We’ve had a good discussion in the comments on why union members vote for Republicans, because a lot of union members do, in fact, vote for Republicans.
We had complicated theories on why they might do that.
We may have given Republicans too much credit and union members not enough credit.
Turns out, in Ohio, some union members voted for Republicans because Republicans assured those union members that they supported collective bargaining:
An Ohio Senate panel approved the 99-page amendment to Senate Bill 5 on Wednesday. The committee began the hearing without one of its most vocal critics: state Sen. Bill Seitz, R-Cincinnati. Seitz was replaced on the 12-member committee by Hite, R-Findlay.
Hite was one of eight Republican senators called out in a newspaper ad this week paid for by Ohio cops and firefighters as a lawmaker who told the Ohio Fraternal Order of Police that he supports collective bargaining.
Here’s what the Republican Senator who just voted “yes” on an amendment to end collective bargaining wrote to cops and firefighters when he was running:
“Collective bargaining has come under attack by some of my colleagues. However, I do believe when it comes to those who protect and defend us without the ability to go on strike, collective bargaining becomes a vital and important aspect of the negotiating process,” Hite wrote in a FOP questionnaire. “Therefore, in your particular case, I defend the collective bargaining process.”
Not so complicated after all. They were asked, specifically, about collective bargaining on candidate questionnaires and they simply lied.
Loneoak
There may be a severe uptick in speeding ticket infractions right outside of his driveway.
JenJen
The ever-excellent Ohio political news blog Plunderbund has Ohio Senate Majority Leader Jimmy Stewart’s written pledge of support to the Teamsters, here.
JenJen
FYWP doesn’t let me edit any of my posts anymore, so maybe I need to slow down before hitting the Submit button… correction to my post #2: Ohio Senate Majority FLOOR Leader Jimmy Stewart.
jibeaux
Thanks for posting this, because it came up at dinner the other night with some folks I don’t usually eat with, when a smart young man asked whether anyone knew how much this had come up in the campaign. He seemed to feel that while there had just been an election in November, that the voters were probably pretty well taken aback by this move and wouldn’t support it. And I know there is polling that supports that, folks saying they’d switch their votes now.
I just think ordinary working people have to learn, the easy way or the hard way, not to vote for Republicans. They will sell you down the river in a heartbeat, because you are not their constituency. Democrats are half as likely to as well, but at least you’ve got a fighting chance.
I have to hope that the betrayal of trust will be a hard thing to earn back, but I’m afraid that people’s memories are short.
kay
@JenJen:
They all look like deer in the headlights. Like they’re being held hostage. I’m not sensing a lot of pride here, or confidence in this sudden change of heart.
I’d love to know who gave them the order to do a 180 from positions they (supposedly) held in November.
kay
@jibeaux:
I think we have to monitor GOP responses to constituent questions.
Who knows how long they’ve been lying about this. Years?
Cris
And I don’t want to hear anybody come in here with their clever cynicism going “News flash! Politicians lie!” Because this is not okay. Okay?
jibeaux
@kay:
Agreed. And keeping that information out there, informing voters as to what these politicians say vs. what they do, is the easy way in my scenario.
Gravie
Republicans lie about everything. It is their MO.
JenJen
@kay: Kay, pardon my language, but I am sick to my fucking stomach over this.
Excellent tweet/suggestion from Anthony Fossaceca (candidate for Ohio 17th)
stuckinred
@JenJen: Right click on the edit icon and it will open the edit function in a new window, click save and it say “Comment Successfully Saved” close window and you’ll be choppin in high cotton. (or soy)
TooManyJens
@kay:
Absolutely. Republicans still haven’t learned that the Internet means they can’t just shove their words and deeds down the memory hole anymore. Let’s continue to provide painful lessons.
kay
@Gravie:
Republicans voted to make Indiana a “right to work” state in 1958. They got killed in the next election. Both chambers switched Parties, and it was repealed.
So they brought it up again this year. That’s a long time to think you’re safe, if you’re a union member. Lulled into a false sense of security.
Southern Beale
No, they didn’t lie. He said:
IOW, for cops and firefighters it’s OK. For teachers, sanitation workers, prison guards, and everyone else, it’s a BUDGET BUSTER ZOMG WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE TYRANNY IMMORAL blabbedy blah.
This is the same position Walker is taking in Wisconsin. Everything is always fine for their base, the cops and firefighters whom Republican politicians believe to be Republican voters because these folks endorse them every election.
In other words:
IOKIYAR.
WereBear
Why Republicans always lie: because if they told the truth, no one would vote for them!
Duh implied.
kay
@TooManyJens:
Well, the internet, sure, but I was talking about personally monitor:)
JenJen
@stuckinred: I heart you.
kay
@Southern Beale:
The Ohio law is different than the Wisconsin budget measure. They didn’t exempt cops in Ohio.
So he did lie. More than just him, as JenJen points out.
Omnes Omnibus
@Southern Beale: But he did vote to end collective bargaining for cops and firefighters. After saying he supported it. He lied. If your position “evolves”, I think there is an obligation to come out and say it. I am weird that way.
Bill Section 147
I keep waiting for reality to set in. But it doesn’t.
I am reminded of a number of stories and movies where a group of people sit meekly in a warehouse as guards pull out groups of twenty to get on trucks to got to work, soup, or the showers. Those left behind discuss whether or not they really are going to the destination or to their death. Shortly gunfire outside the building causes a pause in the conversation.
Eventually one of the waiting will suggest that they should fight but does not make any move hoping others will take his suggestion. Another will insist that there would be no reason for those men to be shot. It doesn’t make any sense. Finally one of them will say, “When the first truck showed up in the village to take the first twenty people to the warehouse, that didn’t make any sense either.”
Southern Beale
Speaking of mysteries, someone needs to explain to me how palm trees made it to Madison Wisconsin.
I guess since this is Fox News, anything is possible.
Corner Stone
Were the D candidates not clear on their position respective to CB?
IOW, what did these voters agree with the R’s on in addition to CB?
Because only an idiot would’ve believed the R’s on this specific issue.
stuckinred
@JenJen: I had to learn the hard way and then got hammered for being a mouseless mac head!
schnooten
So, going to the source, I’m having a hard time finding that Hite quote from the FOP questionnaire in the article. A google search finds it as the top link, but clicking on that link just provides a link to the same article without the quote. Anyone have a cache or a new link for that Hite bit?
stuckinred
@Southern Beale: That was in California this weekend.
Now, there’s trouble bustin in from outta state
And the d.a. can’t get no relief
Gonna be a rumble out on the promenade
And the gamblin commissions hangin on by the skin of his teeth
Jon O.
@Omnes Omnibus: The bill up now exempts cops and firefighters, since their unions supported Walker more than the others in this past election.
This isn’t a lie, not exactly, but it is pretty insidious cast in the light of what’s happening now. That earlier quote now seems to read “I still support your rights, specifically because you’re of electoral use to me.”
As for why union members vote Republican more often now than they used to, it seems like it could be a matter of how much labor issues have been off the table when it comes to the national discourse (eg. because union members haven’t perceived themselves as endangered by Republicans, they’re free to vote on social issues).
Chrisd
You know, I’ve come to this conclusion, too. The results of voting Republican are manifest, and there is faster and easier access to information than at any point in history. People are being tortured and killed all over the planet to secure basic liberties, and we’re excusing our endemic stupidity because of what, a loud media noise machine?
Horse, water, drink.
kay
@Corner Stone:
I don’t know, but cops (law enforcement, generally, so probation, corrections, etc.) are a little different. They do vote for Republicans. One outraged police agency head in Ohio said “70% of my members” and that aligns with my experience talking to them here.
They must have felt safe doing so. Not anymore, I would imagine. This proposal, too, is almost personally insulting. It mandates a “bargaining” process that ends with a unilateral decision by their employer. I don’t know why anyone would waste time with it.
It’s worse than no offer.
Gustopher
This is why I would sooner vote for a child molester than a Republican.
Even a “moderate” Republican is just going to give power to the radicals, and do far more damage than even the worst possible Democrat.
Cat Lady
@WereBear:
fixt for accuracy.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jon O.: This post is about the Ohio bill not the Wisconsin bill and the actions of Ohio legislators not those of Wisconsin legislators.
ppcli
Though those of us in Michigan are eager to point out that the Ohioans may have different standards in this regard. As the OSU quarterback memorably put it:
“Not everybody’s the perfect person in the world. I mean everyone kills people, murders people, steals from you, steals from me, whatever.”
Jon O.
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, now I feel like a goon. Thanks for the heads up.
geg6
@Southern Beale:
I believe that the Ohio bill does not exempt first responders. Which makes them LIARS.
I suspect that the union vote for Dems will be somewhere in the 70% range, at least, in 2012.
ppcli
@Jon O.: Am I understanding right that the police were OK with the elimination of collective bargaining for all the other unions but not for theirs? Maybe they should have reminded themselves of the fable of the frog and the scorpion.
Of course the Republicans would sting them – it’s their nature.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jon O.: Not a problem.
Darius
Anyone have another link for the quotes in Kay’s post? The Dayton Daily news article has been updated with completely different text.
Shinobi
I think that if republicans do not reverse their positions on these ridiculous bills, it is time for American Workers to remind Republicans of how we got Collective Bargaining agreements in the first place.
It is not just stubborn republicans messing around with budgets that can bring a state to a standstill. How many days of statewide strike do you think it would take before business owners are on the phone with their state reps demanding a compromise?
I hope that workers in Wisconsin and Ohio decide not to compromise on this issue. The Republicans may be in charge of the government, but they are not really in control.
Kryptik
I put it off so long, but I finally watched the Daily Show’s bit from Monday on the whole thing.
It really is amazing how many people really honestly think that a teacher’s day ends immediately at 2:30 Pm (or whenever the school bell rings out). And that summer is just a super long vacation for them. I suppose no one ever heard of Sunday School. Which is a shame considering it was such an awesome movie, on top of where most of these dumb fuckers probably spent their summer.
stuckinred
@Kryptik:
“It really is amazing how many people really honestly think ..”
that was your first problem.
singfoom
I think we’re getting closer to a schism. It doesn’t have to be violent. Can we just spilit the nation into two? The conservative crazies and their lolbertarian friends can have one half, and we that believe in the rule of law and the importance of people over corporations can have the other half.
Let them run wild with their return to Dickensian times, as we rein in the banks and promote policies based on science and rational decision making instead of stupid emotional responses to the politics of resentment.
LindaH
@Southern Beale: Sweetie in Ohio they are trying to take away collective bargaining from ALL Public employees, fire, police and and any other safety unions as well. He flat out LIED.
Chris
@Gustopher:
I considered voting McCain during the 2008 election, when I still had some shreds of bipartisan delusion, based on the hope that a moderate Republican could, if not move the party back to the center, at least stop its incessant slide towards the right.
I decided against it because of what you said. His selecting Palin was the last nail in the coffin, making me realize that even if McCain himself was a moderate (which he wasn’t anymore, if he ever had been), he’d have to make so many concessions to the far right that it didn’t make a difference what he personally believed.
Oh, and by the way, this “they lied” thing is par for the course. Reagan won in 1980 by talking waxing poetic about patriotism and anti-communism and how we’d lost our way as a country… then tried to privatize Social Security. Gingrich’s Republicans won in 1994 by talking about family values… then tried to strangle Medicare. Bush won in 2004 by playing up the war on terror… then tried to privatize Social Security (again). The teabaggers won in 2010, and lookie here!
Friggin lab rats would’ve picked it up by now: don’t bite the pieces of cheese that give you electric shocks, and don’t vote Republican. Just don’t do it.
JenJen
@kay: EXACTLY.
kay
@Kryptik:
I never thought teaching was easy. I was a horrible student, though. Maybe all these people that think they can be teachers because they went to school were all really, really good students.
I don’t think so, but maybe.
Corner Stone
@Chris:
In 2008? WTF is wrong with you?
Chris
@singfoom:
Great concept, except they’ll never go along with it. Have you ever seen maps of how federal money flows, and just how many red states are drowning in federal subsidies from money collected in New York and California? Nah, they won’t ever go along with that.
Kryptik
@stuckinred:
Unfortunately, not all of these jackasses are cynical politics mongering cretins.
Some of them are honestly true believers. Which is scarier IMO.
BR
I’m having an argument with a friend about the importance of public-sector unions – he claims that private-sector unions are good but public-sector unions are bad. (The main argument being that public-sector unions have power over the people they are bargaining with.)
Anyone have a link/links I could send him as a counterargument?
NobodySpecial
Cops vote Republican because Republicans are ‘tough on crime’, while Democrats are still ‘hippies’ who hate ‘pigs’.
The fucking 60’s never fucking died in the minds of the bosses in the Police Unions who disseminate information to their members.
Cris
both/and
trollhattan
Republican “brilliance” if you will, is in getting their peeps to vote against their own self-interest in pursuit of some shiny thing (or, more commonly, running in fear from some dark thing). How else can you explain even a single blue-collar worker voting Republican?
stuckinred
@NobodySpecial: or for us hippies either
gex
@kay: How do you know when a Republican is lying? Lips are moving, yada yada…
NobodySpecial
@stuckinred: Yeah, well, as a young squirt, I’m frigging tired of the 60’s being used to prop up every single Republican talking point, so maybe we should work on getting that shit off the stage.
Loneoak
@ppcli:
It’s always lovely to see Jim Tressel’s franchise shat upon.
stuckinred
@NobodySpecial: rotsa ruck
Stefan
We may have given Republicans too much credit and union members not enough credit.
Yeah, but c’mon: those union members believed a Republican. Do they really have anyone to blame but themselves?
It’s like Bluto’s famous line from Animal House: “You fucked up. You trusted me.”
gex
@Corner Stone: I don’t think they were confused on the Dem position. No, basically like any Republican leaning asshole, as long as the hatred and pain is directed towards some other group, it’s okay. They thought the Republicans were going to turn the hoses on some other group. It’s been immigrants, gays, and women lately. They had no idea that unions were next up when they voted for these jerks.
Stefan
@Omnes Omnibus: The bill up now exempts cops and firefighters, since their unions supported Walker more than the others in this past election.
That was Wisconsin. This is Ohio.
Omnes Omnibus
@BR: Don’t private sector unions have power over the people they are bargaining with as well? Isn’t that the point of a union?
Cris
Jobs. It’s really simple. I don’t know how it is in the rest of the country, but out west the Republicans pretty well own the “jobs” portion of the “jobs vs the environment” false dichotomy. They have the workers in the lumber mills and the mines and the aluminum plant convinced that the tree-hugging liberals would sell their job out to save a sockeye salmon.
BR
@Omnes Omnibus:
I think his argument was that a private-sector union can’t oust management if they don’t like what management is doing – they can only negotiate head to head. Whereas with a public-sector union, they can oust an elected official. Something like that.
aimai
@BR:
No links but I think its a very common argument on the right. The idea is that public sector unions aren’t bargaining with the hated/feared “Big Goverment” but are individually stomping on the rights of poor, tax paying, grandma. I’d ask your friend when “Big Government” lost its power to scare and became a toothless collection of individual patsys?–I think of public sector unions standing as a bulwark against the State Government forcing workers to accept starvation wages, dangerous work conditions, lower levels of professionalism all of which would be a kind of unwarranted “taking” of the individual tax payer/worker’s labor.
I also say things to people like “I don’t want some cheap bastard of a millionaire, who is never going to need a public ambulance or public school for his kids, forcing the Government to underpay my civil servants for their work–or forcing my children’s teachers to take sixty kids in a classroom, or no lunch breaks, or no standards for teaching. Because that’s what it amounts to: Rich corporations and rich voters voting down union protections for *our* civil servants. If their working conditions are bad imagine how bad the services we are going to get?
aimai
Southern Beale
OH OKAY Republicans lie. Well there you go.
Karen
Once upon a time, there were non mouth breathing GOP who were more fiscally conservative and socially and ideologically liberal. The so called RINOs who have been hunted out of existence. We had Connie Morella here. Virginia had Frank Wolf. They were Republicans but were for the federal government. These days they’d be threatened to change their policies until some proper GOP member was elected.
Tim Connor
This odesn’t really solve the mystery. All you have done is recast it as a slightly differenet question:
–Why do Americans persist in believeing the same Republican lies when they have been proven to be liers on these subjects again and again?
As my grandmother used to say:
-The first time is shame on you. The second time is shame on me.
Sad to say, the last 10 16 years in America are no recommendation for democracy.
Stefan
I think his argument was that a private-sector union can’t oust management if they don’t like what management is doing – they can only negotiate head to head. Whereas with a public-sector union, they can oust an elected official. Something like that.
What? How? That makes no sense. If they can just do that, why don’t the unions just oust Walker?
blah blah blah
sometimes people vote based on many issues and sometimes those don’t include issues that normally should matter to that same person. it’s complicated, but in it’s own way understandable.
However, there comes a time when you have to understand that you are voting against your own interests…
One of my best dudes works for the state of Ohio, right across from the state house actually, and everyone there is scared about what is going to happen to them and their co-workers, and for the rest of Ohio for that matter. But some of those same state workers actually voted for Kasich! and to them you gotta say, “you know, what did you expect would happen?”
as a resident of the great state of Ohio it’s sad that it took barely two months before people started wishing for the days of corrupt incompetent party hack Bob Taft…
Omnes Omnibus
@BR: Okay, you can point out that corporations can do the same thing, so fair is fair. Also, what aimai said.
Kay
@BR:
I think that’s a distraction. I think this argument ignores that they are employees, not simply “voters” or “taxpayers”. Does he believe that public employees should have a place at the table? This is where they work. I don’t work for the state of Ohio, so my role is more attenuated. I just vote.
He’s saying public employees should have less power than private employees, because private employees can join a union, and vote.
BR
Thanks for the arguments. I’m not sure these will get through to him, since he’s a sort of incoherent libertarian. But I’ll try.
Zifnab
@Stefan:
You don’t elect your boss.
Unless your boss is an elected official.
And I think the unions will be in full-oust mode the moment they have a chance to put anti-union state senators up for a recall.
kdaug
But what about Charlie Sheen?
Omnes Omnibus
@BR: Honestly, I rather suspected that from the nature of his “concern.” Sounds to me like the sort of person who is against “x” and every time you debunk his argument, he comes up with a new one, until, finally, he just says, “Yeah, well, I just don’t like it!” Best of luck with making the arguments though.
schnooten
@Darius: Good luck. I asked the same question without response. I don’t like the idea of the news scrubbing that.
DearOldDad
I do not feel sorry for union members who voted for republicans. (I also do not feel sorry for women and any minorities that vote republican, you deservie what you get) I do feel sorry for those who did not vote republican and have to suffer because of people who chose to vote against America’s best interest.
NonyNony
@Corner Stone:
Let’s start with the cops – they believe that Republicans are “tough on crime” and that Democrats are “soft on crime”. That Republican administrations look out for cops and that Democrat administrations coddle criminals. Whether that belief is true or not that’s conventional wisdom, and cops align their votes that way so long as Republicans aren’t attacking them.
Other public employees have their own axes – mostly social conservative issues and, let’s face it, tax issues. I’ve worked for a number of universities in the state and the unis have their share of anti-tax nutbars in various positions. Despite the fact that their jobs are paid for by taxes – some of the biggest libertarian free-market the-government-is-stealing-my-money folks I’ve known have been system administrators for state universities. The disconnect is amazing – no taxes, no job. Still they rail against taxes. The non-exempt employees – even the union ones – generally have their members who vote Republican because of social issues. Protecting the babies and keeping the government off their guns are the two most prominent ones (one janitor I knew at Kent State was very big on keeping the government away from his guns).
ppcli
@blah blah blah: Nostalgic for Bob Taft? Of the Taft-Hartley act? If he had been nominated instead of Eisenhower in 1952 what’s happening in Wisconsin might have happened 60 year ahead of schedule, on a national scale.
Edit: Ah, sorry. I get it. I guess you meant the grandson who did a couple stints as governor. Never mind. Move along, nothing to see here…
Common Sense
@BR:
ED had a nice link the other day to a libertarian arguing basically what aimai did — that public employees’ unions should be an effective counterpoint to a monolithic government.
If your buddy is as libertarian as you say, that should at least make him think for a minute.
Pangloss
@BR: Union-busting corporations have always had more control over elected officials than public sector unions, and especially now with Citizens United. Part of Walker’s union-busting legislation includes the right of the governor to accept no-bid contracts— what the hell is that piece doing included in a bill that eliminates collective bargaining rights?
kay
@schnooten:
I’m sorry, I didn’t see the question.
Try this.
Tokyokie
It’s OK that he liked because he believes in the Baby Jesus.
Roger Moore
@singfoom:
I’ve got a great idea. We can give the conservatards the parts that will be submerged after global warming melts the ice caps, and we’ll keep the rest.
kay
@NonyNony:
It goes one step out, too. Some of the biggest libertarian small business mavericks are only able to be small business mavericks because they’re relying on public employee health insurance and pension.
I find this situation absolutely amazing, and I run into it all the time. “Don’t think one step out! My whole theory falls apart if I do that!”
So, they don’t.
TooManyJens
@kay: It’s not there anymore.
I just sent an email to the person in charge of political endorsements at the Ohio FOP, to ask if they have the questionnaire available. I’ll let you know if I hear anything.
If you google “collective bargaining becomes a vital and important aspect of the negotiating process”, you can still see from the results that the quote was on the Dayton Daily News site earlier. I have a screenshot of the search results just in case.
kdaug
No, seriously people – the media has moved on. You guys need to keep abreast of the real news of the day.
Charlie Sheen – bipolar, or addict?
asiangrrlMN
@DearOldDad: Agreed. It’s all the people who didn’t vote for these asshats who are really getting screwed.
@Chrisd: Hear, hear. I know it’s not easy to be well-informed these days, but it IS possible to get the bare minimum info needed to vote. No more excuses for not at least knowing that Republicans are against taxes, unions, and poor people.
@gex: And, especially this. That’s why I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the union people who voted Republican. “Oh, I don’t care who gets hurt–as long as it’s not me.”
cat48
New NBC/WSJ POLL Just Released
But just 33 percent say it’s acceptable — and 62 percent say it’s unacceptable — to eliminate these employees’ collective-bargaining rights as way to deal with state budget deficits.
In addition, 77 percent believe that public employees have the same collective-bargaining rights (when it comes to health care, pensions, and other benefits) that union employees who work for private companies have.
NonyNony
@kay:
Oh agreed, but I find it even worse when they can’t think zero steps out. Their job is directly dependent on public dollars and yet their hearts desire is to eliminate all taxes.
And along those lines – ever know a guy who was a small business champion, who always insists that he did it ALL himself – took all the risks, built his company up from scratch – and insists that the government should stay out of his business and stop taxing him because it never did anything for him. And then you find out that he could only afford to do it because his wife is a schoolteacher and she was basically providing the safety net with her medical insurance and income while he went off and took all that “risk” to build up his business.
I’ve known THREE guys like that here in Ohio in the last 15 years. With exactly that same goddamn Master of the Universe mentality. one of them even bragged about how his business was built on university contracts – so he had it zero steps out and one step out and STILL was a giant anti-tax nutbar.
It’s no wonder the state is such a mess with people who can’t even think enough about their OWN self-interest to realize when they’re voting against it.
befuggled
@ppcli: As a Michigan fan, I hate to point out that Terrelle is from Pennsylvania, and Michigan would have happily signed him.
stuckinred
Fox News has suspended the contributor contracts of Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum, two high-profile Republicans widely believed to be running for president in 2012, for 60 days, the channel announced Wednesday.
TooManyJens
The person from the FOP wants to know if I’m a member, which I’m not. Do we have any Ohio FOP members in the house?
Joel
@NonyNony: I know quite a few libertarian types in the faculty ranks. More prominent there than in any other profession I’ve been involved in.
quaint irene
Oh, I think that’s been my favorite story today. That Fox reporter goes on O’Reilly last night whining about being attacked at the demonstrations. Which has turned out to be a lie.
And then to prove how violent these Wisconsin protesters are getting, the video they show seems odd. All the signs are blurred out. There’s no snow, noone’s wearing winter gear. And yup, there are palm trees in the background.
Nice job, Bill. Maybe you’ll explain that it was just meant to ‘represent’ violent protest in general.
Keep chanting, Wisconsinites, ‘Fox Lies!’
kay
@TooManyJens:
Thank you. This whole thing has been so frustrating to me,because I knew Kasich and Co. were going to be an absolute disaster, but there was this malaise. Like, “oh, well”.
Democrats and liberals have to start paying attention to state elections. That’s where all the law that affects people directly and immediately is made, and conservatives know it, and have known it for 20 years.
So, I’m frustrated. But thanks.
ppcli
@befuggled: Life in the reality-based community is exhausting. I reserve the right to have a perfectly, 100% fact-free attitude to University of Michigan athletics. The rest of reality is overwhelming enough. C’mon Red’s boys! Frozen four for sure this year!
kdaug
@NonyNony: Jesus, my mother and her husband are both exactly the same way.
Both are federal employees (CDC and GSA), who rail against government expenditures.
Both are nearing retirement, but rail against public employee pensions.
Both are members of the Federal Employees Credit Union, but rail against unions.
Oh, and they both watch Fox News.
The dissonance is cracking my fucking teeth.
ETA: I didn’t mean that Jesus, my mother and step-father were all Feds, just the last two… could see how that might come off as odd… oh, never mind.
fucen tarmal
@gex:
unless they are in an airport men’s room or on vacation with a rentboy.
kay
@NonyNony:
In this office, we call that “find the health insurance”. It’s always there. Behind many mavericks is a generous spousal benefits package.
It’s funny, because in the next county east from me is a big GM town, and managers at car companies have been bitching about that for at least 20 years. How many “small business people” they’re buying health insurance for, while those same people wonder why they can’t bring costs down.
bemused
I live on the Iron Range, MN, home of the steel now taconite plants. (The movie “North Country” was an accurate depiction of it was like for women working in those plants in the 70’s.) A lot of miners here, even the ones who have retired early, seem to have forgotten what unions have done for them. I can’t even begin to know how they travel that illogical road.
I know a rightwinger who has worked for UPS for decades getting decent pay and benefits but detests unions. I’ve seen his 90 year old father, a lifelong Dem who lived through the Great Depression, talk about current political issues as well as how FDR’s policies helped his family and his wife’s family when they were teens. They got hired on to work programs so their families were able to survive with that extra money coming in. He talks often about FDR’s government bringing electricity here and to other rural areas. His son seems to have a difficult time listening to this. He doesn’t want to argue with his elderly dad much but his face gets flushed and he moves around in his chair as if he is agitated. It’s pretty fascinating and disturbing at the same time to watch the cognitive dissonance on display.
The research is right on. The more people immerse themselves in wingnut media, the more resistant to facts people become. They are so convinced that all other media is lying to them that it takes a huge amount of reality, in their faces, hitting them and their families up close and personal before they can question who is doing the lying and why.
aimai
@bemused: @bemused:
I think this is the thing that most disturbs me. I am old enough to remember a time before Fox news. The major networks were pretty bad, but they were devoted to the notion of “balanced” coverage and their mid point was somewhere centrist/don’t rock the boat. The rise of Fox news and the full time 24/7 hate fest of right wing radio and news and entertainment in which absolutely everything, including the “and” and the “the” describes a manichean view of society has been incredibly harmful to the individuals who fall prey to it. People have been fed a line that one side is not only wrong on the policy but actively evil and trying to destroy America, Americans, and little babies. After that, what compromise can be left? Obviously it would be wrong to even engage with such evil people. And that’s what we’ve gotten. A two party system in which one party is basically sane and wants to govern and make things (marginally) better for everyone. And the other party thinks its in a RPG for the Armageddon.
aimai
sublime33
A lot of white union members in the building trades and manufacturing industries are not what you would call the most racially tolerant group of men you would meet. A friend of mine is up there in one of the building trade unions in Chicago told me they had numerous local meetings in 2008 and basically had to come out and say in so many words “Look, I know Obama is black, but he is on our side. He’s not the enemy. But the Republicans are out to destroy us, so keep that in mind when you vote”. And it worked pretty well.
Mike in NC
There’s a nice restaurant on Boston Street in Baltimore, called the Bay Cafe. Their motto is “Baltimore’s Best Beach!” and every year they truck in a dozen or so large palm trees and plant them in sand facing the Inner Harbor. The owner explained that they survive a surprisingly long time but do need to be replaced in the springtime.
fucen tarmal
@NonyNony:
i think the key element is the ego trip.
lots of folks think being against taxes makes them sound rich and manly and will get them lots of chicks, man. before they even get to how they are zero or one step out, its something they feel like they have to be, what they do, or how dependent their income is is secondary to the identity.
the indentity demands that they hate taxes. it almost makes you want to give them what they want with great velocity to watch them cry and recant once and for all.
schnooten
@TooManyJens: That’s what I noticed as well. I see that you’ve commented on the article asking why it was scrubbed, I can’t imagine what legitimate reason they would have for scrubbing it.
catclub
@bemused: Speaking of illogical paths. Maybe you have been in a situation where someone with an Irish surname objects to the illegal immigrants nowadays.
As Mark Twain said, “If you want gratitude, get a dog.”
Forgetting that one (or one’s people) have been helped in the past, is not exclusive. Everybody does it.
schnooten
@kay: Thanks, but as TooManyJens has since noted (and investigated) it appears the article was scrubbed.
Paul in KY
@ppcli: I guess that’s an Art Schliester quote. He hasn’t been quarterback at OSU in 30 years.
Makewi
Ohio Sub. S. B. No. 5
Explain please.
Paul in KY
@aimai: Exactly! Preach it, sister.
bemused
@catclub:
Oh yes. We, spouse & I, toured Ellis Island a couple of years ago and the immigrant discrimination story was and is the same. Just substitute nationality. It was amazing how the propaganda echoed what we hear today.
Svensker
@Gustopher:
Aren’t they usually the same guy?
redbeardjim
@Makewi: Skip down a couple paragraphs, nimrod.
aimai
@Svensker:
LOL.
aimai
Paula
@Cris:
Why wouldn’t it be okay to criticize people for, excuse me, not looking over Republican attitudes towards unions for the last few decades?
@sublime33:
Union member hesitation re Obama was a well-known meme. Anyone remember Richard Trumka’s viral video speech in 2008? He quoted Eugene Debs!
No seriously though, I’ll support the marchers, but this is what you fucking get when you vote for Republicans drunk on Tea. This is what you get for only worrying about your own immediate interests and not understanding how it connects to other interests. A lot of those newly Republican state legislatures/governorships are now lookin’ at Walker and going, hey let’s do that too.
I’m sure we’ll hear again how “there are polls” saying Americans support progressive legislation and some such bullshyt. But the gap between how WI voted in the last election and what they’re having to contend with now is proof positive that something is getting lost in translation between these “polls” and the ballot box.
Erik Vanderhoff
@BR: Yes, but unions don’t bargain with legislators. Unions bargain with management. Legislators just say how much money goes where. And it’s not like public sector unions have any more punch than any other constituency.
TooManyJens
Wisconsin voters are gearing up to recall Republican senators:
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/02/wisconsin-recall-2/
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Soooo….
The GOP lies. Hmm.
The sad thing is, even though this information is clearly now in the realm of “dog bites man,” we still have to make a point of getting the dog-bites-man story out, because so many people seem to think the dog is licking the man and giving him ponies and freedom. Because like all good liars, they lie about the lies, too.
Oy, my head.
MattR
@BR: There have been some good suggestions, but one other method of attack is to ask how little the government should be allowed to pay its employees. Or what is to stop the government from avoiding costs elsewhere by making employees pay more for their medical insurance? If the response is that they can look for other jobs, ignore the bait about the economy being bad. Instead ask who will end up filling these jobs if the salary and benefits are so bad. It will be the least qualified who can’t find a better job elsewhere. And then point out that your friend complains about government waste and inability to accomplish anything but now he also objects to the government offering enough money to lure in efficient candidates.
befuggled
@Paul in KY: It’s a quote from Terrelle Pryor.
I’m not surprised to see union members vote Republican in southern Ohio. A lot of the people I know in the area are conservative on social issues, like the idea of lower taxes and tend to vote on those issues. I don’t think many of them (or most people, for that matter) pay attention to the larger economic picture.
danimal
Union-busting has become a problem for the GOP. A lot of their support comes from white, middle-class union households because “union” is not a major part of this group’s identity. The union is ok, and is appreciated during contract negotiations, but otherwise, the union is pushed off into the background. For this group, there are other identities that are more visible and more likely to drive voting behavior: church parishoner, NRA member, right-to-lifer, etc.
With the GOP threatening an institution that provides their bedrock of financial support, suddenly “union member” is becoming more important in their identity ranking. I wouldn’t be surprised to see union voting go from 60/40 Dem to 70/30. That would be disastrous to the GOP in 2012.
Stefan
You don’t elect your boss. Unless your boss is an elected official.
If your boss is an elected official, “you” don’t elect him either. You cast exactly one vote, and only if you can convince a majority of the cititizens to cast the same vote with you is she then elected.
bemused
@aimai:
I often wonder how our friends and relatives who are very republican view us liberals. Do they think that we are good, smart people but misguided which is how we feel about them, or do they think we are evil soshalists that want to destroy america who deserve a bullet to the head. That is what they are hearing day after day. So how do they reconcile that image of liberals with their liberal family and friends who are living pretty much the same lives as they are, working hard at their jobs hoping to retire before 75, trying to raise their kids to be decent people, law abiding, yadda, yadda. It doesn’t make any sense and I don’t know how they can listen to these bizarre caricatures of all liberals and then work and socialize with us and not question what they are being told.
debbie
This kind of “about-face” after winning office just lends credence to what I believe: This version of the Republican Party will pay with sizable losses in 2012 and in fact may be out of power for years to come. They’re not popular with much of the younger demographic as it is, and now they’ve just cost themselves much of the demographic that had supported them. I think that in their pursuit of a short-term victory, they’ve lost any sort of longer-term prospects for themselves.
Are people in Ohio still talking about a petition drive for an amendment on the ballot?
Brachiator
@kay:
Damn. This, by the way, is why the GOP is now magically increasing the Huckabee Boehner “Obama was raised in Kenya by Kenyans” stuff. The new spin will be, “you have to ignore our lies because we are trying to save all you Real White Americans(tm) from the African Islamic Solzu list.”
Now that the all out assault on unions has begun, it will be interesting to see how many voters keep buying the GOP spin.
TooManyJens
The man from Ohio FOP says he’ll see what he can do about making the Hite questionnaire available. He also says, “But, rest assured we will not forget.”
drkrick
@Karen: Wolf is still in office and continues to be, as he always has been, a straight line conservative. He’s a little more solicitous of federal employees than the typical GOPers because any NoVA politician has to be, but he’s no Connie Morella.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Gustopher:
How can you tell the difference?
Mike in NC
@drkrick:
Ten years ago I was working as a contractor for a federal agency in NoVA and there was a clique of Ann Coulter worshipers in our office. Nothing would get those insufferable a-holes going more than bringing up the name Connie Morella, because she was a hated “moderate” who was willing to “compromise”.
I bet all those guys would qualify as RINOs today.
Stefan
Speaking of illogical paths. Maybe you have been in a situation where someone with an Irish surname objects to the illegal immigrants nowadays.
Wait, what? We Irish came here legally. That makes no sense.
Now, you might have an argument to note that it’s questionable for any Americans of whatever background to be against immigration per se, but that’s not the same thing as objecting to illegal immigration.
aimai
@Stefan:
Stefan,
Lots of people forget that even people who came here under cover of “legality” often had to break the law to actually get in. My husband’s family came here “legally”–that is, came through Ellis island when that was how it was done. But his great grandmother was turned back for having conjunctivitis and shipped back–she later had to come down through Canada illegally to join her family. Or look at Stephen Colbert’s ancestor who, he discovered, had committed a murder before coming here. No non-native american has the right to bitch and moan about “illegal immigration.” Being here at all is the result of sheer good luck.
aimai
Omnes Omnibus
@aimai:
Either that or sheer ruthlessness with respect to the indigenous population.
Steve LaBonne
Many of our ancestors came here legally. But by no means all. And there are plenty of Irish illegals here right now, and plenty more have come and are coming since the crash of the Irish economy.
Steve LaBonne
Many of our ancestors came here legally. But by no means all. And there are plenty of Irish illegals here right now, and plenty more have come and are coming since the crash of the Irish economy.
(Yes, I’m 75+% Irish despite the French Canadian surname.)
sublime33
“I often wonder how our friends and relatives who are very republican view us liberals. Do they think that we are good, smart people but misguided which is how we feel about them, or do they think we are evil soshalists that want to destroy america who deserve a bullet to the head”
We know a couple of Glenn Beck households, and our feeling is that they think that we aren’t as smart as we think we are. You see, only they have the true insight on how the Democrats/Islamists/George Soros/Rockefellers are really plotting to take over the world. And to truly get a deeper understanding of this, you have to watch Glenn Beck. And listen to his show. And buy his books. And his children’s books.
aimai
@bemused:
Bemused, I’m extremely lucky that I don’t have any Republican relatives. But my husband’s brother is married to a quasi/ex? republican, the kind who voted for Bush once, forgot to vote in 2004, and probably voted for Obama over and against Palin/McCain in 2008. I think she absolutely regards me with bemused curiosity and disbelief. She told me once that her bible studies group, for whom I was teaching the Seder, were more shocked that I was an atheist than that I was a Jew.
aimai
daveNYC
I remember a poll out a while ago that showed that a majority of Americans had a low opinion of Congress, but an OK opinion of their own Congressman. I suspect it’s the same for this situation. Liberals are evil and out to destroy America, but my liberal friends are simply misguided/foolish.
aimai
@Omnes Omnibus:
And, Also. Sheer good luck on the one hand–ruthlessness with regard to the former owners on the other. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
aimai
catclub
@aimai: Thanks, aimai.
Better said than I could.
Chris
@aimai:
This
@Steve LaBonne:
and this.
A ton of the older immigrants came here through less than legal means. And while Stefan’s correct that a ton of Irish arrived here legally, the same is true of Mexicans, Central Americans and other Hispanics. Plenty of them are here legally and get the same crap from “nativists” as their illegal brethren.
catclub
@aimai: “whom I was teaching the Seder”
Speaking of which, I think there are some passages there about ‘you were once strangers in a strange land*’ exhorting the participants to remember to treat foreigners better.
–*Not very veiled immigration reference
Stefan
Many of our ancestors came here legally. But by no means all.
The overwhelming majority of Irish came here legally (with most entering through Ellis Island). And while I’m sure some came illegally, until the 1960s why they would have done so is a bit confusing, since there was no real reason for them not to have been let in. To single out the Irish as especially hypocritical about illegal immigration is therefore nonsensical. The Irish have no more history of illegal immigration to the US than do, say, the Italians or Chinese or Eastern European Jews.
And there are plenty of Irish illegals here right now, and plenty more have come and are coming since the crash of the Irish economy.
Most estimates of current illegal Irish immigration are about 25,000 to 50,000 — so out of a total illegal immigrant population of 10mm, that’s at worst one-half of one-percent.
aimai
@Chris:
Yes, I wanted to make that point as well. The people who are being attacked as “illegal” are often native born Americans of hispanic heritage. A friend of ours is Hispanic, from New Mexico. My mother once asked her, innocently, how long her family had been in this country. The answer? 400 years. And they’ve got the baptismal records to prove it. Meanwhile until recently Boston was full of illegal Irish immigrants who had “innocently” overstayed their visas.
aimai
bemused
@aimai:
They probably forgive us because we aren’t watching fair and balanced Fox to know the truth.
One thing I noticed many of them have in common is that they have a difficult time putting themselves mentally in other’s shoes.
Stefan
Or look at Stephen Colbert’s ancestor who, he discovered, had committed a murder before coming here..
Well, Stephen Colbert’s ancestor should have been denied entry. Are you saying that the US has to let in anyone who wants to come here, regardless of what they’ve done?
No non-native american has the right to bitch and moan about “illegal immigration.” Being here at all is the result of sheer good luck.
That’s ridiculous — of course we have the right to complain about the laws not being followed. Everything in life, when you come down to it, is the result of sheer good luck, but that doesn’t give everyone license to ignore the law, and that doesn’t disallow me from complaining when they do.
aimai
@Stefan:
That seems an odd bit of statistics mongering. First of all, no one is picking on the Irish when they ask the Irish–as an immigrant group who ought to remember being discriminated against as savages (even if legally here)–to remember that they share a common humanity with other immigrants. Second of all, the Chinese are a weird group to pick on since they both came here legally and were wildly discriminated against: no legal immigration of women, no families, and no citizenship. Thirdly, the question is how many Irish immigrants are here illegally out of the total number of Irish immigrants here now, not out of all the potential immigrants from every group.
I highly recommend “Strangers from a Different Shore” by Ronald Takaki which covers the history of legal and illegal immigration for Asians as well as the very famous “How the Irish Became White.” Basically, immigration (legal or otherwise) is only half the story of how this country came into being. A very big issue is, and always has been, who can become a citizen after what period of time and under what conditions.
aimai
Davis X. Machina
@aimai: If at any time in the ’80’s or early ’90’s you’d have opened the front door of Linda Mae’s bakery on Morrissey Boulevard in Dorchester of a Saturday morning and shouted ‘Cártaí glas!’, the loss of life would have been catastrophic.
aimai
@Stefan:
Certainly. You have every right to bitch and moan about other people’s immigration status. If it makes you feel good–do it. The rest of us, I think, are merely pointing out that common humanity, a good dose of humility, and a little historical memory might make you a little less quick on the draw. But by all means bitch and moan as much as you want. If the Phelps family can picket soldier’s funerals I’m sure that the Supreme Court will defend your right to complain about illegal immigration. But your first amendment right to be a jerk doesn’t really affect how non government actors such as blog commenters will treat your comments.
aimai
urbanmeemaw
@sublime33: I remember my grandfather, an Irish immigrant with an 8th grade education, saying in the late 60’s that the labor unions made a huge mistake by not encouraging black people to join their ranks. I think it’s cost unions alot of needed support with many African Americans today.
Chris
@catclub:
““You shall not oppress the stranger, for you know the soul of the stranger, having been strangers in the land of Egypt.” Exodus 23:9.”
Mnemosyne
@Steve LaBonne:
Yep. As my (Republican) dad always says, the big reason why Ted Kennedy fought so hard for immigrant rights (including illegal immigrants) was all of the illegal Irish immigrants in Massachusetts. Teddy realized how hypocritical it would be for him to try and get special favors for his kind of illegal immigrants while cracking down on ones not in his ethnic group.
Mnemosyne
@Stefan:
Define “legally.” Up until about the 1850s, pretty much anyone who could pay for passage could stay in the country and thus was “legal.” If you did that today, you would be here illegally.
CaliCat
I give up. What will it take for seemingly functional adults to stop believing anything that comes out of Republican mouths? Republicans are liars. In fact, all they fucking do is lie. I desperately want the unions to win the fight in WI. But if Americans are going to insist on being willfully oblivious to what Republicans are all about then there’s little hope for any of us. Sorry, to be such a downer but I’m sick of this shit. All WI had to do was vote in the Democrat for governor and none of this would be happening.
Wait, I forgot, there’s no difference between the two parties…nevermind.
gene108
@Chris: Laws were different in the Ellis Island days.
Would those immigrants still have arrived here legally, if they had to comply with modern immigration laws?
Would modern day illegal immigrants be here legally, under those laws?
It’s not an exact apples to apples comparison, when you are looking at legal immigration from different eras.
gene108
@CaliCat:
Summary below:
Republicans aren’t limp wristed girly-men, whose women (Nance Pelosi)have bigger balls than they do!
Why would you vote for tree-huggin’ liberal fags? I want to vote for manly-men, who drive pick-up trucks, wear blue jeans and pretend that they are cowboys!
I think their priorities are misplaced, but that’s just me.
Stefan
Define “legally.” Up until about the 1850s, pretty much anyone who could pay for passage could stay in the country and thus was “legal.” If you did that today, you would be here illegally.
Oh, c’mon. Yes, if the Irish immigrants of the 1850s came up with a time machine and sailed into New York Harbor today, they would be doing so illegally. But under the laws of the time in effect then, what they did was legal.
Similarly, if I drank the cocktail I’m going to enjoy after work in 1922, I’d be doing so illegally. But under the laws currently in effect, it’s legal to drink.
I don’t think that “laws change over time” is quite the argument ender you may assume it is….
BobS
@bemused: You could be describing my asshole brother (union HVAC and quisling in the class war)and my dad (retired UAW).
bemused
@BobS:
The weird part is the son is not the usual asshole republican. He treats people fine and is a caring person, more of a grumbling R who buys into most of the spin. I’m sure he thinks teachers have it good and doesn’t make the connection between his pension and a teacher’s pension are probably very similar. It’s just strange that he turned out an R right from the get go with his parents & rest of the family always being Dems. It’s a mystery.
Carol from CO
Kevin Drum has an interesting perspective on unions and the two Parties. He says the Democratic party walked away from the unions back in the late 60s early 70s, not the other way around.
Neither party has done anything for the middle class for the last 30 year, but the republicans have adopted a social/cultural agenda that appeals to union member and others in the middle and lower economic strata. I’m guessing that’s the hook that caught them.
CaliCat
@gene108:
So true. I was just talking about this. I call it the Macho white-guy syndrome. It seems to trump everything else. It’s the main reason Reagan won. He was a shitty, ineffective president but he fit the mythical “rugged (white) American” mold to a tee, and so of course, he was worshiped by wannabe cowboy-rugged men all across the country. Sadly, the Democrats of the late 20th century never bothered to counter this singular image/brand with something equally attractive to the American populist…and it’s hurt us. It would have been a challenge to come up with a cohesive image/theme due to the big tent thing and all, but the Democratic party should have at least tried. Anyway, it appears too late now – the cowboy Kool-Aid has been drunk.
dianne
This will be a life lesson for the younger generation just the way Reagan was a lesson for me. I didn’t vote for him but my husband did and regretted it almost immediately. I never, in all the years since, ever voted for a Republican and never will.
Omnes Omnibus
@bemused: Is he a youngest child? There have been studies indicating that youngest children are most likely to rebel against family traditions. It supposedly includes political rebellion. I think the case is overstated, but who knows?
Nick
@Carol from CO:
Kevin Drum is wrong. See: McGovern, George.
Chris
Well, like the previous story (“Dodd to K Street”) shows, it’s very hard to prevent politicians from lying when they have an incentive to do so, and it’s very hard to generate any kind of accountability for lies if someone is (A) leaving office, or (B) over a year from an election (and not subject to a recall). I would say this is what primaries are for – but Dodd’s past that, and the state guy has to fear teahadists more than sane Republicans.
Because after *gay* Republicans, *sane* Republicans are the most masochistic group of people in politics.
Nick
@Stefan:
Also, immigrants sailing into New York Harbor in 1850 were doing so illegally. Immigration laws didn’t randomly pop up when Ellis Island was built. Ever hear of Castle Clinton?
Don K
@Gustopher:
Amen. In the 90’s, my State House district was represented by a very liberal Republican (first nominated because the right-wing crazies split their vote among several other candidates), who routinely won around 70-75% of the vote (and this district, while Republican, isn’t that Republican – there were lots of Dems voting for her). Now, there’s no way I could vote for her, because her first vote would be for a right-wing crazy as Speaker and a bunch of right-wing crazies as committee chairs.
Chuck Butcher
Due to the fact that certain types of immigration are illegal those offenders enter a job market that has essentially no protection for them and they become a serf class. If you’re all for the establishment of serfdom in the US then you have no problem with not enforcing hiring and work permit laws. You also have no problem with blue collar jobs suffering serious wage deconstruction. You will save about 4-7% on your bills depending on how labor intensive that industry is.
You save absolutely spit on the price of your house or strawberries in order to support something that would drive you to violence if it were perpertrated on you. The key isn’t building fences or running police state tactics on households – it is quite simply to cut off the money supply by holding employers seriously liable for cheating. I don’t give a good god damn if the employee is pasty white Irish, Hispanic, or green fucking Martian.
Chuck Butcher
Oh yeah, the comment functions really well ina separate window – since I don’t have permission to edit.
Well then fuck
I’d hire any of the above if they had the proper paperwork
Malron
Nice cover story for why union folks vote Republican that I’m calling super hella bullshit on. They don’t vote for Republicans because they let the GOP dupe them. They vote for Republicans because they want to punish the same people the GOP promises to punish with their policies every election cycle: the blacks, the Hispanics and the gays. The reason these predominantly white crowds of union members are up in arms in Wisconsin, Ohio and Indiana – the three states in the industrial midwest that are highly unionized but qualify as “swing states” every presidential election – is because they were fine with how shitty GOP policies were as long as they didn’t affect them. As long as the GOP followed the Ronnie Raygun playbook and dog-whistled about “those people” they could always rely on a bunch of so-called Democrats and Independents willing to support their policies.
Steve LaBonne
@Malron: Damn straight, and I have a front-row seat for this show in the form of my Republican co-workers. Soon they’ll discover that (though we forensic scientists at my county crime lab are non-union) SB5 is going to nick us on sick and vacation leave accrual and a couple of other ways, and I’ll laugh in their faces if they have the nerve to whine about it.
Paul in KY
@befuggled: Oh. I thought he was more on-the-ball than to say something I would think Art would have said. Thanks for the info.
NonyNony
@Malron:
If you have any subtlety at all in your reading, you’ll understand that that’s exactly what kay is saying. If the Republican candidate is lying and saying “hey, I love unions – I’d never do anything to hurt you guys” that frees up the union member to “vote his conscience” on “social issues”. For some of them that means voting the way their pastor tells them to, for some it means voting to “keep the government away from my guns”, for some it means against abortion, for some it means they can vote to “piss off those liberals”, and for others that means voting their racism.
This, actually, is ultimately “what’s the matter with Kansas” material. It isn’t that working class Republican voters want to vote against their own self interest – it’s that they don’t think Republican policies directly affect their self interest so they’re free to vote in ways that screw the other guy who isn’t them.