Observer
And before I get accused of “GODWIN!”, don’t worry, I meant Imperial Germany. Or maybe ex-Imperial German ,since the USA is a degenerate democracy in it’s Weimar phase.
Joe would be like that Social Democratic deputy in the Reichstag that completely abandones his principles and votes for the Kaiser’s war credits.
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell:
What a tool. The “party” line is the one where the President asks the DoD if they are doing anything wrong and they say, “No sir. Everything is kosher down here.”
And that’s satisfactory for you too, I guess.
joe from Lowell
@General Stuck:
Dude, WTF? Is it so crazy to make the jump from “Dad had a problem with his son being gay” and “Dad urged his son to join the Army to straighten him out” to “Dad urged his son to join the Army in hopes of making a ‘real man’ out of him?”
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell: Your good little German pal gn indicated the “story” was dissected in “two seconds” and decided to be completely false.
That should indicate to any thinking person* that s/he didn’t give a shit to find out if there were any merits to the “story”.
*Not including you in that demographic.
joe from Lowell
@Corner Stone:
Nah, you just happened to have the comment immediately before mine, which demonstrated my point very effectively. Nothing personal.
@Canadian Observer:
Eyeroll. When you get a little older, you’ll discover that the best way to figure out if you’re being lied to isn’t to decide whether to put a white hat or a black hat on the person talking to you, but to listen to what they’re saying, and see if there are holes in the story. Or, more likely, you won’t.
BTW, the fact that neither of you can raise even the slightest rebuttal to any point I made, and have been driven to spittle-flecked, personal vitriol instead, isn’t glaringly obvious. At all.
Canadian Observer
I’m going to guess I’m a good deal older than you.
The US government lies, period, especially the Pentagon. They’re lying murderers who torture and kill for the resources of foreign countries.
Canadian Observer
EX., I think the fact that you saviour Obama refused to prosecute the Bush war criminals shows a lot. It shows that he approves of torture, and is just the same ball of wax as the neocons.
Having Clinton put pressure on Spain to end their prosecutions of Bush/Cheney and his escalation of the illegal occupation of Afghanistan speaks even more to what he really is–the US Military-Industrial Complex in blackface.
joe from Lowell
@Corner Stone:
Yes, Corner Stone, it’s only those other people – the ones you don’t like or agree with – who ever fall victim to groupthink or confirmation bias. There’s no way that could even happen to you and the people who agree with you, because as we all know, politics and cognition work completely different for the “good guys” and the “bad guys.”
Since the point so obviously zoomed over your head, I’ll repeat it: it wasn’t anything the government has said that led me to question your party line. Like the WMD scam, it’s the holes that keep cropping up in your story, and your – plural – inability to answer them.
When you catch the car salesman in his second or third lie, you need to walk away from the deal. It’s not anything Obama, or the C.O. of the brig, or the Pentagon has said that makes me increasingly skeptical of the story told by Manning’s “supporters.” It’s the things that Greenwald, Hamsher, and other Manning fans themselves have said, that have been proven to be false.
But you don’t think like that. You can’t think in any other terms than what team you’re on, and you’re utterly credulous about everything that comes out of it, and dismiss everything anyone else has to say.
Like I said, I’ve seen this mentality before, and I know what it looks like.
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell: The “point” you failed to make was ass backwards.
gn, Stuck, Andy K et al will go to any length to slander any source that questions the official response.
Others choose to be sceptical when it comes to the DoD telling us all that the DoD isn’t doing anything wrong.
“Hey Embezzler! You embezzling from me?”
“No sir. No embezzling going on down here.”
“Good enough Embezzler. Carry on.”
General Stuck
@joe from Lowell:
It was the opening salvo to attack the messenger like you already said. And yes, it is a big leap from what the father stated were his reasons of wanting his son to join up for structure. If you want to add “toughen up” , That is fine. But to then tack on a motive to de gay his son is over the line imo, and was stated to impeach his fathers testimony on everything else. Which was continued on within this thread.
You are clowning just like Corner stone in this thread, it is not established that Manning was kicked out of the House for being gay, or as for some other reason, like I was for being a wild commie in my fathers eye. The father made a clear statement about his motives, and you are implying, like a lot of other assholes on this thread, that he may be lying, and hence nothing else he says is true. You want to pile on me with the other fools on this thread, you better bring your A game.
joe from Lowell
@Corner Stone:
What is this, “Prove Joe’s Point Day?”
In response to my accusation that you refuse to acknowledge or consider any information or argument that doesn’t support what you already believe, you just explained that you don’t have to bother considering some information that doesn’t support what you believe, on the grounds that the source thinks the information disproves your set of beliefs.
Uhhh…thanks. Again.
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell:
“Anything they accuse you of they are sure to be doing.”
Hey! That does hold true!
joe from Lowell
@Canadian Observer:
Oh, ok, champ. Just as long as your opinion about Manning’s detention situation is based on a disinterested consideration of the evidence on it merits, and not on making assumptions based on your own prejudices about who wears what color hats.
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell: It’s pretty obvious. If this very serious situation didn’t merit more than a self admitted “two seconds” consideration before utter dismissal then I’m pretty sure it’s not worth investigating further.
Canadian Observer
No, it’s based on a pretty clear record of lies and murder stretching back centuries, not something about “colour hats”.
Canadian Observer
For example, joe, when the Taliban offered to try bin Laden in the court of a third party Islamic country for 9/11, I bet you didn’t believe them, did you?
Why? Was it the colour of their hat?
joe from Lowell
@Canadian Observer:
Nice.
It’s funny, these spoiled upper-crust uber-leftists: you push them the slightest bit, and all the Tory bigotries they thought they’d never inherit from Daddy coming flooding out.
Canadian Observer
Don’t project your own racial problems onto people from other more civilised nations.
joe from Lowell
@Corner Stone:
Well, third time’s a charm, so I’ll try it again: Absolutely none – zero, nicht, nada, zilch – of my skepticism about your party line comes from what the DoD says.
Nod twice if you understand what I just wrote.
Telling me how awesomely skeptical you are of what the DoD says means nothing to me, because the statements put out by the DoD mean nothing to me.
You’re doing that thing again, where you will yourself not to understand something if it’s inconvenient for what you want to believe.
Maude
@Canadian Observer:
Are you talking about Merry Old England?
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell: Sigh. You don’t exactly know where to go from here, do you?
joe from Lowell
@Corner Stone: Did you really just write “I’m rubber, you’re glue?”
Really?
That’s just pathetic.
@Corner Stone:
Oh, look, you have yet another explanation for why there’s not need to bother looking at the other side’s argument. Congratulations.
joe from Lowell
@General Stuck: Dude, you’ve fucking lost it.
When you’re in a cooler state of mind, go back and reread what you just wrote to me.
I don’t think you’re going to be proud.
joe from Lowell
You know what’s really disappointing, General Stuck?
I’ve disagree with you, and with other anti-Manning commenters, any number of times, just like I’ve disagree with the pro-Manning commenters.
Up until what you just wrote, there was always a very clear difference in how the two sides treated disagreement. Mike Kay or soonergrunt or you would consider the point on its merits, and either agree or disagree, with an evidence-based reason why. It was always Corner Stone and his ilk who took the “with us or with the terrorists” line. It was a pretty sharp distinction.
Until your latest comment.
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell: HAHAHAHAHA!
You thought Mike motherfucking Kay was an honest broker in a discussion?
Jeebus cracker, you’re dumber than I thought, if that’s possible.
joe from Lowell
@Canadian Observer:
No no, I’m not prejudiced, because I’m right!
Gee, I never heard that before. Quick, quote me some statistics about black crime rates. (Based on your inability to stop yourself from making that “blackface” quip, I’m sure you’ve got them handy, even though you hate yourself for it).
Rebelling Tory babies are so predictable.
General Stuck
@joe from Lowell:
I think you have lost it Go back and re read what you wrote to me. You write an essay on attacking the messenger, then attack me for pointing that out to cathyx. I was letting this thread die a much needed death, so you will have to excuse me for reacting to you taking one last shot of bullshit after all the others.
joe from Lowell
@Corner Stone:
I plan to continue to make my point over and over for as long as you wish to demonstrate it for the nice people reading the thread.
Canadian Observer
Answer my question about the Taliban.
joe from Lowell
@Canadian Observer:
Actually, it was a set of specific facts – bin Laden’s marriage to Mullah Omar’s daughter, all the millions of dollars that bin Laden had given to the Taliban, Pashtun customs regarding the protection of guests, their old history as comrades in arms, which was ongoing in their shared war against Ahmed Shah Masood – that led me to not believe them.
Actual facts, relevant to the specific question at hand, regarding the particular individuals involved. But you wouldn’t know anything about that.
My decision making just had to be about black hats and white hats, because after all, yours was.
General Stuck
@joe from Lowell:
Na dude, you took a cheap shot for whatever reason. And it was a shot not evidence based, just like all the other nonsense on this thread.
I don’t know what this means. exactly. And don’t much care. I don’t do this to be in a clique of any kind. And what is said is usually forgotten. Toughen up some dude.
Canadian Observer
And it’s also a specific question of facts in my distrust of your government–the torture, the aggressive wars from Korea to Iraq, the lies, the CIA “black” sites in Eastern Europe, depleted uranium, various Yankee-backed coups in Latin America, the blowing up of the Chinese Embassy in Serbia, the countless millions of people worldwide (mostly people of colour) murdered by US arms, etc, etc, etc,.
You can believe that Manning’s father wasn’t pressured by the CIA to say what he did, but you’d be very very stupid to do so.
joe from Lowell
@Corner Stone:
I still can’t for the life of me understand why you think I, or anyone else, would be interested in your opinion of me.
Just a tip, though: leading off with that forced-laughter thing just makes you look like you’re trying too hard. I know, I know, it’s supposed to come off as a superior lack of concern, but it doesn’t. It comes across as someone feeling insecure about how the argument is going, who is affecting a pose of superior lack of concern to hide his flop sweat.
joe from Lowell
@General Stuck:
Her comment is completely innocuous, and makes a lot of sense. The only reason you have decided it isn’t is because of 1) who is saying it and 2) how inconvenient you think it is for the position you’ve adopted. By itself, it’s a perfectly reasonable comment, and it should be considered on its own merits.
joe from Lowell
@Canadian Observer:
A. Go fuck yourself. I’ll write whatever I want, about whatever I want, and your bitter, Tory-guilt ass doesn’t get to give me orders.
B. I already did, dimwit.
C. In case you haven’t noticed, Mr. ME ME ME ME!, I’m in the middle of three different conversations. You get to wait your turn, child.
Ecks
Sigh.
More people who think it’s “obvious” what’s going on. The dad must be lying! How dare you say the dad is lying! The US gov lies! Everything from them is a lie-ly lie lie!
This is not about picking sides. It’s not about one group being angelic and the other demonic. It’s not even really about clearly defined groups, for the most part.
I’m sure the dad is telling the truth AS HE UNDERSTANDS IT. The kid in jail seems like a complicated guy. The dad seems like a straightforward guy who hates all this complicated stuff and doesn’t really understand it. The US military is on the one hand a solidly professional organization, and on the other hand, just as capable of internally circling the wagons to punish the snot out of people who are betraying the team (largely as defined by the upper types), and America as a geopolitical state actor often lies. That’s part and parcel of the geopolitical game. Are they lying about this guy’s treatment? Maybe, maybe not, we can’t say. Was the father lying when he said his son was treated well? Probably that IS what his son told him, but who knows if he was telling the truth. Are Greenwald et. al. lying? I doubt intentionally, but may be too quick to jump on info consistent with their schema that the American security apparatus are bastards – just because they’re sometimes bastards doesn’t mean they always are.
If you think you can tell what is going on much more definitively than that then you should look yourself hard in the mirror and ask if you aren’t engaging in the near universal human tendency to exaggerate your estimation of how well you understand the world.
Oh, and Canadian Observer… I’m Canadian too, and you are starting to irritate me with all the condescension. Yeah, the American gov has a longer history of being evil to people than most Americans realize. But it’s hardly unique in this. I think Canada does a little better, on average, but mostly because we’re not nearly so powerful, and so not tempted into evil wankery quite the same way. We certainly aren’t perfect though.
joe from Lowell
@General Stuck:
What cheap shot? I disagreed with you. Is that out of bounds now?
Uh, guy? You’re the one whimpering about a “chap shot” because I dared to dispute something you wrote.
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell: Get back to me when you have any kind of valid point.
Because you’ve been failing miserably to tie me to some nefarious “party line” that I am supposed to be toeing.
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell:
No, again, you’re failing miserably.
It’s a written expression of exactly how hard I was laughing when I realized you are so stupid you believe Mike Kay is an even keeled individual.
joe from Lowell
@Canadian Observer:
Again, it seems to be “Prove Joe’s Point Day.”
Yes, good job not allowing old prejudices that have nothing to do with the individuals or case at hand distract you from looking at facts relevant to the current question.
Ah, yes, the Korean War and the Guatemala coup. How could I have possibly overlooked their relevance to whether holes keep cropping up in the charges made by Manning’s supporters? I guess it’s just something we good Germans do.
Is there anything cuter than someone on the internet linking an affectation of worldliness with a CIA conspiracy theory?
It must be nice to have to think about evidence that conflicts with your beliefs. Just say the CIA planted it!
General Stuck
@joe from Lowell:
Who is saying it has a history of making idiotic comments, that doesn’t relate whatsoever to this one, and me pointing it out. It was evidence free, and an attempted smear beyond what the father went on tv to answer. But it tells me that you are what others say you are, a poseur contrarian clown. To write an essay about attacking the messenger, and then turn around and attack someone who was here when the thread began for speaking out about your narrative’s concerns.
Which apparently was just a bullshit wank.
And are we motive reading here Joe?, ala your nemesis GG. You don’t know what my position is. But I will tell you now. Unlike you, I am not anti Manning. I think he is being mistreated to a degree, but do not accept the torture rap, and especially laid on Obama. And you are defending an attack on your messenger theme that is completely devoid of fact, and is in direct contravention to Mr. Manning’s on teevee heartfelt explanation of why he did what he did. And he did not mention wanting his son to join the army to de gay himself. You are with the corner stones of the world if you think otherwise.
joe from Lowell
@Corner Stone:
I would just like to point out that not only can Corner Stone not dispute my point, but even after three quite straightforward attempts, he doesn’t even know what it is.
General Stuck
@joe from Lowell:
Okay, it wasn’t a cheap shot. Just you being a preening clown. There all fixed up
General Stuck
Goddamn, I hate it when Corner Stone is right about something, or someone.
joe from Lowell
@General Stuck:
I’ll let that go, because you’re clearly a little wound up from this argument.
I guess my point wasn’t any clearer to you than to Corner Stone. That your slam on cathyx was written to advance a point I agree with isn’t enough to make me endorse that slam. I’m not going to agree with your specific point just because it tends to advance my general argument; I’m going to consider that point on its own merits. That was what I’ve been writing about this entire thread, and I guess you didn’t understand that.
Actually, I do. Your position, as you go on to explain it, is exactly what I’ve long understood it to be, and very similar to my own (which you seem to be confused about, which is odd, because I’ve done almost all of my arguing with the pro-Manning people).
So sad. I question something you wrote, and now I’m “with the terrorists.” Like I said, before you on this thread, I was only getting that from the firebaggers.
Not really. “I wanted my son to straighten his life out” is not in direct contravention to “I wanted my son to turn straight.” Yes, it’s a “close reading,” and it may not turn out to be true…but it’s not implausible that an older, old-fashioned fella with a gay son – the kind who would twist his son’s arm to get him to join the Army – would look at it that way.
General Stuck
@General Stuck:
Oh what the fuck, this blogging on left wing blogs has gotten too surreal levels of bullshit, and I most likely have lost it some, and taking it too serious. You live in liberaltown, and one day you wake up and it’s freeperville of the left.
General Stuck
@joe from Lowell:
sorry joe. I am wound up from this thread. You are still wrong, imo, but i over reacted.
to quote the Witchita Lineman – I thinks I need a small vacation, and it don’t look like rain.
joe from Lowell
Going back a bit:
@Canadian Observer:
The proper, logical, intelligent, intellectually-honest response when you conclude that someone is untrustworthy is skepticism – that is, a determination to get more facts and evidence about the specific question before making up one’s mind.
Simply deciding that you’re going to base your beliefs on the opposite of what your opponent says isn’t skepticism. It isn’t reality-based. It’s just an alternate form of gullibility. It’s just another exercise in basing your position on question of fact on which side you’ve joined.
General Stuck
I would take this back if I could, but will just say it was wrong and incorrect.
Corner Stone
The most important thing to wannabe know-it-all pricks is their image as wannabe know-it-all pricks.
joe from Lowell
@General Stuck: Been there, done that.
You’re like me, in that you have no problem getting into an argument with several people at the same time. (When people like us do that, it’s known as “a fair fight.”)
The thing is, you get so used to kicking the ninjas one by one as they come at you, that it’s easy to make a mistake and lay out some dood who’s just passing by.
I’ve done that.
joe from Lowell
@Corner Stone:
I love how much I matter to you.
I haven’t written the line you’re riffing off for months…but it’s burned into your skull, isn’t it?
It probably says something bad about me, but I really, really do enjoy that.
HyperIon
@Southern Beale:
This has been known for years. When I first heard about Curveball (in 2005?), the stuff about the Germans not believing him was striking to me….as it appears to be to you. But it’s old news…which just goes to show you how quick this shit gets forgotten/buried.
HyperIon
@Wile E. Quixote said to General Stuck:
unpossible.
it’s Stuck!
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell: Nah, you just happened to have some of the most unctuous know-it-all prick comments on this thread, which demonstrated my point very effectively. Nothing personal.
Corner Stone
@joe from Lowell: See my #193.
Jrod the Cookie Thief
@General Stuck:
I know, right? Jeez, you spend years coming to this site every day to scream mindless, poorly spelled insults towards left-wingers, and then you wake up one day and the site has mysteriously become freeperville! Gosh, nobody could have predicted…
General Stuck
@Jrod the Cookie Thief:
Nope, you are the perfect example of what I am talking about. A blog stalking head case, that just can’t help itself.
FuzzyWuzzy
@Southern Beale: How long did it take us to find out the whitewashed Nazis had been flipped by the Soviets? Gehlen?
Angry Black Lady
@liberal: If this is in reference to me, go jump right up your own ass.
Take
.
.
.
You know who
.
.
.
with you.
Cheers,
Angry Clown Lady