Catch-22 at Quantico
Not sure how many of you follow Jane Hamsher’s twitter feed, but she is currently being detained in the guardhouse at Quantico. Best I can guess is she was going to deliver petitions with David House, Bradley Manning’s friend, and was detained. She’s been there before, and never had any incidents, but now they have decided to step up a program of outright harassment. They won’t let her on the base or off the base, and are threatening her with arrest if she leaves. It’s pretty crazy. Way to go, America! Home of the free and land of the brave!
Now I know two things are going to happen with this thread. First, the Hamsher haters will cackle with glee. Second, the internet tough guy and worshipers of an authoritarian state will giggle about “You should know better than go on a military base.” If that is all you have to contribute to the debate, save us all some time and energy putting up with your bullshit.
They are now towing her car because they refuse to accept her proof of insurance. I think we all need to break out our foam fingers! USA! USA!
Towing her car seem unnecessary to me.
They are idiots for giving her attention.
January 23rd, 2011 at 1:54 pm
Well, mad props to Jane Hamsher for standing up to the security state and our distorted parallel “legal” system that it now runs.
(Off-topic, but.. NFL Open Thread? Please? Maybe?)
January 23rd, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Never forget that if powerful people don’t like you they have a multitude of means at their disposal to make you miserable. Opposing power is not for the impatient or faint of heart.
January 23rd, 2011 at 1:57 pm
USA! USA!
Oh wait no. I’m no fan of Hamsher, but this is beyond dumb. Hopefully someone in the White House reads twitterfeeds and can make a call.
January 23rd, 2011 at 1:58 pm
A principled stand in the face an oppressive government presence. Reckless? Foolish? Who knows. I am really anxious to hear the government line.
More and more I find myself in agreement with Seymore Hersh’s harsh assessment that the 2000 elections were a subtle and non-violent (for most Americans) coup by a handful of neocon Christian dominionists led by Dick (I owe my life to socialized medicine) Cheney.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:00 pm
@morzer: She’s obviously not a Steeler fan to be doing this on Championship Sunday. WTF!
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:00 pm
The friend’s name is David House.
The largest issue, remember, is that the government is holding the un-convicted Bradley Manning in hardcore solitary – what Atul Guwande and others consider toture—apparently so that Manning might dish on Assange, who merely did what journalists are do: publish classified info. How many amendments in the Bill of Rights can you crap on at once?
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:01 pm
I can only imagine her running her mouth off and not following Marine instructions.
Don’t know if you’ve been on Marine bases b4 but when they give you an instruction they are doing so under orders and they are conditioned to not stray from orders in the slightest.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:02 pm
The creepy part of all this isn’t that it happens, but that there is a large segment of the population that not only approves of it but encourages it. Add to that the increasingly politicized military and corrupt ruling class, and we have more in common with a lot of “dysfunctional” South American countries than we would like to admit.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:04 pm
Much as I detest the woman, this is beyond wrong. And arresting her will only feed her craziness. Hopefully, someone with a higher pay grade inthe DoD or WH does the sensible and right thing here.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:08 pm
Hmm. I’m completely indifferent to Jane Hampshire but am generally amused by the Hampshire Derangement Syndrome often displayed (in either direction). I also don’t do the Twitter (I “waste” enough time trying to keep abreast of events in the real world).
Having said that, do we have any inkling as to what was actually done by Ms. Hampshire to get the base authorities to start jerking her around ? Not an accusation of anything wrong on her part, but general mouthiness, not to say outright disrespectful behavior, on a military base can get you seriously jerked around. MPs and officers, in my experience (lots of years in defense electronics and weapons systems work, as well as a retired Army officer spouse), don’t have much of a sense of humor when they’re on duty.
ETA: I see mikefromArlington at #8 started down the path I was following.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:09 pm
This.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:09 pm
Her credentials on the health care / PO debate seemed to be that she was a breast cancer survivor.
If she’ll now turn this holding on indefinite detentions / civil rights more generally, more power to her.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:11 pm
@geg6:
Yes, exactly… even if you assume that she did something belligerent and “deserves” to be detained, there is no plausible world where detaining her serves the best interest of the government.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:13 pm
allz I’m gonna say is, if we thought she was insufferable before, now she gets to be a motherfuckin MARTYR. Way to go, USMC.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:14 pm
At least they haven’t declared her an enemy combatant.
If they do, they can’t be challenged in that assertion, and then they get to drop her out of a helicopter instead of just towing her car, and it would be as legal (or at least as legally unassailable) as church on Sunday.
So, please! They’re being moderate and restrained. Praise their moderation and restraint!
Maybe that behavior would get you off their list of potential enemy combatants.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:16 pm
I find Jane Hamsher sometimes annoying, usually irrelevant and frequently unintentionally hilarious, and I find this morally offensive and politically stupid. A blog story with very limited range (“I was denied access!” “First!” “I love you Jane!” Obama is a Fascist!”) is now a news story.
@mikefromArlington: @henqiguai: I don’t for a moment doubt she obnoxious, even deliberately provocative, but not a serious threat; somebody up the chain ought to have a sense of how something like this would play.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:16 pm
NO!
Way to display that on a military base there is no First Amendment. I guess.
John displayed class in letting all of us know this when we would have been just as happy to think about football and after all of the things Jane said about him.
(Update: They were letting Jane off the base a minute ago.)
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:17 pm
Having been active duty, these guys don’t play. Had an (unloaded) M-16 aimed at me for failure to promptly obey on order during a drill.
Not trying to play “blame the victim” but, given Hamsher’s known passion, I have to see more than her twitter feed to get a sense of the whole story. (The car towing is bizarre, though, on it’s face.)
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:18 pm
Looks like they’re kicking her out.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:18 pm
Not knowing anything about what Jane’s up to, I’m at least glad someone is taking up Manning’s cause. It strikes me as similar to anti-nuke activists being arrested for banging hammers on ICBM silo tops. They’re not harming anybody and at least have the courage to back their convictions.
Can you imagine McMegan doing something like this?
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:19 pm
I stopped reading Hamsher when she manufactured a “scandal” out of Coldplay’s licensing of musical riffs to the Navy. She’s become her own worst enemy.
—mf
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:19 pm
This is beyond scary, especially the part where we try to figure out what she did to “deserve” this treatment. But she’s in no way a “nobody,” so expect some consequences as a result of this incident.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:20 pm
@mikefromArlington: I am going to call BS here. If your job in the military involves interacting with the general public, you know that you need to deal differently with civilians than you do with other members of the military. If someone is a “bigshot” of whatever kind as a civilian, you make sure that the person is handled carefully and politely. This is being handled stupidly and someone should be called on the carpet over it.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:20 pm
And Obamamerica continues onward…
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Quantico is a bit quirky because while it is a military base, it is also an open base because of the shitheel little actual town of Quantico which is completely surrounded by the base.
They really can’t keep people off the base because they have to pass through the base to get to the town.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:25 pm
If this draws attention to Manning’s case, that’s good. If it draws attention to Jane, that’s tolerable.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Somehow I doubt anyone on that base on a Sunday afternoon has a clue who Jane Hamsher is.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:26 pm
I don’t hate Jane Hamsher. I do, however, hate the thought of wading through the eleven thousand words and fourteen updates that Greenwald will have written about this tomorrow.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:26 pm
@J.W. Hamner (#14 and a number of others):
Military posts operate in their own reality separate from the civilian world. Idiotic behavior on even the almost entirely demilitarized Hanscomb AFB in Massachusetts is still going to get you a chunk-load of seriously cranky MPs jamming weapons into every orifice. You’re conflating the daily detailed operations of “The Military” with “The Government”.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:28 pm
@Omnes Omnibus:
I gotta call BS, too, but from a different angle; I don’t trust JH farther than I can throw her. I’d welcome learning both sides of the story.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:28 pm
@Elisabeth: One, don’t be too sure. Two, Knowing what I know of Hamsher, I am pretty sure she made it clear to them that she is well-known.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:29 pm
@J.W. Hamner:
Perhaps someone in the WH DID make a call and that’s why she’s being detained. Just a thought…
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:30 pm
@kansi: Yeah, I’m really bothered by some of the reactions here. I’m not a fan of Hamsher; I stopped reading FDL a while ago, and I think ABL is right in her criticisms of it. But so what? I’m really disturbed by the attitude that we as civilians shouldn’t question the military, that whatever the military does to a civilian, that civilian must’ve deserved it.
Legal question, because I honestly don’t know: Does the military have legal jurisdiction over civilians, to the extent that their constitutional rights can be suspended, just as if you were military? If they do, is it only while on base? Or at all times? Granted, this is kind of academic—people with guns can do whatever they want to you, unless someone higher up takes action. All the laws we make are just agreed-upon fictions—they don’t mean anything if they’re not enforced.
Edited for really crappy proofreading.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Lord knows I don’t celebrate Hamsher’s entire catalogue, but seriously? That’s fucked up.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:31 pm
@Xboxershorts:
While I don’t think that assessment is too far off the mark, we’ve had a pretty substantial change in government since 2000, but this shit is still happening.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:32 pm
According to Jane Hamsher’s twitter feed, they are escorting her off the base now. So much for a turning point.
Sorry, John. I have become a deep fan of this website, but I don’t buy the Else Frenkel-Brunswik out of hand dismissals of any criticism towards some on the left’s attitudes towards Bradley Manning.
In fact, I find the disproportionate focus on Bradley Manning deeply symptomatic of the dysfunction pervading the activist left.
A person dies every second in this world from starvation, we still have a legal death penalty in this country, and (a deeply racially imbalanced) 0.75% of our population imprisoned.
And we’re worried about Bradley Manning?
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:33 pm
@Elisabeth: This. They likely didn’t have a clue who she was. I assume they have a procedure for something like this and if she didn’t follow their guidance, per their procedures, they likely escalated (towing the car).
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:34 pm
@Omnes Omnibus:
Repeatedly, and loudly.
Wouldn’t find it surprising if some variant of “I’m Jane mother-fucking Hampshire, bitch!” had something to do with her detention.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:35 pm
This is good news for Hillary.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:35 pm
@Arclite: Perhaps the whole WikiLeaks/Assange/Manning situation was set up by the White House to give them a chance to get Jane. Just another thought.
FFS don’t leap to theories of conspiracies at the highest levels when when pure dumbfuckery at low to mid levels is more likely.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:35 pm
“@mikefromArlington: I am going to call BS here. If your job in the military involves interacting with the general public, you know that you need to deal differently with civilians than you do with other members of the military.”
You’ve obviously never dealt with young Marines at a guardpost.
If you don’t follow instructions, ie. don’t cross that line, walk on that line, etc. they will raise their voice and tighten their grip on their weapons.
Like I said, they take orders very seriously, even more so than other branches of the Military.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:39 pm
There was some glee there.
So, what’s happened is that a PR stunt is generating some PR for Hamsher. Whocouldaknown!
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:39 pm
@Tlachtga: Um, it’s not just the military that might delay or stop you. Many office buildings, utility companies, and other businesses have security measures in place. So if she wanted to deliver petitions to ConEd in NY or GE in any of their plants across the US she’d be stopped…
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:39 pm
@trollhattan:
Never, but I can imagine her blogging about it… in support of the Marines, and getting all the details wrong, then blaming that on the flu.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:39 pm
[...] Balloon Juice we get to see the sort of harassment citizens are subject to when trying to do the things they are [...]
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:39 pm
@kdaug:
That would not excuse what appears to be happening.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:40 pm
Some years ago, Harold Koh and Jesse Jackson went to Guantanomo as part of an effort to free Hatian refugees being held there. The guard at the gate would not let them on the base. Koh demanded to talk to the guard’s superior, while Jackson took out his cell and called the White House. Within 15 minutes they were admitted. Jackson told Koh, “You don’t argue with the mailman.”
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:40 pm
She doesn’t have a constitutional right to go to Quantico. Let’s keep our critical thinking hats on.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:41 pm
@mikefromArlington: Situations similar to this one play out in urban areas all over American in poorer neighborhoods or specifically with African Americans everyday. So I feel their pain. That being said, so far as I know the Marine has not taken to twitter just yet to explain his side of things. So we should be a little cautious until more information comes out.
And as far as I know, military bases are governed by the Military Justice Code, so it’s just a different world when you step on the base—don’t know if that is a factor here, but it is something to keep in mind.
One of my favorite statements when I was in the military: The military isn’t a democracy, it just protects one.
EDIT: Folks cops can ticket and/or tow you if you don’t have physical proof of insurance even though they too have the ability to look it up. They probably won’t, but they have the authority to do so.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:42 pm
@Arclite:
To what end? It’s certainly possible for people to be idiots, but I can’t imagine why someone in the White House would think it productive to harass Jane Hamsher.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:42 pm
As much as I dislike Jane Hamsher and her rat-face, detaining her is really wrong and unwarranted.
John, some of us who justifiably, hate that annoying attention seeker, can still strongly disagree with a wrong action.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:43 pm
Manning was in the Military and basically committed espionage. Not sure why people are sympathetic to him tbh.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:44 pm
Clearly this is Obama’s fault.
At least they didn’t take her phone.
@calipygian: But you do have to pass through those do not fuck around gates and all the other stuff you find around military bases.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:44 pm
Jane’s stunt may have put an end to any future visitors for Bradley Manning. And Jane’s inevitable publicity tour (A Glenn Beckesque “Obama is out to get me” media blitz) will just further push Bradley’s story to the side.
If the MPs are such jerks, why are they letting her live tweet and talk shit the entire time? Spare me the faux outrage.
You go on a military base, you play by their rules. You can’t deliver petitions, you can protest, you can’t drive on base w/out proper car insurance documents (not a picture from a computer or cell phone). Jane is lucky she wasn’t handcuffed and search.
And someone was talking about racial imbalance, what happened to Jane today (much like the RapeGate cultural arrogance) happens to people of color across this country ALL THE TIME.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:44 pm
@mikefromArlington: i will grant that I have not dealt with Marines, but I have been an Army officer and I have had significant experience in dealing with civilian VIPs. Manning is known; is some circles, he and his plight are a cause celebre. There should be no surprise that a “prominent” person might take an interest. there should be procedures in place for how to handle such a situation.
One simply deals with civilians differently to how one deals with other soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:46 pm
For all of you who have no problem with this I have one question. Would you feel OK about this if John McCain won the election and was the president, of if this was happening during Bush’s term? You are damn hypocrites. It shouldn’t matter your personal feelings for the person being detained. Civil rights are for everyone.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:47 pm
LOL, agree with Cole, or get pre banned, or at least pre slammed. Not the blog I first came to headed toward 4 years ago. And for the record, if Jane is taking on the Marines, gawd hep those Jarheads, they gonna need reinforcements. Go Grlll!!
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:47 pm
@ Omnes Omninbus: I assume that procedure is along the lines of “treat celebrities like anyone else.”
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:47 pm
@The Dangerman:
Agreed. There are strong strains of drama and hyperbole in much of JH’s work. I think it would be good to get independent verification (if possible), rely on more then 140 character updates and get the other side of the story (if one exists) prior to indulging in possibly pointless outrage.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:47 pm
@J.W. Hamner: I don’t think Jane specifically was targeted, but I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to think that there was a decision in the upper levels to treat anyone who comes to support Manning harshly. Or it could have just been Jane mouthing off. Maybe we’ll find out more in a few hours.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Hasn’t any one ever explained to these young Marines the old saying about wrestling with a pig?
Let’s say you’re Jane Hamsher. You’re going to the Marine base at Quantico to deliver your petition. You’re hoping to shame and embarrass the Marines. What’s your best-case scenario? How about, getting unfairly screwed with so you and your mission get some press?
Way to go, meat heads. Hoo-ah!
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:47 pm
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen:
“Clearly this is Obama’s fault.”
Well, actually, it’s his administration abusing Manning, so, yeah, it is partly his fault.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:49 pm
I’ll be honest, that’s the first thought that popped into my mind. Also, her credibility is pretty much shot with me, so I simply can’t take her at face value. Not saying that she might not be right and she was held unfairly for a while, but I need a fuller explanation of what happened from people other than her.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:49 pm
@mikefromArlington:
As it turns out, being held in military detention for espionage kinda sucks.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:50 pm
@NoFortunateSon:
This.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:50 pm
@joe from Lowell: This is actually one of the reasons that there should be a procedure in place to handle a prominent protestor/visitor.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:52 pm
@joe from Lowell: He hasn’t been tried or convicted of anything and the last I knew you are considered innocent until proven guilty in this country.
Your lynch mob mentality is truly frightening.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:55 pm
@Omnes Omnibus: This implies that these particular Marines knew she was a prominent visitor or protestor in advance. Would something like this happen to Sean Penn? Probably not—he’s sufficiently well known that most folks know who he is. But Jane Hamsher???? And I don’t mean that as an insult to Ms. Hamsher.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:55 pm
@Omnes Omnibus:
And I’m sure an army officer who was frequently around VIPs would have been well-trained in such procedures.
These turgid young fellas, on the other hand, were clearly not just transfered from the White House detail.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:56 pm
@cathyx:
When George Bush was president nuns were arrested for trying to get on an air force base (to pray for the soldiers) in my hometown. They had no ID and tried to walk onto the base.
I didn’t feel bad for them and I didn’t blame Bush.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:56 pm
If you were really concerned with the plight of Manning, you would show up to deliver your little petition when there would be someone around who would or could do something with it. If you are more concerned with creating a scene, and leveraging it into more television appearances for yourself, you do it on a Sunday afternoon.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:56 pm
@RinaX:
Don’t be such an internet tough girl :-)
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:57 pm
If you’re involved in some semi-adversarial role with a government agency, and you’re visiting their premises on some sort of occasional basis in that role, maybe both sides would be better served with some sort of formal contact/liaison to avoid these type of incidents/PR SNAFUs?
Sure, assembly/redress/etc, but showing up (unannounced?) at a secure government facility to ‘deliver’ something? Bound to end up in some misunderstanding at some point.
Who knows what’s going on there today. Could be some VIP floating around. Could be security has been tightened for some non-public reasons.
I’d wager the base commander would rather this not be some big public issue either. Does the base have a communications director or similar position to at least be given a heads up before hand?
And if such measures are already being used, then I blame the base administration for mishandling the situation.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:58 pm
@cathyx:
So, therefore, pre-trial detention in a military brig has always been known for its cushiness and attention to the finer things.
I haven’t the foggiest idea why you’ve singled me out for what is a clearly a built-up reserve of Bradley Manning outrage, since I haven’t expressed a sentiment on the matter beyond noting that military brigs are not nice places to be.
For my part, your hysterical Protest People mentality is truly hilarious, in a campy sort of way.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:59 pm
@Omnes Omnibus:
I think you are missing the point. As the MP’s told them that this was from on high, this WAS the procedure in place. This was no accident.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:59 pm
@NoFortunateSon: Seriously? Yeah, only when we’ve fed the last starving person in the world will due process begin to matter!
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:02 pm
@cathyx (#57):
So is the rule of, and adherence to, the law. There are a different set of rules to be followed when you step on a military base. If you can’t play by those rules, don’t go there or leave when said rules are explained to you. Hell, I’m still waiting for the Air Force to return my expired military dependent’s ID (Army) after I asked about down at Nellis; their rule, apparently, is to confiscate the thing for destruction (they did give me a nice photocopy for reference when I went to an Army base); yeah, I’m precariously holding on, holding my breath…
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:02 pm
@Strandedvandal:
What? Of course you would!
There is nobody at that base, at any point, that is going to “do something” with a petition. This is pure activist theater, intended to make a splash. It’s textbook activist, and now the story is getting more attention, just like Hamsher wants it to.
What’s a marine brig officer going to do with a petition? This whole thing is part of a PR effort.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:03 pm
@John Cole: Then it is a different level of stupidity. I wonder what constitutes “on high” in this situation.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:03 pm
After reading the comments here it is now no wonder this country is going down the path of the erosion of our civil rights.
I’m sure you all consider yourselves democrats, and even though I would expect these attitudes from republicans, I’m appalled by everyone’s comments on this board. This country has no hope with the attitudes I see here.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:03 pm
The irony is that because Quantico IS an open base, she must have said something like, “Do you know who I am? I’m Jane Hamsher bitchez and I’m here to be a pain in the ass today” because normally the Marines at the gate would just check to see that you have a valid drivers license and pass you on your way, assuming you are there to eat at one of the crappy taverns in Quantico town or get a high and tight. I seriously doubt there is a BOL picture of her in the gatehouse, and there may HAVE been some technical glitch with her insurance if she were in a rental car.
Quantico is an open base because of the town – you just wont get “detained” at the gate if you are just passing through.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:03 pm
@KJ:
She called them and told them she was coming with the petitions. And blogged about it.
If the DOJ is subpoenaing Tweets, you think interested parties in the military don’t at least have Google-alerts for all-things manning and wikileaks?
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:04 pm
@Laura:
Please. If they were going to throw this kind of fit at her appearance, they weren’t going to let anyone serious near Manning to begin with.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:04 pm
@joe from Lowell:
No, stupid, it isn’t, but 23-hour-a-day isolation isn’t the norm either. That’s what people are complaining about, though there is some question about some of the details of Manning’s detention.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:06 pm
Jesus christ. You’re absolutely wrong. The reason they were here on Sunday was because THAT IS WHEN VISITING HOURS ARE. She was with David House, who is allowed to visit Manning, as he is on the approved list of visitors. In the past, when she has gone, they waved her right on through and she went to the McD’s while House visited.
This time, they intentionally fucked with them until visiting hours were over.
Fucking A, you people. Could you put aside your he-man internet tough guy shit and fucking know the basics before you start spewing bullshit?
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:06 pm
@cathyx: Paint with a broad brush much?
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:07 pm
@henqiguai: So since you were wronged, it’s therefore OK for anyone else to be treated incorrectly too.
What law did Hamsher break? She’s not allowed to give someone a ride to a military base?
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:08 pm
@cathyx:
Listen up, people, we’re not denouncing the marines’ behavior in precisely the terms “cathyx” has decided we should.
I hope you all understand the gravity of your error.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:09 pm
So we aren’t allowed to have a different opinion now? Is that it Cole? Hamsher is a shameless, lying fraud, who actively hates this Administration, and you are eating every fucking word she says with a spoon. That’s pretty god damn ignorant.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:10 pm
@Mark S.:
Go fuck yourself, sophomore.
Really. And your information about the detention of, say, John Walker and his sons comes from where, exactly?
You there, stupid?
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:11 pm
@cathyx:
That’s a good question. Is there a reason why we should believe her version of events? Have we heard any other version of those events?
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:11 pm
Sorry, but this reeks of publicity stunt by Hamsher.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:12 pm
@General Stuck:
If she’s leaving the base, how could she say she was being detained?
There must be rules for visiting Manning.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:12 pm
@John Cole:
Uhm, dude… 99% of the comments agree with you… I understand being offended with the SEMPER-FI HAMSHER SUXXORS nonsense, but I don’t really see it in evidence here.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:13 pm
@Strandedvandal:
Cole has a hard-on for Bradley Manning. So much so that he’s willing to completely ignore Hamsher’s penchant for mendacity.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:13 pm
@Strandedvandal:
Hey, dude, it’s like a giant mainlined cable stretched through the jungle, plugged straight into Jane’s Twitter feed. I mean, we took the mission, what the hell else we gonna do.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:14 pm
@cathyx:
Not sure anyone is okay with this. The question is what is “this?” I’d like to get more details than the twitter feed of one of the people involved. I’d like to think I’d say that no matter who the president is, particularly given it isn’t the president personally detaining (or not) Ms. Hamsher.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:15 pm
@John Cole: John, I haven’t foggiest idea what bee got up your ass, or why you think anything you wrote here:
has even the slightest relationship to, let alone count as a refutation of, anything I wrote. Are you sure this isn’t you getting all cuckoo-loco because you read what you wanted to see into something, like when you freaked out for no reasons because I used to the example of trash pick-up to illustrate an ongoing government activity?
What part of “delivering petitions is a PR move” do you find so distastefully suggestive of “internet tough guy?”
Take a few deep breathers, and strive for something lucid.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:15 pm
@cathyx: I don’t think he’s even been charged with anything yet. He’s in detention under conditions which could be considered torture. That’s why people care.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:16 pm
@NoFortunateSon:
And yet, despite those people dying of starvation, despite the death penalty, despite the huge amount of Americans who are imprisoned here you are, merrily blogging away on Balloon Juice? How many people died of starvation while you were chastising us and the rest of the activist left?
You’re a poseur and an asshole and when it comes to actually doing anything about the causes you claim to espouse, are every bit as useless as the lazy, cowardly conservatives who are all in favor of sending the US military into foreign countries but who somehow never actually join the military themselves. Your faux concern for the starving and incarcerated is every bit as nauseating and worthy of contempt as the faux patriotism of any Fox News anchor or conservative blogger.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:17 pm
@joe from Lowell:
You are beyond parody, you fucking moron.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:20 pm
@Wile E. Quixote:
You know, I don’t think NoFortunateSon was claiming to be an activist. The way I look at it is this: when’s the last time an activist of Hamsher’s ilk last took action on, say, police brutality on inner city minorities? Or no-knock raids that happen daily across the country? These aren’t intangibles, and there are activists who have done great work on those issues, but the prominent ones tend to go for symbolic causes rather than ones that are affecting the truly downtrodden.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:21 pm
one thing I find rather appalling on this thread is the suggestion of some that Jane fucking Hamsher somehow counts as more than an ordinary civilian and should have been treated by the Marines differently from how they would treat any other civilian.
That is a seriously fucked up attitude, and not because we’re talking about her. It would be just as fucked up if she were Mother Theresa.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:21 pm
@Cacti:
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
There is a long and glorious history of activists running afoul of the law and making political hay out of the authorities’ response, including quite a bit on military bases.
Personally, I find our host’s “How DARE you say Rosa Parks was anything but a seamstress with tired feet?!?” attitude a bit jejune.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:21 pm
Right now the details of this story appear to be coming from one side via Twitter. I think it is important to wait to get the full story rather than rush to judgment. After all, just yesterday this blog carried a condemnation of journalists who reported that Rep. Giffords had been killed before the full story was known from Tuscon.
Initial reports are often partial and misleading, and sometimes completely inaccurate.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:21 pm
@John Cole: Go drink a mojito you old crank. Stick that in your actual blog post so people will have a clearer idea of what the fuck is going on. From your original post I get “Noted Attention Seeker Jane Hamsher is being detained at Quantico (but somehow still able to Tweet about it).”
I swear to God I think you do shit like this because you’re bored and want something to get pissed about. Usually it’s kind of cute. At other times it causes me to think Balloon Juice should be renamed “OLD MAN COLE SHOUTS AT CLOUDS!”
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:22 pm
.
.
American Marines are clearly, in their preferred vernacular, the biggest pussies in the entire world – bar none – so it’s amusing to hear the balloonbagger arm-chair quarterback squadron (and I mean that literally, sports fans) cheer their violent co-heroes on so fiercely as they go about the important business of mindlessly obeying authority.
.
.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm
I’d would have thought that the DoD would be a little better at this by now. I’m sure the MP’s resent the hell out of having sensitivity/P.R. on their plates, but what the hell?It will be interesting to get the full story.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm
@PurpleGirl: Cathyx, I tied this comment to you because I wanted to extend what you said, not that I disagree with it. It occurs to me that might not be evident. And I let the edit close before I realized it.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm
seeing more of John’s replies, I see that my suggestion of pre-announcing their arrival looks to be SOP already.
So like I finished my post, I blame base admin (or higher) for this situation. Seems that JH and her companion were following the same procedures they’ve utilized before and were screwed with on purpose.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm
Sorry, but this seems more like a stunt-and not a very effective one. Sundays, nobody is there to even receive the petitions, let alone doing anything about them, and on AFC-NFC Sundays, even fewer people to pay attention to such a thing.
A protest elsewhere might have been better-at least the press would have been there to cover the event, and maybe a few members of the public would have been informed about what’s going on, and the contents/existence of the petition would have been public. Because Bradley’s conditions aren’t going to change until civilian authorities are made uncomfortable by the general public. Quantico is not it: it’s probably a company town.
As it is, it may jeopardize Manning’s ability to receive any visitors besides an attorney or a priest. They might even move him to some place even more remote and hard to reach than Quantico to discourage this sort of thing.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:24 pm
@Mark S.:
...and rebuttal as well, apparently.
I trust, that, if you had any sort of argument against anything I wrote, we’d have heard it by now.
This thread is very confusing for me. As far as I can tell, people are freaking out because I’m not mouthing exactly the rights words about their shibboleth.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:25 pm
@John Cole:
No, because this is the internet and most of the people here are as shamelessly clueless and lazy as any member of the WaPo editorial board. Seriously, if you’re on the internet what excuse is there for ever using the phrase “IIRC” (If I Recall Correctly)? Christ, open another fucking browser window, go to your favorite search engine and perform some simple search-fu and get confirmation instead of posting bullshit and prefacing it with IIRC.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:25 pm
When said publicity stunt involves a figure of dubious credibility, such as Ms. Hamsher, I’m immediately skeptical about it being 99% self-serving.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:25 pm
@PurpleGirl: No he hasn’t. But according to many posters here, he’s already been proven guilty.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:25 pm
@eemom: You are likely talking about some of what I said. Prominent people do not deserve to be treated differently, but, from my experience in the military, I can tell you that it does not play out that way. RHIP and all that.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:26 pm
‘@RSR:
If you think the twitter feed of one of the people involved is a credible source, you might believe that.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:26 pm
I worked on a Navy base for 20+ years and, except for “events”, air shows and such, you needed a local sponsor to schedule your entry on a particular day. People who arrive without prior approval were turned away at the gate, but not detained.
Something unusual is going on here, IMO
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:27 pm
@eemom:
It’s not that she “should have been” treated better, as if she deserves special treatment.
What we’re saying is, she’s a political activist out to score points against the guards/marines/military/administration/government/system/whatever. Towing her car even if her registration was actually screwed up is a just a stupid move on the marines’ part. It’s giving her ammunition, and the marines should be trying to avoid that, from their perspective.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:28 pm
@@John Cole: Sorry, John. When they tell you beforehand not to bring packages with you, and you bring a package, you’re in the wrong.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:28 pm
@PurpleGirl: No, I did understand that. Thank you.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:28 pm
@mikefromArlington:
And you know who else used “just following orders” as an excuse.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:29 pm
@cathyx:
And by many do you mean zero?
Seriously, no one said that.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:29 pm
@PurpleGirl:
@cathyx:
These are the charges against Manning.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:29 pm
I think there’s a piece we’re not hearing.
Did she have a video camera? If so, I wouldn’t be surprised by their reaction (not that it’s right).
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:30 pm
@mikefromArlington:
Ah yes, the mindless military mindset: vaunted enforcers of our Corporate/Fascist overlords. They are awesome, are they not?
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:31 pm
@joe from Lowell: I do agree that towing the car appears unnecessary and vindictive.
But from having driven on to a military base repeatedly, you have a lot of young guards instructed to be very restrictive about insurance. I have USAA, and I cannot tell you how many times I was held up at the gate trying to sort matters out.
No, you do not have a constitutional right to go to Quantico.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:31 pm
@cathyx:
He has been charged and is awaiting trial. Even those of us who don’t see him as a martyr or
some kind of hero, firmly believe he should be tried very soon and off of POI status, if that is called for.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:33 pm
There have been a few plots aimed at military bases in the last 10 years. The result has probably been a ramping up of the harsh stuff with visitors who “act up”. Not to mention that Quantico doesn’t sound like a place that’s used to handling protest of any kind either, unlike the School of the Americas.
In any event, I can’t say they shouldn’t have detained her. They don’t know who she is (there’s a world beyond these blogs and MSNBC) and there was a “Jihad Jane” who was working with some terrorist groups, so even the usual white blond privilege didn’t help this time. So until they know she’s not trying to create a distraction for something else, they have probably been instructed to detain anyone who seems obstreptous.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:33 pm
@de stijl: No, he is not guilty. No one here said that.
However, being accused of espionage in the military still kinda sucks.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:33 pm
@Cacti:
Look, I don’t like her much, either, but this is exactly what honest-to-god activists do. You could always claim that any activist is just in it for self-serving reasons, but what’s the point? It’s still activism, it’s still highlighting the issue.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:34 pm
@NoFortunateSon: Quantico is an open base because the base completely surrounds the actual town of Quantico. Doesn’t mean there aren’t guard shacks coming off of Route One (Jeff Davis Highway, BTW). But they really don’t stop anyone there unless there is a very good reason to, including no drivers license, bad insurance, or yes, mouthing off in a way to the guard which makes him conclude you are some sort of threat.
Not condoning, not criticizing, just trying to explain the quirky rules at Quantico.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:34 pm
@cathyx:
Is there another thread going on, with a bunch of comments only you can see?
Does anybody have the foggiest idea what this person is talking about?
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:35 pm
@NoFortunateSon: And where do you discern they were carrying packages this time?
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:36 pm
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen: I posted a link to her twitter feed so you could read all the details.
Although I do like Old Man Shouting at clouds.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:37 pm
Sorry Joe, I admit to being cranky and going off half-cocked.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:38 pm
@NoFortunateSon:
And that’s what I think we’re talking about: some youngish guys who were adhering as strictly to procedure as they’ve always been trained to, and in doing so, created a little incident that can only serve to help Hamsher and her cause.
I think the idea that ZOMG! BARACK OBAMA ORDERED THE GUARDS TO DETAIN HER! (an idea that has been expressed more often on this thread than “he’s already been proven guilty, since any positive number is greater than zero) is just silly. This does sound like ordinary, regular base security doing their thing. That doesn’t mean it was the right way to handle her.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:41 pm
why iz my comments getting eated?
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:41 pm
Just proves once again that you should book with Expedia.com before you travel.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:41 pm
@joe from Lowell: That would mean the guards on the gate knew (or should have known) who she is. If it weren’t for blogs like this my life would be 100% Hamsher free.
Now if Cole comes back and posts FUCK YOU GUYS, 80% OF MY TRAFFIC COMES FROM QUANTICO/TRIANGLE VA, I’ll have to amend my statement.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:42 pm
@NoFortunateSon:
No you don’t, but what we have here is a case of the military punching itself in the face and asking itself whether it likes that and whether it would like some more.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:42 pm
@eemom:
It’s been doing that to me also lately. The last time, I removed a link and it worked then.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:42 pm
@joe from Lowell:
This.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:43 pm
eemom:
becuz they iz delicious, nom nom nom.
.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:43 pm
@John Cole:
John, if you didn’t get cranky and go off half-cocked, I wouldn’t read your blog.
No prob.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:44 pm
@John Cole: Um… wasn’t she bringing the petition of 42,000 signatures?
But again, those are her words, and we all have to operate under the assumption that Jane is telling the truth…
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:46 pm
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen:
Should have known. Should have been briefed by higher-ups, who should be kept aware by somebody in their office about the political brouhaha they’re in the middle of.
Because Jane Hamsher, Atrios, and Glenn Greenwald are now going to drink the Marines’ milkshake for a month.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:47 pm
@The Dangerman:
That’s my take on it as well. She’s a known liar, so I’ll need to get more information to see what actually happened. Unfortunately, this incident is just going to earn here more invites on MSNBC where she can bitch about Obama being worse than Bush.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:47 pm
Well, Cole, I learned more from reading the comments on what happened then your original post, so that part’s bad on you.
As for the rest you’re yelling about, consider the sources.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:49 pm
I just signed on and haven’t read all the comments.. but Jane at one point said her insurance card was expired and then mentioned they wouldn’t take her electronic one.
What’s an electronic insurance card???
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:49 pm
@J.W. Hamner:
It’s like watching a horror movie.
No, marines! Don’t split up! Don’t check out the noise in the basement! Don’t detain the blogger/activist with the box of petitions! SHE’S RIGHT BEHIND YOU, AAAAAAAAAAHHH!
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:49 pm
@MikeJ: no, haven’t seen those tweets; I’m reacting to John’s comments.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:51 pm
well dang. I have this TOTALLY perfect snarky comment I keep trying to make and it keeps getting eated. And I removed the doggone link.
Oh well. See, up above, someone said John has a “hard on” for Bradley Manning, and I couldn’t POSSIBLY resist the temptation to correct him about who John REALLY has a—well, you know. : )
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:54 pm
@JPL:
I could be wrong, but when I got pulled over a few years ago in this small town, the officer wouldn’t accept my paper proof that showed expired, but my insurance wasn’t, and I’d just forgotten to swap it with the updated card. In some states or towns, the cops are connected electronically to the states insurance data base for autos, and can confirm that way. This also has happened to me. Other places, either can’t do that, or don’t allow for it.
edit – and I expect Jane’s insurance was out of state as well.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:54 pm
@JPL:
The Intertubes. How does it they work?
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:57 pm
@RSR: And John said he got his information from Jane’s tweets. If he has more info, I’d love to hear it.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:57 pm
@General Stuck: That makes sense. I had visions of her trying to pull up a copy on her i-phone which would be silly.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:58 pm
@eemom: Not eated, detained at the wordpress gate.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:58 pm
@joe from Lowell: Are you from Lowell, MA? The incident I describe was from Hanscom. I never got the impression that the AF put their best and brightest at the front gate.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:00 pm
I blame Obama, ‘cause, like, he sold us out, man (snark).
I’d like to see more than just Hamsher’s tweets about this incident, myself.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:01 pm
@General Stuck: Well, the car insurance was also in Grover Norquist’s name, so that obviously caused problems too (I kid! I kid! Come on people)
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:03 pm
This article has few more details:
That sounds a bit sketchy.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:05 pm
DO. NOT. FUCK. WITH. DAWGS. When they are on duty they are following orders period. There is no deviation. If they were ordered to detain Hamsher they do it. JC well knows the military is not a democratic organization. But I’m in the need more details camp, someone said or did something that caused this to occur.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:05 pm
Note to self: if I take a petition to a military base, I better do it with an army of lawyers backing me up. Someone needs to get on the phone with a judge to get an issuance or something, maybe even some arrest warrants issued against the base guards for unlawful detention. EDIT: I visited FDL for the first time in months to see what the word was, and apparently after a few hours they were let go. Still and all, it doesn’t look good for the military.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:05 pm
@cathyx (#88):
No, nitwit, and I wasn’t wronged. Annoyed, yes, but not wronged. They got rules and I unknowingly ran into one of them; and admittedly, not entirely unexpectedly since I assumed that was a possible outcome. Since the only time I would need the ID card would be to go into Hanscomb AFB commissary, which I don’t do, I just didn’t care. And the point is, if you run afoul of their (entirely legitimate) rules, expect their interpretation of an appropriate response.
And I say this even after reading John Cole’s comment.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:05 pm
@NoFortunateSon: Yep, Lowell, MA.
I don’t think I’ve ever been to Hanscom.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:06 pm
Because Jane Hamsher, Atrios, and Glenn Greenwald are now going to drink the Marines’ milkshake for a month.
Mmm. No. I’m going to give the guards credit and assume they know they have a controversial detainee. They don’t need to know the name of each individual who MIGHT show up and attempt to make a statement.
As for milkshake drinking by that bunch. I think the USMC will survive. And this is before the USMC issues its side of the story.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:06 pm
@John Cole: this
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:08 pm
A few more than there was a little while ago.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:09 pm
Want to hear a gate horror story? I knew a guy who had an appointment at a TLA. When asked at the gate, “do you have any weapons?” he replied, why yes I do, here’s one, and there’s another in the car. All legal, none hidden.
Took months to unfuck.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:12 pm
@nestor:
And this coming after claims of Jane tweeting lies about Cole a while back. Could this be a turning point in this stormy, though highly entertaining, twist of blogging soul mates? Stay tune for next week’s episode of “As the Tweet Turns”
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:13 pm
If you want to petition somebody out of jail, you don’t go to the jailers. You go to the court. Going to the gate to demand action at a military base is bone stupid. The gate is not manned by Judge Judy. Their job is to keep your ass out.
Unless your goal in the first place is to get locked up and attract attention to yourself. Hmm.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:13 pm
@joe from Lowell:
My snarkometer is a bit off today, but in case it is properly attuned: I’m fairly certain the USMC won’t care.
This is partly why I’m a bit unconvinced about the whole “they should have known this would create a big political mess” argument. It seems predicated on the notion that the entire world, and the myriad concerns that plague it, is not much bigger than a network of liberal blogs. In other words, of all the things that the commander of MCB Quantico has to occupy his attention, liberal bloggers are likely not very high on that list.
Call it a hunch.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:13 pm
Say what you want about Jane but she’s got big ones. You Jane haters, not so much.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:14 pm
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen:
They knew that this particular individual was showing up with a box full of signatures. How big do you think a 42,000-name petition is? Big enough to count as a “package,” apparently.
So, this was obviously not just some crank showing up at the gates. This was a crank with enough of a following to get 42,000 signatures on this petition.
Are you saying that you think they handled this episode just wonderfully from a PR perspective? What if the statement about “orders come from on high” actually does mean that they were told to single these people out for harassment?
If you’re explaining, you’re losing. The marines survive? Oh, the U.S. Marine Corps will be fine, regardless of how the Manning detention issue blow over. On the other hand, there are people trying to win a PR fight here – a PR fight, btw, which revolves around the marines’ detention and security procedures.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:16 pm
Now, how can we blame Congress or the media for this?
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:16 pm
@PurpleGirl (#100):
From Manning’s Wikipedia page
And on the inhumane conditions thingie – recall (Chinese-American nuclear researcher) Lee who was accused of leaking critical US nuclear information; 9 months in solitary and he was considerably older than Pfc Manning; where’s the outrage.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:17 pm
@scot:
Yes, big ones. If only she had the brain to go with them. Whatever they are.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:18 pm
@scot: What an insensitive thing to say about a breast cancer survivor.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:18 pm
I am not surprised that Hamsher did what she did. And, I am not surprised that the guards acted as they did.
Eventually, Hamsher will be released.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:18 pm
@mikefromArlington:
Manning has been accused of committing espionage, but he hasn’t been convicted. According to standard rules of jurisprudence, we’re not supposed to punish people until they’ve been convicted. Any pre-trial detention is supposed to be only to make sure they show up for their trial.
Instead, Manning is being held under conditions designed to punish him and coerce him into turning against his alleged co-conspirator. Those conditions are being imposed under the obvious fiction of a suicide watch, and they’ve been maintained for months even though a suicide watch is supposed to be for a very limited duration.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:18 pm
@General Stuck:
Still holding out for that John-on-Jane action?
Okay, me too.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:19 pm
@mario:
John apologized for that comment, describing it as “going off half-cocked,” half an hour ago.
LOL. “This.”
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:19 pm
@joe from Lowell:
And of course Jane getting herself detained is EXACTLY the way to change those. Jeez. And actually looking at the way the RawStory article is written it almost seems like they didn’t arrive together. Methinks there are definitely more layers to this onion.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:20 pm
Thymezone
Don’t know, but the foreplay is teh awesome.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:22 pm
@General Stuck:
Good point.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:23 pm
@cathyx:
Wow, you must have used a vaulting pole to jump to that ridiculous conclusion.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:23 pm
You can take my freedom, but you can never take my TWEEEEEETTTDDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECCCKKK
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:24 pm
I don’t see why people are running down the value of getting yourself arrested to bring attention to your cause.
Haven’t any of you making this argument ever heard of Ghandi? Rosa Parks? This isn’t some Hamsher-specific tactic.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:25 pm
@Sly: You know, I was just thinking the same thing before I read your comment. The little group of liberal bloggers who like to criticize Obama’s administration on MSNBC speak to a very small percentage of citizens. I think the marines will survive any dust up with them just fine.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:27 pm
good on you john for not being as petty as hamsher is. she would mostly likely not afford you the same courtesy. certainly not without calling you a misogynist.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:27 pm
Don’t care about Jane, even before I felt personally lied to by FDL on the public option/health care fight. What happened is wrong, but not out side the norm for conduct on a military base. I’d rather find out exactly what was happening from another source besides JH’s tweets. No offense to those who think she’s extremely principled.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:28 pm
Here’s what I think: we probably need a bit more information than the twitter feed of a woman whose relationship with facts has always been a bit distant, and who has a vested interest in her own victimhood, before we can start casting judgements on anyone involved.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:29 pm
Wen Ho Lee?
I was there. I even know his name.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:30 pm
So, this was obviously not just some crank showing up at the gates. This was a crank with enough of a following to get 42,000 signatures on this petition.[FUCKING WORDPRESS BLOCKQUOTE SHOULD END HERE]
OK, let’s look at it this way. You’re standing guard at the entrance to a military base. I show up and say I have a petition with 42,000 signatures. I’m not dumb enough to brandish the box or big fat manila envelope at you but I’ve got it on my lap or something.
Do you think “Wow, 42,000 signatures, he must be someone serious, better let him in.” or do you think “What are my orders in regards to people who show up at the gates with packages” and proceed accordingly? (Hint: The answer is #2).
I don’t know, haven’t seen a statement yet. Considering the fact I avoid going on bases because of the high hassle potential, I don’t even know if this event unusual in terms of what happens at military gates (please don’t suggest that Jane or any other blogger should get special treatment because they can, will or might cause trouble). So far all we have is Hamsher Tweets. If you’re suggesting the USMC should have issued counter-Tweets to combat the flack from her Tweets … No. Stop. Do not want.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:31 pm
Could have happened this way. But my experience being in the military, is that they generally would just as soon be dipped in acid, than purposely create the public shitstorm this is, and will for a few days, likely cause.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:35 pm
@Peter:
But she’s a modern day Rosa Parks with a dash of Ghandi.
Who are we lowly hoi polloi to question her lofty motives?
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:36 pm
‘As much as I find Jane Hamsher annoying/Keith Olbermann pompous/Glenn Greenwald strident …’
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:36 pm
You damn skippy.
Let me commence: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:36 pm
I find the FReeperish Hamsher/Greenwald hate on this site teh awesome. Inferiority complex much?
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:37 pm
Too funny
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:38 pm
@JPL (#151):
Wait, what ? You mean the guards were, in towing her car out of the very very limited parking spaces around post gates after she couldn’t prove she was insured, playing by the rules ?!
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:38 pm
@Cacti: If Gandhi were around today, we’d all hate him for mistreating women and consider the Salt March an act of self-aggrandizement we’d call the ‘condiment brigade.’
“As much as I agree that Gandhi is a publicity whore, I support his …’
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:38 pm
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen: That’s evidently what SOME people want, though. Maybe an exclusive interview with the guards at the gates.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:39 pm
@D-Chance.:
Lol, fuck you. I’m sure the President gave order to detain this loony broad.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:40 pm
Hm. How do you feel inferior about the Norqust/Hamsher team up? Seems kinda irresistable for snark.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:40 pm
@DennisCA:
Project much?
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:41 pm
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen:
Once again, as I’ve already explained, if you’ve just been given the regular briefing about people with packages, you think “#2.”
Why do you think I wrote this:
Yes, these guys were just following procedure. No, that does mean the procedure was the right one.
Let me get this straight: you can’t offer any opinion about whether the handling of this episode was politically adept until the marines release a statement telling you your opinion?
OK. Let us know what that is, when you know.
Let’s stipulate that it is.
Too bad. That’s exactly what I’m suggesting. Don’t walk into traps.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:41 pm
@DennisCA:
It has been my experience that many people confuse contempt with hatred. A good way of discerning the difference is that jealousy only produces the latter.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:42 pm
It doesn’t seem that VA requires drivers to be insured. You can either buy insurance or pay a one-time $500 fee. Weird, but there it is.
That said, they were on federal, not VA, property, but it’d be surprising if there federal rules on this topic.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:43 pm
@NoFortunateSon (#160):
They’re now security agency operatives; at least, they weren’t military (well, on that Sunday ‘bout three weeks back).
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:43 pm
@Oscar Leroy: Did you get bored mocking racism at FDL?
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:44 pm
@Thymezone:
It’s just a matter of time. The decorative theme of the wedding will be rainbow unicorn puppies.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:44 pm
@nofortunateson
“A person dies every second in this world from starvation, we still have a legal death penalty in this country, and (a deeply racially imbalanced) 0.75% of our population imprisoned.
And we’re worried about Bradley Manning?”
Generally I just read without commenting because I’m pretty sure everyone else is going to get around to saying anything I might contribute. However, I have a pet peeve, which relates to comments such as the above. It seems that, in any discussion of Is This A Bad Thing Happening Here, there will be some pious comment that there are people starving, and children stepping on land mines, and there’s pollution and strip-mining and drug violence and people getting killed with machetes etc. and why aren’t we concerned about THOSE bad things instead?
Oy. We’re worried about all those other bad things too, we’re just not talking about them Right Here and Now.
I don’t know if this was a stunt or not and I know nothing about Hamsher; at face value it’s been very unsettling to me. I’m very interested in seeing what the official story will be when it comes out tomorrow.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:45 pm
@DennisCA:
Hey, everybody, look! A Glenn Greenwald fan who attributes disagreement to moral and/or psychological shortcomings among those who disagree with him!
Well knock me over with a feather. That’s simply un-possible.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:45 pm
@jpe:IIRC from nearly 20 years ago, we had to have insurance to drive on the base.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:45 pm
@henqiguai: John should change his comment at the top.
Jane tweeted she didn’t have the hard copy and it sounds as though she tried to pull up a copy on her i-phone or blackberry. Try that sometime if you are pulled over.. lol
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:47 pm
@Sly: this. see: kanye westian usage of “haters” (often spelled “hatters” on the intertrons”.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:48 pm
@Laura:
THANK YOU.
So excuse me for not being sympathetic to Miss Anne—er, I mean, Jane.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:48 pm
@General Stuck: 3-line Graffiti on my College bathroom door:
”
“I LOVE GRILS
In a different hand: “It’s GIRLS, moron, G-I-R-L-S”
Much smaller different hand: “but what about us grils?”
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:50 pm
Bush 2.0, simple as that.
I could puke.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:51 pm
Th e way they’re treating Manning is as appalling as anything we saw from the Bush Admin.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:52 pm
@Ronzoni Rigatoni:
I thought it’s GRRLS! :D
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:54 pm
Keyboard warriors. What a laugh. I’ll take Hamsher in my corner anyday.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:56 pm
John, the way you’re acting, I am convinced that you will not be satisfied that we are sufficiently outraged, unless every comment is of “Today we are all Jane Hamsher” variety.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:57 pm
@jpe:
Five seconds on Google brought up this, from the USA Today travel page:
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:58 pm
@scot:
Down with feeble “keyboard warriors”! Up with the mighty “Twitter warrior”! Changing the world in 140 characters or less!
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:59 pm
@ Omnes Omnibus: After I read your comment, I did a little googling and it seems you’re right. (one base’s site even specified “physical” proof of insurance)
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:00 pm
It’s called getting both sides of the story. Call me old fashioned, but one person’s Tweets don’t constitute proven fact for me. However, I’ll say this much: If they treated her exactly as they would have treated me or you or any other person in the same circumstances, then yes, it was politically brilliant.
If my choices are: Guards who make up special rules based on the number of hits someone’s blog receives OR Guards who treat everyone who show up the same, I pick door Number 2 every single time.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:00 pm
@scot: No, thanks, I’d prefer someone competent.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:01 pm
@DennisCA: @DennisCA:
Man, have you got that right. The Greenwald/Hamsher hate here is far out of proportion to the crimes alleged by the haters. I think it may have to do with an out of proportion emotional attachment to Balloon Juice exhibited by many BJ Kool Kids at a level that far exceeds that of the blog’s originator and proprietor. It’s weird.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:01 pm
Oh dear sweet Christ, I have no use for the woman but I don’t want to believe that.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:02 pm
@Chyron HR
the difference is Jane is confronting marines. You are in the basement
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:04 pm
@Zuzu’s Petals: Are you implying Jana Hamsher should be treated like everyone else? How dare you!
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:08 pm
@henqiguai:
Of course they were. That’s how most abuses of authority happen.
Suppose a cop decides they don’t like you. So they keep an eye out for your car, and they pull you over and ticket you for every violation of the law. Every time you’re 1 mph over. Every failure to signal, even when alone on the road. Every time you should stop completely and instead just slow to a crawl. Every minor parking infraction, dim bulb, or speck of dirt “obscuring” your license plate.
Is that playing by the rules? Surely. Is it an abuse of authority? Definitely, because they are following the letter of the law while twisting the spirit.
Unless they tow every car that turns up without paper proof of insurance, then this is the same sort of bullshit. As with Manning, they are using their authority to punish people for daring to challenge that authority. Typical in corrupt governments and totalitarian regimes, but it’s the sort of thing I was raised to believe is unamerican.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:09 pm
@Zuzu’s Petals:
So, what you’re saying is, this could have been avoided if Jane had followed a simple rule of general application, that was neither unfair nor unjust?
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:09 pm
@scot: I’d be REALLLLLLLLLY careful about throwing around comments like that.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:11 pm
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen:
This is from Jane’s own tweet
This is from the firedoglake site..a recap of the events
lol
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:11 pm
@scot:
A Few Good Men 2: Kaffee Gets His Car Towed Away
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:12 pm
@JPL:
Jane has driven House to the base for his visits with Manning before, and has produced the same copy of car insurance previously. It is only this time that they are preventing them on base and towing her car, which will cost her $300 to get out of impound. Despicable.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:14 pm
@300baud:
That’s how it happens in non-totalitarian regimes, too, though.
The problem is that, based on the facts, there are multiple explanations behind the facts. I can easily believe that Hamsher is being harassed by a tin-plated, bureaucratic dictator. I can also believe Hamsher is an incompetent twit that brought a lot of this on herself.
Need to know more.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:15 pm
@Awktalk:
Insurance cards expire.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:16 pm
@Awktalk:
My God.
Is there no end to the injustice in the world?
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:16 pm
Man, have you got that right. The Greenwald/Hamsher hate here is far out of proportion to the crimes alleged by the haters.
Speaking of crimes, how is “Accountability Now” doing these days? Did Hamsher and Greenwald ever get around to actually helping Democrats or have they stuck to funneling cash directly into their pockets?
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:16 pm
@300baud: I will personally guarantee that if you or I were to show up at a guard shack and could not produce proof of insurance if asked that we would both be towed and told “tough luck”.
Them’s the breaks.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:17 pm
@300baud (#236):
Um, no. Malicious compliance is a pain in the ass, but it’s not abuse of authority. It’s damned inconvenient for everyone involved because of extra work, but again, not an abuse of authority. If it were an abuse, the root cause is the set of rules being enforced. Or, as with all those idiots who were insisting Obama issue an Executive Order to make the military disobey Federal law regarding openly gay military personnel, are you saying the authorities should be allowed to cherry-pick laws to enforce, and against whom they should be enforced ? Really ? ‘Cause, dude, been there, lived that.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:18 pm
@JPL:
“Jane tweeted she didn’t have the hard copy and it sounds as though she tried to pull up a copy on her i-phone or blackberry. Try that sometime if you are pulled over.. lol”
Agreed – I can’t fathom going ANYWHERE in my car without the insurance & registration cards. But she also tweeted that previously they had accepted her “electronic proof of insurance”, whatever that is. Also that it had been previously OK for her to drop off House & wait at the McDonald’s nearby till he was done visiting…which makes it sound like this time they decided to be hard-nosed towards them. I didn’t know about the protest earlier – but she did give advance notice that they would be bringing the petition.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:18 pm
@scot:
Oh, I’m sorry! She’s no mere blogger, she’s a blogger who has declared Twitter war on the USMC! Good luck with that.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:19 pm
@JPL: Well. Fuck it. Just fuck it.
Breaking down and jumping into the TweetStream:
GAH! Let me back in the boat!
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:20 pm
@scot:
Right, she really went to the mat on the whole insurance card thing. Truth to power and all that.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:20 pm
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen:
But she’s out there, operating on her own, without a shred of human decency.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:24 pm
@Trilln451: I’m not sure when her hard copy expired but it seems likely the guard on duty previously ignored the rules. It doesn’t mean that it will happen all the time.
It’s unfortunate that she was inconvenience but that could have been prevented. Technically she did not have proof of insurance with her.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:25 pm
This is the prime example of the political uselessness of protest people.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:26 pm
My name is Kate and i approve this message.
but i want to point out that what Julian Assange predicted is happening.
we are becoming a becoming a police state.
USA! USA!
TEAM AMERICA FUCK YEAH!
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:27 pm
@General Stuck:
Shit. Charging a person with driving without insurance out there is like giving out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:30 pm
@henqiguai:
Jane’s a very important blogger. She deserves special treatment.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:30 pm
@JPL:
To be fair, it does seem weird that instead of merely being turned away for lack of proof of insurance, she was detained and not allowed to leave…and had her car towed.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:31 pm
Last week, I got pulled over for driving 9 mph over the speed limit and the police officer let me off with a warning.
But get this, I got pulled over again for driving 9 mph over the speed limit and the pig gave me a ticket! Can you believe this? They gave me a ticket! Are we living in a police state now? I don’t think they knew who I was or they wouldn’t have dared.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:33 pm
@Zuzu’s Petals:
Clearly a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:37 pm
@Zuzu’s Petals: I don’t know. Maybe it was standard procedure or maybe it was harassment. I really don’t know. When I first read John’s statement They are now towing her car because they refuse to accept her proof of insurance. I was pretty appalled but now it appears that she didn’t have her proof of insurance with her.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:37 pm
Once upon a time, back in 1994, when I was Active Duty Navy…
Some friends and I were coming back from a Grateful Dead show at RFK Stadium. We were in my buddy’s hippy-stickered pick-up truck. he made a wrong turn, and was frustrated with DC’s roads. I told him to just turn around, but, instead, he turned into Ft. Meyers, left the truck in neutral, and jumped out—telling me to hop in a drive… the truck was rolling toward the main gates…
The MPs went NUTS—stormed out, and ultimately held us at gunpoint while they searched the truck. Detained us for several hours. Even with my Military ID on hand, we were all detained. We were thoroughly searched (nothing on us or in the truck).
Moral of the story—don’t fuck with Military Security. They have their own regs, and once in their domain, your only recourse is to STFU and co-operate and get through the process. Scary, but that is the process.
I guarantee you that Jane is going to SUPER-hype her Martyrdom story in an effort to boost her readership.
—mf
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:38 pm
@JPL:
Jane lied. Imagine that.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:46 pm
@matoko_chan: I was raised by people who predicted the coming of the police state (to the point that they took survival courses so they could hide out in the woods during the coming attempt to Purge the Black People).
The U.S. is really fucking slow.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:51 pm
@JPL: There’s a pretty big difference between the two, i think. If it’s true that she was asked for a paper proof of insurance before, then it was probably foolish that she didn’t find her proof of insurance as soon as she got home that time and immediately put it in her card.
Edit: in case it’s not clear, I was agreeing with you on the distinction.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:51 pm
@Monkeyfister (#262):
DC is laid out in a perfectly rational Cartesian-like square grid; except for parts of SE. If you get confused in the streets of DC for more than 5 minutes you been, minimally, drinking too much. And Ft. Myer is in Virginia (Arlington); whole different thing with regards to the street layout (f*ckin’ Colonials, couldn’t follow a simple layout plan). What ?
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:52 pm
If you can’t give her props for having the balls and the conviction to face off the man in this way then you are small. Quite small. Especially anonymous types.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:54 pm
Wow, I got ticked once for not having proof of insurance in my car on the public streets of Scottsdale, AZ, and I never realized that I was being harrassed by the authorities. I was insured, but I had forgotten to place the updated insurance card in my glove box.
From time to time, I have also visited Ft. Huachuca here in Arizona on business. Before you can enter the base with a car, you need to get a vehicle permit from a guard station at the gate. They require a driver’s license, registration, and proof of insurance. I’ve always been careful to make sure I’ve had all the right paperwork, and I’d consider it my mistake if I showed up without it. I’m also careful to make sure that I leave the base before my vehicle pass has expired.
I am well aware that law enforcement personnel can abuse their authority and make life difficult for law-abiding citizens if they choose. I’m also aware that there are many people who break the rules and then blame others for their mistakes, making it more difficult for police and others to enforce the law.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:55 pm
If Woody had gone right to the police, this would never had happened.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:55 pm
@scot:
What’s brave about this? There’s no point being made except that she’s a liar and a dumbass. She’s accomplishing nothing.
But she sure did stand up to THE MAN.
Hippie protest politics at its finest – all sound and fury, changing nothing.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:57 pm
@scot:
Ah, come on, you’re just BEGGING for people to make fun of you.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:58 pm
Let’s all sing: “I’m proud to be an American, where at least I know I’m free . . .”
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:02 pm
@henqiguai:
The state streets do fuck things up.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:04 pm
@lol:
Oh, I don’t know. Maybe if Jane showed up in a Pink Tutu and poured mock blood on the guard post she would have been let into the base.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:07 pm
@joe from Lowell: Actually, Joe, you’re being pretty stupid here.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:18 pm
@scot:
You forgot the CAPS The MAN
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:18 pm
@henqiguai: Livened up with circles, diagonals, inexplicable dead ends and sudden name changes. That’s before we get to the whole the lanes go this way during these hours and the other way during the other hours thing.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:26 pm
@numbskull: Actually, Joe, you’re being pretty stupid here.
Not earth-shaking news, but nice to see respeck for da troof!
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:27 pm
matoko_chan: we are becoming a becoming a police state.
Echoing what you said to me once: you’re just now getting this?!
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:33 pm
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen: the attempt to Purge the Black People is still ongoing. Its called conservatism.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:35 pm
@calipygian:
I see. And is there any data to back up your personal guarantee? Further could you personally guarantee that everybody gets asked? And then produce some data on that?
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:35 pm
@Laura: YOU STUPID FUCKING COW!
Manning doesnt get visitors you assclown.
what do you not understand about SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.
fuck off and DIAF.
@Stillwater: again, i am validating Assanges prediction for the balloon juice cudlip segment.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:39 pm
@henqiguai:
No, what I described is abuse of authority. Malicious compliance is following an organization’s procedures with intent to damage the organization.
No set of rules can produce perfect behavior. We create rules with the expectation that those applying them will use good sense in executing them. That includes honoring the purpose for which we created the rules.
There is no real reason that Hamisher’s car should have been towed. At the very best, which is still implausible to me, they were fairly enforcing stupid rules. But I think it’s more likely they were unfairly enforcing reasonable rules, either out of personal or institutional animosity.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:43 pm
Been through the gates of dozens of bases (all branches of military) and have on occasion forgotten the proper paperwork (expired insurance, driving another’s car without the sticker, even had an expired ID once). I have never had my car towed. On the rare occasion this has happened (most recently at a base that has ramped up security due to anti-war protests) they just stop traffic going both ways and make me drive my car around the gate and out the exit drive. If they were truly concerned about me they could deploy the physical barriers to block the roads. Not having been on Quantico for 10 years, I don’t know if they have such barriers but I would be surprised if they didn’t. They aren’t so concerned about my driving without the physical proof of insurance elsewhere, they just don’t want me on their base. So hearing that the car would be towed makes me wonder.
Also, it seems as if ultimately the car wasn’t towed, the driver just wanted $ for his time there. But it is a little unclear from the tweets and the statement doesn’t mention it.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:43 pm
@300baud: Obviously you haven’t been through too many gates at military bases.
Im just sayin’, if Im driving on base I make sure my t’s are crossed and I’s dotted. I’m not surprised by anything a gate guard may do to me if I don’t, up to and including being held at gunpoint.
But that is the cynic in me.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:45 pm
@Laura:
True, but that still doesn’t excuse what happens to this particular person.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:48 pm
@Ija:
I’m missing the problem here. She was told not to bring packages and she brought a package. She was supposed to bring proof of insurance and she didn’t.
And what her fans are saying is that she should be allowed to break the rules because SHUT UP THAT’S WHY POLICE STATE POLICE STATE
Also laughing at her retweet of someone suggesting she call the cops. I wasn’t aware local police had jurisdiction over military bases.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:53 pm
@Ija: True, but that still doesn’t excuse what happens to this particular person.
And it doesn’t excuse why military bases receive such reverence for procedures and protocols. I mean, the fucking military works for us, amirite?
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:55 pm
@lol
Hippies changed a lot of shit. They are the normal people.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:56 pm
@Ija: Sure it does, in some people’s minds, because she’s a bad person and dared criticize the President.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:57 pm
@Stillwater:
The fact that I can’t go on a military base and access any computer I want is just proof that Obama’s committment to transparency is a joke and that we’re on the road to a military dictatorship.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:57 pm
@lol: Read Bumper @284 to understand why the application of procedural guidelines is always subject to inquiry and politicization.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:02 pm
@scot:
Hippies never changed anything.
Vietnam war protests didn’t stop the war, the body count did.
Hippies didn’t get the civil rights act passed, organizers in the black community did.
The right-wing learned that lesson decades ago. They’ve opted for incremental changes. Anti-abortion protesters outside of clinics have accomplished jackshit but organizers in church communities and think tanks and the like have take the pragmatic route and slowly been able to choke off access to abortion. It’s not illegal but for most women it might as well be.
Protests and petitions have never done anything except make the participants feel full of themselves. Organizers change the world. And Hamsher, Kos, Greenwald, et al have always looked down on organizers.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:02 pm
@calipygian:
This kind of thinking, frankly, nauseates me.
The notion that people who fail to follow prudent behavior X deserve what they get? That can have some modest application when dealing with nature. If somebody gets hit by lightening while standing at the top of a mountain during a thunderstorm, maybe they in some sense deserved what they got.
It is entirely invalid when it comes to actions by other people, though. An abuse of authority is not justified by some imperfection on the part of the person abused. The logic that Hamsher deserved to have her car towed because of who she was visiting or because of how she behaved is the same logic that people use when saying, “Well with a skirt that short, she deserved what she got.”
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:03 pm
@jpe:
And not to you personally. I just got here, and there is a tremendous amount of stupid bullshit on this thread. This is more directed towards the general stupidity.
There’s that huge sign at the entry of the military base that says that entry onto the base constitutes consent to search, and siezure of contraband (a list of which will be provided.)
Just try driving and talking on a cell phone without a hands-free device.
You do not have an unfettered right to enter a military base.
The Base Commander’s first responsibility is the safety and security of government personnel and their dependents, and government property. The Base Commander’s second responsibility is to maintain good order and discipline.
Once a person, any person, enters a military base, that person gets to submit to any and all manner of inspection, instruction, and guidance. Failure to submit is not tolerated.
You don’t have a right to operate a motor vehicle on a military base. Fuck around and see your vehicle get towed to the gate.
You don’t have a right to speak to ANYONE with disrespect or a threatening tone. Fuck around and get cited and go see the federal magistrate in a couple of weeks.
Colonels have their careers ended because their wives were abusive to a gate guard. Retirees have their on-base privileges and parking stickers revoked for stupid shit. Active duty personnel get their driving privileges on base revoked too. How are you supposed to get to the unit in time for PT if you live off base? That’s your problem. Do you think for one minute they’re going to stand around and just take some stupid shit from somebody they’ve never heard of.
She can go explain whatever happened to the federal magistrate if she got cited, and she can complain to the Base Commander’s office whether she did or not.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:05 pm
@soonergrunt: Thank you, soonergrunt.
Couldn’t have said it better. But, Quantico is a bit of a special case. I’m not sure which side of I-95 the detention facility is on, but the side east of I-95 is pretty open because the base surrounds Quantico town. It is pretty much an open base, which tells me that you have to do something really stupid to get this kind of treatment, such as not have your proof of insurance or mouth off to the guard (who in this case appears to have been a gunny, or he was captain of the guard or something). Have your insurance in order and not say anything as you drive through the gate, they really don’t have any reason to stop you since you might be going into Quantico town for a burger or a high and tight. Makes me wonder what the real story is.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:08 pm
@soonergrunt:
I bet you money Hamsher tried to pull a “DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?” with the guards after they wouldn’t take her iNsurance card.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:12 pm
@MikeJ (#273):
Nuh uh ! Those are avenues and they run diagonal. In theory.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:13 pm
After rereading the tweets, it looks like they were asked to sign the package statement after they were already there with the package, so it doesn’t seem like there was a preplanned attempt to violate the rules. (The tweet is after the first comment about SS numbers.
She also acknowledges that they have the right to keep her out, but she wonders why they aren’t allowed to leave. This happens after Gunny writes her the insurance citation. So it doesn’t seem like she was trying to force her way on base.
Statement about the threat of arrest suggests that maybe she was getting a little verbal with them, but this is understandable. Doesn’t sound like they actually followed through with arrest though.
I don’t have a dog in this fight; don’t read much FDL except TBogg, but it seems like there is a lot of misunderstanding or misreading of what happened…and I may be doing that too.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:41 pm
@matoko_chan:
Hi friend. You seem to be ignorant of this fact: David House has visited Bradley. That was the purpose of this trip to Quantico, to see Bradley again (and deliver a petition). So yes, Manning does get visitors.
You continue to have a blessed and happy day!
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:45 pm
@calipygian: I’ve never been to Quantico. I don’t know anything about the layout of the base. I do know that many bases have major highways running through them, and one can pull off the highway and drive down a country road and be on the installation the whole time until you get to the town.
Fort Benning, and Fort Stewart, both in Georgia are like this. You could be cruising down a state highway, round a corner and drive past an artillery cannon doing a live fire. Scare the living shit out of you if you miss the temporary signs and drive past when that 155mm round fires. But even then, in the ass end of nowhere out back of the maneuver area, there’s posts along the road with signs that say U.S. MILITARY INSTALLATION or PROPERTY U.S. GOVERNMENT on them.
Fucking around and acting the ass on a military base has been pretty illegal since the McCarran Internal Security Act in 1950.
I’ll add to this, that several birthers learned this to their own sorrow, when they attended and attempted to disrupt the Court Martial of LTC Terry Lakin last month on an Army base in the Washington area.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:48 pm
@soonergrunt:
Not just any army base…Fort fucking Meade! ROTFLMAO! Which, shockingly enough, was a completely open base with no checks at all (except in the immediate vicinity of the Vortex of Doom) until 9/11.
January 23rd, 2011 at 8:03 pm
This is actually a real, non-rhetorical question. There seems to be a lot of people who believe that Hamsher is a little loose with reality and the truth. Can someone help me out as to what they are all talking about? I don’t read FDL except to get through to Tbogg and I don’t know what people are referring to.
January 23rd, 2011 at 8:07 pm
Wow, it’s not just Cole who’s cranky today! I’ve only been reading this blog regularly for a few months, but this is the crankiest thread I’ve seen here yet. Name-calling and personal insults do not make your case in a discussion.
Maybe people are mad about the Packers running all over the Bears.
January 23rd, 2011 at 8:22 pm
@scot:
How exactly is she “facing off the man?”
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:11 pm
Well, maybe she’ll get a whole lot of publicity for the dude. Martyrdom via Jane of Snark.
crickets chirping
Yeah, pretty lame. And I probably didn’t even come up with it first.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:13 pm
AP has an article up http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin.....tml?ref=us
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:13 pm
@quickly: She is a good source of disinformation. A recent example: her baldfaced assertion on O’Donnell’s show that the Estate Tax rate that came out of the tax cut compromise was actually lower than what it was before. Yes, lower than zero. Thankfully, O’Donnell and Ezra Klein quickly called her on it, at which point she smarmily shifted tactics and started wondering aloud where exactly the estate tax compromise had come from, claiming that nobody had even been talking about it ahead of time…until Ezra informed her directly, and gave her in detail what had been gotten in exchange for it.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:13 pm
@quickly:
One of many examples of Jane’s lies:
Several months ago she had written several blogs naming Obama’s 2008 deputy campaign manager as his finance director and said he was warning donors not to give money to organizations who supported Clinton in the primary. I interview Steve. He said he does not know, Jane has never met her, never worked in finance and never directed any donor to do anything with their donations because it’s not in his job description. And said Jane was pathetic.
And another example, there is a Congresswoman (blue dog) in one of the Dakotas. The president made a speech about voting against the health care bill and Jane went on a tear saying Obama threatened the congresswoman. When really he was just speaking in general terms about people worried about being re-elected than doing what’s right.
Last one, not really a lie, just an example of her idiocy. She said (on TV) the WH did not want to repeal DADT and had no desire to do so, it would never be repealed. Next week, DADT was repealed with help from the WH and OFA.
I’m sure people could provide you with more proof, but I don’t read FDL.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:19 pm
@joe from Lowell: As it turns out, the US is one of the world’s most egregious torturing nations.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:22 pm
from the NYT
2 Turned Away Trying to Visit WikiLeaks GI
Filed at 8:06 p.m. EST
QUANTICO, Va. (AP) — Two backers of a jailed Army private suspected of passing classified documents to the WikiLeaks website say their car was towed after they arrived at a Marine base to visit him.
David House and blogger Jane Hamsher say in a statement they had not had problems previously driving onto the Quantico base. But they say they were detained and unable to visit Army Pfc. Bradley Manning on Sunday.
Quantico spokesman Col. Thomas V. Johnson says the car was towed after the pair could not provide proof of insurance and guards found the vehicle’s license plates had expired. He says both weren’t detained.
Manning’s civilian attorney said Friday he has filed a complaint over Manning’s treatment. The former intelligence analyst in Iraq is being held while the Army determines whether he’ll be tried.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:23 pm
@NoFortunateSon: Manning is a symbol to them and to us. Look what they can do to him and no one can stop it. Thin what they can do to you.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:29 pm
@mikefromArlington: He is being tortured and hasn’t been convicted of anything. But then those in power say he is guilty so that is enough.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:33 pm
Well, if it is true that Jane Hamsher’s license plates had expired, then she doesn’t have much basis for her complaint. Driving a car with expired tags will get you a heavy fine in many states and there are many locales where they will tow your car.
If she wanted to provide the base commander with a petition protesting the treatment of Pfc. Manning, it seems like a Sunday afternoon is not the opportune time to do it. It appears, though, that Manning’s attorney his working through standard channels in an effort to get Manning’s confinement changed from maximum to medium security, or to at least have fewer restrictions.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:43 pm
I’ve read through about half the posts here and the attitude of most of the posters is appalling. “Maybe she did this, maybe she did that. She should have gone some other day, she shouldn’t have brought a petition. She might have had a camera. She might have sassed a guard. In some way it has got to be her fault because, we just hate her. So there.”
I started a new bookmark subheading called Fake Progressives, and Balloon Juice is there I now realize not because of John, but because of the reactionaries who in large amount comment here.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:46 pm
@lawguy: Go ahead. Sass a guard at a gate. I dare ya. I double dog dare ya.
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:02 pm
@calipygian:
One through nine, no maybes, no supposes, no fractions. You can’t travel on a Marine base, you can’t go onto a base, you know, without, like, you know, uh, without an insurance card, okay? What are you going to show them – a library card, a Sam’s Club card? What are you going to do when you go from here to Quantico or something? That’s dialectic physics.
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:03 pm
@magurakurin: LMAO!
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:08 pm
I am going to bookmark this thread also too, for the sake of posterity and laughs.
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:27 pm
Well, I’ve been aghast at the incident all day until the “expired tags” part came to light. I thought driving up to a military base with no insurance card was pretty stupid, although I was still on Manning’s side (and hence on his visitors).
But expired tags? How do you not see that about to happen? Now I’ve got this evil idea of Jane playing chicken with Manning’s last outside visitor so she can highlight the petition she was delivering. Oh, I do hope that’s not the case here.
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:30 pm
@kdaug:
Also, I’m not too sure about the whole argument that if they had known she was ‘somebody’ then they should have treated her more politely or whatever. That seems to imply that regular people who are not ‘somebody’ should get treated in any which manner, while the more important folks get treated specially.
How is that any different from believing that the military shouldn’t be questioned, or military rules should be different from civilian rules.
In conclusion, I would rather wait to hear the whole story.
ETA Look, I know this won’t be a popular opinion, but really, the guy leaked classified documents en masse. What do you really expect the government to do, smack him on the wrist? I can understand denouncing the severity of his treatment, but still, Americans can’t expect him to just get off lightly.
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:31 pm
@lawguy: Oh, fuck off, you fake.
I didn’t take that kind of attitude from posers in the 60s, I won’t tolerate it now.
You don’t confront the establishment by being a screw up; you get your ducks in a row and your shit together.
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:34 pm
@elle: And he won’t. He’s as much as admitted his guilt already, some would argue too much. Now he’ll get put in front of twelve officers and then most likely spend the rest of his life in prison. The part that doesn’t make sense for me is how Manning got from new soldier to infamous leaker. There are parts of the puzzle that aren’t filled in.
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:36 pm
@quickly: I don’t know if she is or not. For all I know, pretty much everything she said/tweeted went down exactly as she says.
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:37 pm
If you’re a real progressive, you work on getting him released and the punishment mitigated. Using the power of moral force doesn’t mean excusing the infractions—-civil disobedience doesn’t mean an immediate get out of jail free card. It means making such a strong moral case that your persuade the other side of the justice of your case.
Being right doesn’t mean you get to act sloppy.
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:42 pm
@gwangung:
definitely. I don’t what the fuck happened in Quantico, but if they went down there in a car with expired tags, they are stupid regardless of any claims to the righteousness of their cause.
I had a friend years back who eventually went full on criminal. In his early training he did some pot running and his elders in crime told him in very plain terms pay all parking tickets promptly, keep everything for the car( insurance, tags, DL, etc.) totally up to date, never speed, signal every turn and if you do get stopped be as respectful as if you were talking to the Pope.
If you are starting from the assumption that the government has become a police state, why would you make it even easier for them to stop you? Know the rules, know the laws, know your rights. That’s activism 101 isn’t it?
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:46 pm
@gwangung:
Certainly. In the meantime however, the government has a responsibility to punish the crime and deter such future actions.
January 23rd, 2011 at 10:46 pm
“Quantico spokesman Col. Thomas V. Johnson says the car was towed after the pair could not provide proof of insurance and guards found the vehicle’s license plates had expired.”
That’s REALLY sticking it to THE MAN.
January 23rd, 2011 at 11:23 pm
@Admiral_Komack: Yeah. THE MAN really took it up the ass on that one.
It’s the old “do something really fucking stupid, get predictable results” trick.
January 23rd, 2011 at 11:25 pm
@lawguy: Haha, OK then. You go ahead and do that. Will you write catty MySpace comments about us while you’re at it?
January 23rd, 2011 at 11:35 pm
@magurakurin:
Yup. You skip the basics, you get pwned, you screw your cause over.
@elle:
Yeah, well folks should be careful on what they should do and what the government does….
January 23rd, 2011 at 11:38 pm
Personally, I wouldn’t take it as read that her plates were expired. Maybe they were, or maybe this is some dust being kicked up by a bureaucracy that found itself on the wrong end of a PR incident.
I will stipulate that if she is driving with expired plates then she’s an idiot. Even if she’s not driving onto a military base.
January 23rd, 2011 at 11:54 pm
Let’s see…
– Instead of bringing, say, Manning’s family, Jesse Jackson, or a horde of protestors, all Jane brings is herself and a good friend of Manning. – Brings a package of petitions despite being told no packages – Drives up with expired plates and no proof of insurance
Hmm. Now this could all be just well and innocent, but this doesn’t sound like good activism at all. In fact, well, as the song goes, this is one of those things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
January 24th, 2011 at 12:14 am
Here’s the thing: if Jane had told the truth, including, “Oh, jeez, my tags expired, now they’re making a big deal of it,” I would buy this. But she left that part out, and just talked about insurance.
Does that mean the whole story’s bunk? No. But it means that the whole story has been called into question by this omission. And it now has to be viewed skeptically.
Which sucks. If you actually think Manning’s been treated poorly as I do, you’d like this story to have legs even if Hamsher’s Hamsher. But by publicizing herself without getting the details right, she’s screwed it up and made it about her. Again.
January 24th, 2011 at 12:38 am
@Jeff Fecke:
And I suppose this is just an unfortunate accident.
January 24th, 2011 at 12:45 am
Hey, here’s an idea. I’m going to visit a military base while carrying my collection of broken clocks and random colored wires in the trunk. Also, I forgot to mention, I don’t have a drivers’ license but I do have a season pass to Six Flags, and that has my picture on it, so, totally cool. This should go really smoothly…
January 24th, 2011 at 1:20 am
Is John going to continue to step in to white knight for Jane now that she’s demonstrated she lied about nearly everything?
January 24th, 2011 at 1:32 am
@Jeff Fecke:
I blame Obama.
Sure, he’s the leader of the free world and all, but couldn’t he have simply taken the time to make sure that Jane Hamsher has her car insurance paid and her license tags current?
He should have called the GEICO gekco on Jane’s behalf; it just would have taken fifteen minutes…
January 24th, 2011 at 1:37 am
@Admiral_Komack: Hee. The unintentional(?) allusion amuses me…
(Adm. Komack…Star Trek character played by the same actor who FIRST made the catch phrase “You’re in Good Hands with AllState” famous…All State an insurance agency…)
(On second thought, this was way too obscure and injokey, so I’ll withdraw the witicism…)
January 24th, 2011 at 2:15 am
@Jeff Fecke: I don’t know if Jane makes it all about her (although I have my suspicions), but a lot of her defenders have equated the cause with her, so that anybody who criticizes her is, in their minds, criticizing the cause.
Which provokes me to dredge up an old 60s aphorism passed around all the old activists, “No one is above correction or self reflection.”
January 24th, 2011 at 2:18 am
@gwangung:
“No, this is NOT off the record!”
;-)
January 24th, 2011 at 8:36 am
@elle: NO. Until verdict is rendered, “the government has a responsibility to punish the crime,” is WRONG. It has to prevent that defendant from committing any crimes, and completely aside from this instance has to deter OTHERS from committing the alleged crimes.
What conditions may be imposed to prevent the defendant from committing other crimes is exactly what is in question here. Is it necessary to withold human contact? Is it necessary to force him to sleep with no blankets or clothing in a lighted room? Etc.
Those are totally germane questions.
January 24th, 2011 at 8:43 am
@gwangung:
With thinking like that, you’ll be called an Obot in no time.
January 24th, 2011 at 8:45 am
@Annelid Gustator: Careful now. You’re using that ‘reasonable thinking’ trick. You’re going to find yourself in the wrong folder in Lawguy’s favorites.
Jane Hamsher will stub her toe on the sidewalk and then tweet about how you assaulted her, and John Cole will demand you buy a foam finger.
January 24th, 2011 at 9:19 am
Very entertaining thread. I didn’t like Jane or FDL before. But today I read her twitter stream as a result of this article, and I was a little appalled. Ultimately, I got to the NY Times short article about it, re-checked her tweets to see that she never, ever mentioned the one thing that made their actions look very reasonable—even required.
It’s a shame. Bradley Manning’s detention and current treatment is very serious. In contrast, Jane’s a ninny who has attracted no useful PR to his cause.
matoko_chan – please calm the fuck down, and don’t openly wish for other people to die painfully due to their having different opinions than you. thanks.
January 24th, 2011 at 9:59 am
@mikefromArlington: “Don’t know if you’ve been on Marine bases b4 but when they give you an instruction they are doing so under orders and they are conditioned to not stray from orders in the slightest. ”
In which case a huge proportion of the journalists who come on base would be detained for not following orders due to stupidity, and most the rest would be detained for not following orders due to arrogance.
January 24th, 2011 at 10:06 am
wow, so i guess taking as gospel the tweetdeck of a low-level blogger with a bad relationship with facts, a huge martyrdom complex and an even bigger sense of entitlement turned out not to be such a great idea.
hoocoodanode.
January 24th, 2011 at 10:06 am
@Barry: Journalists have this office that caters to and handles them, called Public Affairs. Those are the guys who can get a reporter in to see the General, the guys who will coordinate a bleacher seat for the next big CALFEX (lots of shit blowing up) and so on. Journalists also tend to be smart enough to wear their PRESS ID in a conspicuous manner.
January 24th, 2011 at 10:35 am