Please tell me this report is wrong:
But then Interpol launched its manhunt, rendering Assange a cross-border fugitive. So it seemed the “sex crimes” might be more serious than initially thought.
But what are they?
They’re not “rape,” everyone agrees (at least as of a few days ago)–because the sex was consensual. They also aren’t unspecified “molestation.”
What they appear to be is a violation of a Swedish law against “having sex without a condom.”
Interestingly, even that charge doesn’t appear to precisely apply in this case.
A condom was apparently used–initially. But it broke. So the dispute is about whether it broke “accidentally” (he said) or it broke “on purpose” (she said).
That DEFINITELY sounds like a job for Interpol.
That can’t be what he is charged with, can it?
(via)
Seebach
Apparently, it’s actually rape, and this is just Assange’s attorneys muddying the waters.
The guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/07/rape-claims-julian-assange
I’m sympathetic to Wikileaks, but it’s hard to say whether this is made up or a real thing.
Also from the guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/dec/07/wikileaks-us-embassy-cables-live-updates
JGabriel
John Cole:
Apparently yes. I read the same thing a day or two ago at a different site.
It’s looking more and more obviously trumped up with each passing day.
.
Cris
Holy fuckin’ shit, Steve Martin FTW
D-Chance.
Just let this be a lesson to other truth-seekers of this government… Obama’s or otherwise. They can and WILL make you disappear at their pleasure.
Strandedvandal
Why are there so many on the left defending this son of a bitch? He has obtained stolen Government material and knowingly disseminated them. What is there to defend?
mistermix
Here’s the best report I’ve read so far:
http://www.reuters.com/assets/print?aid=USTRE6B669H20101207
gil mann
This is about a broken condom? And he’s the founder of WikiLeaks?
Come on, world, gimme something a little less obvious to work with, wouldja? I’m trying to feign wit over here.
Yuppers
Oh, you wild and crazy guy…
Svensker
And one of the women involved may have ties to the CIA and the U.S. activities in Cuba.
So, yeah, this is what they’re getting him on. But they got Capone on tax evasion, so waddyagonnado?
freelancer
Ahh, Ye olde Scandinavian breakaway trojan prank foiled yet again!
ETA: If he’s guilty of rape, fuck him. But there’s a big distinction between the two.
Karen in GA
@Cris: Beat me to it.
Zifnab
The charge is basically that the woman consented to sex on the condition that he use a condom. The condom allegedly broke, and which point the woman told Assange to stop having sex with her and he refused. At that point, it became rape.
Which is serious business, and I don’t think anyone can deny that. But the entire case is basically here-say. Unless he decided to video tape the sex and post it on YouTube, I don’t know how it’s going to survive a trial.
soonergrunt
No, it isn’t.
From Wired’s Threat Level blog:
Now, I’m the first (and it would seem only) one to admit that I’m not objective where this subject and guy is considered, but I think you can call “using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner” to be physical coercion or sexual assault, and ” having sex with a second woman … while she was asleep” would be fairly considered to be sexual assault or even rape.
I don’t know if the guy is guilty or not, but unlike most of you, I think he should have to face his accuser in court.
beltane
I’ve been following this on the Guardian’s website all day. It looks like Assange is being held on this charge until they can come up with something to charge him with in the US because freedom isn’t free and all that.
Seebach
@Strandedvandal: Is the stolen government material boring stuff that everyone already knew, or a deadly threat to world security? Please to be making up your mind.
Svensker
@Strandedvandal:
Perhaps some of us think that the government shouldn’t be producing and hiding all this stuff. And that it’s time for the National Security State to get a bit smaller.
I liked this op-ed in the Orange County Register — Wikileaks No Threat To A Free Society. Course it is a threat to the Empire. Which is snarling and lashing its tail, cheered on by patriots like yourself.
dr. bloor
@Zifnab:
They don’t have to convict him of anything, nor do they likely care. They’re probably just looking to extradite him to us.
Seebach
@soonergrunt: I support wikileaks 99%, but also think he should have to face his accuser in court.
I just don’t think he should be disappeared and have made up charges fabricated so that Lieberman can fulfill his power fantasies. Can the US promise me that?
Cris
@Karen in GA: But Yuppers did it better. (Pop culture shout-outs deserve in-kind responses.)
numbskull
Paging Scott Ritter! Paging Scott Ritter!
Jay B.
@Strandedvandal:
The government is a lying, scheming, secrecy-obsessed, sometimes-criminal organization and some of us still believe in the hilariously stupid, quaint notion that an informed electorate makes better decisions about democracy than cabals whose motives are sometimes less than noble?
But sure, demand less information! Rally ’round daddy and the flag. The good ol’ USA will never do anything untoward in your name.
Pigeon.
Alex S.
@Strandedvandal:
At some other time and at some other place, people might call it journalism. He didn’t steal them.
Shade Tail
@Strandedvandal:
We’re defending him because:
1) The government works for *us* and we have the right to know at least the broad outline of its activities.
2) Absolutely none of those “stolen” documents were classified.
3) Our criminal justice system is based on the idea that people are innocent until proven guilty. That “son of a bitch” hasn’t been proven guilty of anything.
That is why we are goddamned defending him. You got a problem with that?
numbskull
@Strandedvandal: Who are you? Dumbfuck from Dumbfuckistan?
What the fuck does “Government” mean to you, specifically in reference to the United States of America?
Goddam people are stupid sometimes.
soonergrunt
@Seebach:
I don’t think that should happen either. I also see no evidence of such occurring as of yet.
You know, I’m probably the one guy around here who looks at most rape accusations and tends to think they’re bullshit. I have my reasons, as you may or may not know, but that doesn’t mean that I think that we short-circuit the system just because the subject is a famous hero to some people.
Zifnab
@Seebach:
They said the same thing about Clinton and Jennifer Flowers. I’m sure he’ll be accused of a land deal gone bad, the suicide of a business partner, and misuse of his cat’s Christmas Card list before the year is out.
me
He hasn’t been charged with anything. They want him in Sweden for questioning.
Strandedvandal
@Svensker:
You may think that, but you do not have the right to act on it. If you do, than you face the consequences my friend. And what the hell is with the lashing out at me? I asked a simple goddam question. Now I am the f*cking enemy? You all have lost your sh*t for real.
Seebach
@soonergrunt: Well, considering that Mukasey has said that’s what he would do, and that Holder is trying to put together a case, I’d suspect it will happen.
Unless Assange becomes so immediately depressed he kills himself in the holding cell.
soonergrunt
@Strandedvandal: What he did with Wikileaks is utterly irrelevant to the charges against him in Sweden.
ColleenSTL
@soonergrunt: I totally agree. We need to separate Assange as a person from the Wikileaks saga. He may or may not be guilty of rape; that remains to be seen. Perhaps he’s an international Rothlisberger.
But the timing of all of this in the midst of the chorus to try a non-US-Citizen for espionage against the US for publishing confirmation of a lot of things anyone paying attention already knew demands a certain skepticism.
inkadu
I can see the headline now:
Assange, Guilty of Dissemination, Prosecuted for Insemination
Seebach
@Strandedvandal: Assange is arrested, the Pfc who leaked the papers in solitary. Seems to me the only people who haven’t “faced justice” are the war criminals the US government is doing everything in its power to protect.
Remember them?
freelancer
United States Soldiers are incapable of rape. Everybody knows this.
Bill E Pilgrim
I don’t know, but this guy couldn’t be more of a candidate to enrage the Fighting Keyboardists if he were designed in a lab expressly for that purpose, I swear.
Having sex with multiple Swedish women, on top of everything else, it’s a complete insult to their egos on every level imaginable.
Linda Featheringill
@Strandedvandal:
“Why are there so many on the left defending this son of a bitch? He has obtained stolen Government materials and knowingly disseminated them.”
Because he obtained stolen Government materials and knowingly disseminated them.
You know, of the people, by the people, and for the people?
Seebach
1. Assange turned himself in, something the war criminals of the previous administration have not.
2. Obama is responsible for more civilian and military deaths than Assange.
Is this in dispute?
inkadu
@Shade Tail: Not to interrupt your curbstoming, but Wikileaks itself says some of the documents are classified.
The cables, which date from 1966 up until the end of February this year, contain confidential communications between 274 embassies in countries throughout the world and the State Department in Washington DC. 15,652 of the cables are classified Secret.
soonergrunt
@Shade Tail:
That would be extremely wrong. While most of the current documents not classified, quite a few of them, for example yesterday’s release of the documents naming organizations, companies, and facilities that the US considers to be critical infrastructure was full of documents that were classified to the Secret level. Mixed in with all the gossip and speculation and all the other stuff diplomats do, were real actual pieces of classified information on actual, important secrets.
Peter J
If he was just an regular guy, what he’s charged with would not have lead to a red notice being issued.
The British are refusing him bail since they argue that he might flee, he stayed in Sweden until he was permitted to leave, he didn’t not flee.
Also, his lawyer has been denied access until 24 hours before the extradition hearing.
soonergrunt
@Seebach: I don’t debate either of those facts.
I also never had a chance to vote for or against Julian Assange for President of the United States.
All of which is irrelevant to the question of whether or not he committed crimes in Sweden.
Keith G
@Strandedvandal:
Speaking for myself, I am not defending him and I find some of his view odious. Nonetheless The American security state thrives on keeping too many secrets. I like that he has lifted the veil just a bit. We are a big strong state and there is not much that Assange could do that would made a difference in our trajectory through history
Manning broke the law US law and his being punished. Assange probably did not break US law. Can we punish him for being an asshole? There are others that I would want ahead of him in that line.
It does give me a grin to see that there are senators that suddenly love international law and want to punish sexual offenders…I guess as long as they are not sitting senators.
soonergrunt
@Seebach:
Who gives a rat’s ass what Michael Mukasey would do?
The edit function seems to have shit the bed this evening.
Strandedvandal
@numbskull:Fuck you. No, really. I mean that in the most sincerest of terms.
Lisa
LOL. This is some shit that even Stieg Larsson would have had a hard time dreaming up. Really?
I heard that this was a case of “sex by surprise” which is some fucked up rape statute in Sweden. I am thinking they were having a good time and suddenly he tried to move his weiner from pink to stink. Guys often try that shit – still….even THAT is a stretch to an Interpol-level crime. Huge argument ending in him getting kicked in the nads and thrown out of her apartment? Sure.
But condom breakage? What? Huh? Yes, he might be a dick who slips of the condom for some secret creampie action. I would kick his ass for that shit too. But Interpol? They could not come up with anything better than that? Like “We just want to get your ass in an orange jumpsuit and send you to the states, you troublesome fucker.”
zuzu (not that one, the other one)
A lot of what’s out there is based on some shitty Daily Fail reporting. See here for more details: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/12/07/julian_assange_rape_accuser_smeared/index.html
Sweden has a consent-based model of sexual assault, not just a violence-based one.
And you know, it’s entirely possible that Assange is doing something historically important with Wikileaks AND he’s sexually assaulted some women under Swedish law AND various governments are using what are fairly low-level charges to get him into custody in order to shut him up.
Ask Sally Hemings sometime if men who do historically important things are also capable of treating women carelessly.
zed
I’ll just link to Amanda Marcotte.
zed
I’ll just link to Amanda Marcotte.
shecky
@Strandedvandal:
Does that apply to any media that also received and disseminated the contents of the stolen materials? Is the NYT, etc also treasonous? I mean, the MSM is pointing us to all the juiciest info contained in the leaked documents for dog’s sakes
soonergrunt
@Peter J:
And how long have you worked for or with Interpol?
lacp
Well, sure he should face his accusers, but I’m not sure we could guarantee their security in Baghram or Guantanamo.
zed
@zed:
damn, link not showing? Bleh.
Strandedvandal
@soonergrunt: You and I both know that is not really true.
zuzu (not that one, the other one)
@Lisa: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/12/07/julian_assange_rape_accuser_smeared/index.html
Keith G
@Keith G: Wow. I attempted to edit and Word Press just looked back at me with contempt.
FYWP
Lisa
He might be a dick, but I find defending my right to have a secretive, opaque government that starts bogus wars and conducts diplomacy like some chick in “Mean Girls” to be more odious than defending Assange.
Jay B.
@Strandedvandal:
Because…What? “Classified” is sacrosanct? Because we question authority? Because some of us believe in informed consent?
We’re in two fucking wars because our government lied us into one and screamed us into another, they’ve tortured, maintained “black sites” for other countries to torture people, they’ve held backroom meetings with oil company executives to screw over everyone in the fucking world and your response to this is to whine about someone with the temerity to publish “classified material” (which, by the way, happens in newspapers all the time anyway. They usually call it “news”)?
And I’ve lost my shit? You’ve lost your sense of simple morality.
soonergrunt
@freelancer: You’re rather stupid, but you’re also an asshole, so you got that going for you, which is good.
You should try to have some clue what you’re on about. Reach for it if you have to, but I don’t recall ever suggesting that American Soldiers never commit rape. Please tell me where I said this.
If you don’t know why I tend to question rape accusations, you can ask me, or anyone who was around here a few months back during the Roethlisberger thing.
Or you can keep throwing stupid shit out there. Whatever.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@Jay B.: they screamed us into war?
hahahhahahahhaha
And here I thought it was terrorist hijackers.
Keith G
@soonergrunt:
Are we short-circuiting the system just because the subject is a famous twat to some people?
Tonal Crow
@D-Chance.: True. Which is why we’ve got to renounce forever (a) indefinite detention; (b) torture; (c) extrajudicial execution other than on an active battlefield; and (d) rendition for purposes of winking at torture, which is basically all of it.
Strandedvandal
The naivete of some of you is astounding. Do you REALLY want there to be no secrets in governments? REALLY? You REALLY want every other country knowing exactly what every other country is up. You think that is a good idea?
Some of you get all pissy about tax cuts for millionaires and yet, how much is it going to cost us to repair the damage done by this whole sorry event?
numbskull
@Strandedvandal: Still not gettin’, huh? You’re slowly dimming into the night.
Strandedvandal
@Jay B.: My heavens Miss Scarlet! Do you need a cool cloth? I do declare you have the most awful case of the vapors! You poor dear.
Peter J
@soonergrunt:
At least I know that Interpol doesn’t post red notices by themselves, they act on requests from countries.
But no, I don’t work for or with Interpol. But consider this:
1. Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe.
2. Sweden currently has eight red notices issued, Assange is the only one wanted for a regular sex crime.
If you believe that Assange is the only one who is accused of committing a sex crime and then leaving Sweden, then I got a bridge you might be interested in buying.
Strandedvandal
@numbskull: Your handle is stunningly accurate. yeah, I got it.
freelancer
@soonergrunt:
Lot of intercine bullshit out there today, so I threw my hat in and trolled you in the worst way possible. FWIW, I agree with you.
Everyone should take a breather, the last 10 days have been nuts.
numbskull
@Strandedvandal: Wow. I didn’t think it was possible. You ARE actually dumber than what I thought.
Yes, Yes! We all think there should be no secrets!! None whatsoever! That’s what we’re all arguing. That’s EXACTLY what everyone who is “defending” Assange has been saying (even if we’re not defending anyone about anything).
EGGSAKLY! You win! You win! You’ve shown us to be the simpleton binary beings of your dreams.
You stupid dumbshit.
Now please go find another blog where your brilliance will impress. Does Hannity have a blog?
AhabTRuler
What was he thinking? I mean, really who could think such a silly old thing as tha-hat?
Oscar Leroy
Sweet reference, John Cole.
John O
@Strandedvandal:
I am of the default setting that Assange is being railroaded. I also don’t see what his sex life has to do with his professional activities, and I like the idea of seeing what people REALLY think, as that is the root of actual progress IMO.
If it’s a “he said, she said” sexual dispute, I’m almost positive he’s being railroaded. QED and all.
Strandedvandal
@John O: I am pretty sure this is a sham, a pretext for nabbing the guy before someone else does.
Jay B.
@Mike Kay (Team America):
And that’s why you’re such a treasure. Where were the hijackers from? How’s that war going anyway? What were the objectives? How many of those hijackers were Taliban? Where’s that bin Laden fella these days? Of course there was no drumbeat to war. It was because of those Arabs who killed New Yorkers that we invaded a Pashtun country run by superstitious peasants.
@Strandedvandal:
Right. Don’t you have a boot to lick or something?
Strandedvandal
@numbskull: Seriously dumbass, shut the fuck up. You have no clue what the hell you are talking about.
John O
@Strandedvandal:
No one out here is arguing there should be no secrets. More like less than there are now. Especially when we’re pissing away billions on unwinnable wars while arguing about budget deficits and tax cuts.
Mike M
I really don’t care about Assange’s sex life and I think it just muddies up the discussion on WikiLeaks. I hope that he is treated fairly by Sweden’s legal system. No one should be tried on the web, including his accusers. Nevertheless, according to the Guardian story, the whole affair has turned very ugly for all involved.
Perhaps, as some suggest, the UK is holding him until they can figure out some reason to get him extradited to the US, but that doesn’t seem plausible to me or likely to succeed.
I know that the truth is often stranger than fiction, but surely the Swedes could have come up with a more cut and dry story if they wanted to trump up charges against Assange. Doesn’t anyone know how to plant illegal drugs on a suspect anymore? Maybe I watch too much TV, but it seems if the US government wanted him “disappeared” they could have accomplished the task long ago. Have we stopped kidknapping people? Is the CIA omnipresent, all powerful, and incompetent? I guess the Obama administration can’t do anything right.
Strandedvandal
@Jay B.: That’s right I happen to be a liberal who thinks it is important to protect national secrets. Who believes that people who break laws should be punished. Therefore, I must be a bootlicking nazi. You a gymnast?
Seebach
@soonergrunt: I didn’t get to vote on any of the Powers that Be on Wall Street. Also, I didn’t know Assange was president of the United States. Who’s this Obama guy, then?
mikefromArlington
Here’s how I see it. The U.S. is weighing their options along with anyone cooperating.
Having Assange off the street trumps the bad press of trumped up charges.
burnspbesq
@Seebach:
Why does that matter?
soonergrunt
@Keith G:
I don’t believe so. Perhaps you think that Sweden, a country that has pretty jealously guarded its’ neutrality since the end of World War II can just be persuaded to do whatever the CIA or whoever wants them to do.
I don’t. I could be wrong though. It’s happened before.
Ija
@John O:
Why? Because in a he-said she-said situation you always assume the woman is lying?
matoko_chan
@mikefromArlington:
but it doesnt.
it doesnt matter if Assange is in jail or even alive.
He has set a prototype closed information systems killer loose on the world wide web, and it is apparently Working As Intended, and it apparently cannot be turned off.
And if it works, it is the ELE of the modern security state.
Seebach
@burnspbesq: Because I want to understand why wikileaks is a bad thing, and the story isn’t being kept straight.
@soonergrunt: The fact that you believe the US doesn’t have a say in Sweden is why Wikileaks exists. I can’t wait for some Swedish cables to come out.
Ija
@Svensker:
Let’s wait and see what happens in court before smearing a possible rape victim, shall we?
Seebach
@matoko_chan: Seriously, I’m really supportive of Wikileaks, but if you keep up with the spamming, I’ll personally suicide Assange just to shut you the fuck up.
Say something new or go to hell.
burnspbesq
@Lisa:
You might wish to educate yourself on the subject of Swedish law regarding sex crimes, sweetie. If he did what he is alleged to have done, under Swedish law it’s rape.
John O
@Ija:
No, because the weight of coincidence would be overwhelming and disproportionate, and any woman worth her salt could be accused of the same behavior, if it’s a “well, first I liked the idea…” kind of thing.
So there. :-)
Peter J
@soonergrunt:
US embassy: ‘Sweden no longer neutral’
Wikileaks Cable Shows US Involvement in Swedish Anti-Piracy Efforts
Seebach
@Ija: So now “involved with the CIA” is a vicious character smear? Has the CIA’s reputation fallen so low as to now be an insult?
That said, I’d take that CIA rumor with a grain of salt until more proof arises.
mikefromArlington
@matoko_chan:
Whaaaa?
Lisa
@burnspbesq: I thought that is what I said. I heard that under Swedish law there is something called “sex by surprise” which I thought was trying something kinky without your partner’s consent. I found out that it was sneaking of the condom without their consent….which is douchy. But it still seems kind of wtf to have an international manhunt over it.
Anyway, thanks for the response “sweetie”. Why do people go from zero to asshole so quickly on the internets? Is it the mass consumption of cheetos and mountain dew?
burnspbesq
@Seebach:
That’s not unreasonable.
I misunderstood where you were going. I thought you were suggesting that thieves are only worth prosecuting if they steal cool stuff.
Paula
@zuzu (not that one, the other one):
Shocker. This is what happens when your national political discourse is stupidly two-dimensional.
I don’t care about Assange’s sex life, but then I don’t care about what passes for feminism among internet liberals either.
Fuck them and anyone using this logic to defend Assange. You CAN try to defend transparency without, you know, setting back the the movement against rape and domestic violence a decade.
danimal
Oh no, I’m concerned. If Cole’s referencing “Grandpa-bought-a-rubber,” how soon before we see on this very blog….CAT JUGGLING????
Reminder: Tunch will kill if he has to…
Rita R.
I see the “nuts and sluts” defense has been upped to “nuts and sluts and CIA stooges.”
Seebach
@burnspbesq: No problem. I just see two arguments:
1. OMG Assange should be hung because he’s destroying US credibility and leaking important secrets
at the same time as
2. Normally I support transparency, but Assange’s just leaking stuff of no importance. If there was anything explosive or illegal, I’d be for it. But this is just anarchy!
Which is it? They can’t be both explosive and meaningless documents.
burnspbesq
@Lisa:
There is no such concept in Swedish law. That’s a colloquial term for rape.
Re “sweetie:” on this blog, condescension toward the stupid is not only tolerated, it’s expected.
Peter J
@burnspbesq:
Sweetie, feel free to educate us.
John O
Nonsense. Of course it can be turned off, or at least seriously curtailed.
The question is is that what you want. I come down on the I don’t want that side.
(I LOVE the poison pill he’s either bluffing with or has. That’s right out of good fiction and stuff.)
Ija
@Seebach:
Oh come on. Of course it’s a smear. It’s implying that the woman is lying and bringing the accusation only because she is paid or ordered by the CIA.
Peter
@matoko_chan: You know, matoko, you remind me of myself when I was fourteen. Except I had better spelling.
And for the record, yes, I was both a complete moron and a complete jackass when I was fourteen.
wengler
@John O
Of course he’s being railroaded. He was charged, then the charges were rescinded, then he tried to meet with the Swedish prosecutor and was rebuffed. Then he moved to England and they pushed this big Interpol warrant for propaganda reasons.
Jay B.
@Strandedvandal:
What’s the matter, mary? Vapors?
Does it never, ever occur to you to that “national secrets” are the convenient excuse for literally anything the state wants to do? Do you think that the government has earned this blind faith? Can you really be that fucking stupid?
You wonder why I think you are an authoritarian? Because you intrinsically believe authority, despite all available reasons for skepticism. Pretty much the textbook definition of the word.
Democratizing information and the flow of information is essential for democracy to flourish. It’s part of the reason the Founders established the First Amendment, which the modern media has decided to cede to “national secrets” and the government.
Accepting the government’s word for what should be held from you is a joke.
Seebach
@Ija: Wow. That’s horrible. But everyone knows that’s nonsense. The US government has never done anything unethical and tried to keep that a secret. So everyone should dismiss that story on sight.
soonergrunt
@Seebach: Dude, just because she goes on about pies all the time is no reason to get so emo. All she said was:
jwb
@matoko_chan: cudlip, not if the organization collapses, or if leakers can’t make contact with Wikileaks because the channels have become so decentralized that the leakers can’t find them. Only what’s in the pipeline is automated and so can go out without the organization functioning.
arguingwithsignposts
I predict an approaching cudlip storm in 3 … 2 … 1
soonergrunt
@Peter J: And so you bootstrap that to them assisting the CIA with a fake rape charge?
Yuppers
@soonergrunt: I think you’re confusing Sweden with Switzerland.
matoko_chan
@John O:
tell me haow, plz.
the feds tried to stop the Iraq doc release. Fail.
the feds tried to stop the diplo cable release. Fail.
do you think the “poison pill” is a bluff?
i dont.
the feds are trying to cut off WL funding, but just giving them moar publicity.
if you read Assanges mission statement, the system killer beta test is WAI.
There are now 1005 wikileaks mirror sites.
you can donate here.
KEEP US STRONG – DONATE http://wikileaks.ch/support.html
jwb
@Seebach:matoko_chan is a single function commentbot, code named CUDLIP, being field tested for full deployment after the ELE.
arguingwithsignposts
@jwb:
m_c appears to be WAI naow.
jwb
@arguingwithsignposts: Yes, the dreaded veal cudlip.
soonergrunt
@arguingwithsignposts: Too late!
Of course, it’s just a bunch of blather about pies. I really don’t understand why everybody doesn’t pie filter her. She actually makes more sense. Her grammar, spelling, and logic all improve dramatically.
matoko_chan
@soonergrunt: Peter J is a bedroom sniffer. pretty soon he is going to make remarks on your
lady-partsmanly parts.soonergrunt
@Yuppers: Sweden has also been traditionally neutral, particularly during the cold war. It seems, however that that has changed recently in light of Peter’s link higher up.
Stillwater
But was she Cuban? And by any chance, was she a waiter? I’ve got alot riding on the Cuban waiter connection.
arguingwithsignposts
@soonergrunt:
Well, I am using a diff. machine at present, and cleek’s filter doesn’t sync across machines/browsers (which would be a cool function, btw), and I’m a little lazy. :)
Peter
@matoko_chan: I believe you are in fact referring to me. Names are hard!
matoko_chan
hmmm…..the number of mirror sites has practically doubled in 24 hours…perhaps my simple linear curve fit is wrong and mirror site creation has some sort of correlation with MAXIMIZE EXPOSURE…..or …..could it be exponential?
carry on with your bedroom sniffing, cudlips.
im off to Azeroth.
Ija
@Seebach:
No one is saying CIA is not capable of this. But there is also a history of people, especially men, smearing rape victims with all sorts of nonsense. There is a history of rape accusations not being taken seriously at all. I think it’s only fair that we wait for what happens in court. That’s the reason we have a justice system after all. Why are some people so quick to assume that the women lied?
Peter J
@soonergrunt:
Notice the italics I’ve added:
About the current situation. Do I think that there has been either pressure or suggestions from the US on what Sweden should do?
Yes, I do.
duck-billed placelot
Ugh, balloon-juice. Both/and. Assange can be both an important risk-taker working for international transparency on a he-decides-what-and-when-basis and also a douchey risk-taker who likes to rape women on a he-decides-what-and-when-basis.
The situations in the charges, if true, are rape.
The international response is, sadly, not indicative of a global sea-change in how women and consent and sex are viewed.
soonergrunt
@matoko_chan: Reading you on a different browser–
I’m not sure what you’re getting at there kiddo, but I think you’re suggesting Peter J will make comments about my sexuality? If anyone thinks that comments about my sexuality are going to bother me, they should know that I am very secure in my sexuality, whatever that happens to be.
Peter
@soonergrunt: She’s confusing Peter J and myself. She’s been calling me a ‘bedroom sniffer’ since I dared to insinuate several threads back that Assange made her feel funny in her uh-oh zone (exact words).
soonergrunt
@Peter: Oh.
Well, still. No one can insult my sexuality!
Lisa
@burnspbesq:
Jesus, I was speculating on what I have read in the newspapers. Forgive me for not memorizing Swedish law in order to satisfy your fat and delusionally self-important ass.
Now go back to your corner and finish stirring your lithium or whatever it is you were doing.
Peter J
@soonergrunt:
I think matoko_chan, as Peter (without a J) observed, has mixed up Peter and Peter J.
I’m really not a bedroom sniffer.
But I’m hoping that Cuddles, aka burnspbesq, will school me on Swedish Law.
zuzu (not that one, the other one)
@John O:
AFAIK, he’s got two accusations made against him:
1) One woman agreed to sex with him on the explicit condition he wear a condom. He agreed. At some point she realized he was not wearing one, having either never put one on at all or slipped it off without her knowledge. This, under Swedish law is sexual assault because he misrepresented compliance with the thing that her consent was conditioned upon. And why? Because in Sweden, sex without consent is sexual assault.
2) The other woman agreed to have sex with him if he wore a condom. He did. At some point, the condom broke and she asked that he stop immediately, withdrawing her consent. He continued, using his weight to pin her down so she could not get away. This is sexual assault in Sweden, and at least in Maryland here in the US.
As a personal note, I’ve had scenario #2 happen to me. It’s fucking terrifying and all kinds of violative, especially when it’s someone you trust (or did trust). I know everyone likes to have a good giggle about the Swedes and their silly notions of consent, but it’s not just rape when he holds a knife to your throat.
That said, I do think the timing of the international manhunt is suspicious as all hell, given that these charges were filed in August. But I also think that the charges’ validity is independent of what he’s doing with Wikileaks.
magurakurin
my two observations.
If this is a frame up, its a really shitty one. See Godfather II for how it should be done, “You’re lucky this is my brother’s place…” The CIA has really fallen from its heights if this is the best they can do to frame Assange.
Everyone wants to assign their own set of goals to Wikileaks, but Assange is pretty clear what he is up to. It isn’t exposing war criminals and it isn’t having “less” secrets. His stated goal is a bit James Bondish, to me anyway
1. Release secrets and sensitive data to stress and frighten the world state security system.
2. Force the system to become even more secretive(and life to become less free for all of us) so that it becomes so closed and restrictive that it cannot function.(how long we will have endure this super secretive and restrictive world system is unclear…)
3. World security system collapses
4. ?????????
5. We live in a happier, freer and more just world.
It’s how long we stay at 2 and just what happens between 3 and 5 that bothers me.
zuzu (not that one, the other one)
@Ija:
The rape culture, of course.
Sadly, that readiness to smear women who charge men with rape as liars would make this kind of thing the perfect ratfucking operation if the CIA were behind it. And if they coerced the accusers, it wouldn’t matter, because the reaction would come down on the accusers, not the coercers.
And in the meantime, nobody’s talking about the leaks anymore.
Anya
John, a Swedish commenter at this FDL (shoot me, I actually went to FDL) post about the case said that there is not mention of use of condoms in the Swedish penal code. Here is his comment from this post: Assange Accuser Worked with US-Funded, CIA-Tied Anti-Castro Group
The Comment:
soonergrunt
@zuzu (not that one, the other one):
As I noted in my first post to this thread, he is also specifically charged with having sex with a woman while she was sleeping.
That’s rape, flat out, in most jurisdictions.
I don’t know if Assange is guilty under Swedish law or not. Everything about him says to me that this is a wrong guy. He takes things to which he has no right and is abusive to those around him (from the BBC and NY Times articles about him a few months back with all the Wikileaks people he fired or who quit).
FWIW, I’ve said before and I’ll say again that I don’t believe that he has violated US law. Any attempt to prosecute him under US law wouldn’t pass the smell test with me. We don’t prosecute news sources (for example) for publishing classified materials. PFC Manning, however, is almost certainly going to do a long stretch of hard time. And rightly so.
Lisa
Zuzu I would have to agree. I went to college when this was simply called a “douchbag move” and you dealt with it with angry recriminations, a kick in the nuts, his clothes out the window/set on fire, etc. But it really is assault. He would feel violated if I, without his consent, stuck my favorite vibe up his asshole in the middle of us getting down. My first reaction is to giggle and say “bitch, just beat that ass” because I am an aggressive, angry black bitch and that is my default position for pretty much anything that threatens my person. But obviously everyone is not physically able to go all kill bill on a mofo if he decides he does not want wear a condom or wants some unconsensual anal, etc. The law makes perfect sense when I stop giggling/joking and think about it like an adult.
But the timing of all this bullshit is still pretty damn suspicious.
Peter
@Anya: There doesn’t have to be, if the scenario as described is correct.
Lisa
@soonergrunt: He really does sound like a fucking predator and an all around asshole.
But I hope the “secret documents” keep coming, even if they throw his ass in jail for being a predator.
Wikileaks is epic.
Seebach
@Lisa: I think he has to be a predator and an asshole to be insane enough to pull a stunt like this.
Mild mannered John Q. Milquetoast probably doesn’t say “Fuck – I’m gonna take on every world government today.” So he’s an insane narcissist, but the US political system is broken. He’s pissing off everyone I hate, so he has to be doing something right.
Visa and Mastercard are refusing to allow people to add debt to their credit cards. That’s how dangerous they find him.
gocart mozart
@burnspbesq:
Since you seem to be a high ranking Sweedish Balloon Juice law expert, what are your thoughts on my following thoughts:
Why is the penalty only a fine of up to 700 something dollars. What is ‘sex by surprise’? What is the point of this particular law? If it were ‘RAPE’, the maximum sentence would be much stronger would it not? As always, the media is doing a shitty job of explaining it.
My best guess, and I could be wrong, is that this law is a way for someone who has had unprotected sex and is worried about Aids or other STD’s, to force their partner to get tested. A judge might say “Get tested or face a $750 fine.” for example. Perhaps some type of ‘journalist’ should look into this. Just my two cents.
Maude
@Anya:
That guy has been making the rounds of some blogs.
zuzu (not that one, the other one)
@Lisa: Keep in mind as well that Sweden’s view of sexual assault is based on consent, not on force/violence/coercion. So if you’re accustomed to thinking of rape as something involving force, it may be hard to wrap your mind around a consent-based model or take it seriously.
And agreed, the timing — and the international manhunt — is hella suspicious. That doesn’t mean the charges are fake, though, just as it doesn’t mean the leaks are invalid.
soonergrunt
@Seebach:
I should think Visa and Mastercard are all about the transaction fees. I would also not be remotely surprised for their lawyers to have done assessments and found substantial potential legal exposure.
Peter J
@zuzu (not that one, the other one):
Not true. But there’s a debate about changing laws making it true. But as of now, it’s not.
He could be convicted for the second one though. It’s a new one that hasn’t been reported before. Might be a problem convicting him for it though, there’s no evidence, and I’m pretty certain that the defense will both bring up what the second woman did in the days after and also the communications between the two women. It’s going to be his words against hers.
catclub
It appears that no one has commented on the parallels and diffferences between the case of Julian Assange and Roman Polanski.
One was convicted ( confessed) to a sex crime against a minor and fled the US, but was not extradited.
The other is accused of some sexual misconduct, there is apparently no warrant for his arrest, Swedish investigators just want to question him, and he is in custody with no bail.
Seebach
@Peter J: It will be interesting, because for the first time, you’re going to have people’s willingness to hate on rape accusers competing directly with the power of the US national security state.
Which is more powerful? The US government or the patriarchy?
They’re sluts… but he’s a traitor… they had sex… but he’s sleazy!!!
BRAINS EXPLODE
Michael
@mikefromArlington:
Don’t engage matoko. He’s a fucking moron who needs a straightjacket. And I say that as an Assange supporter.
gocart mozart
Perhaps some sort of system could be set up on the internet whereby people could leak information about what INTERPOL and the Sweedish, English and American authorities are up to vis a vis this whole brokencondomgate/sex by surprise charge. Enough with this secrecy!
WikiLeakyCondom?
Zuzu's Petals
@zuzu (not that one, the other one):
Your new screen name, I like it.
gocart mozart
@catclub:
Hmmm, I wonder what the difference could be. Anti Australian prejudice perhaps?
soonergrunt
@catclub: BBC is calling it an arrest warrant.
The international warrant for Roman Polanski is still in effect. France and Switzerland refuse to extradite him, but that is a different issue.
Hawes
So, if you have sex with someone and then have sex with them in the morning while they are sleeping (how small is his John Thomas that she didn’t wake up?) that’s rape? It’s consensual in the evening, but the next morning, in the same bed it’s rape?
It also seems that Sweden has three different “types” of rape and he is being alleged to have committed the least egregious kind. While I’m confused about how morning after sex is rape, I do like the idea of the legal code differentiating between types of sexual assault.
Mark S.
@Hawes:
Uh, yes.
Peter
@Hawes: Yeeeees? She consented to sex during the night. She did not consent to have sex in the morning, and she certainly did not consent to sex while she was asleep.
Rita R.
So Hawes you subscribe to the belief that once a woman has given consent, she’s given consent forever, huh? Sleeping, without a condom when she said to use one, while she’s telling him to stop — doesn’t really matter. Once she gives it up, she’s his whenever he wants it. I thought we’d gotten past those days, but I guess not.
Michael
Hide your kids, hide your wife, they rapin’ everybody up here in Stockholm (said in a Swedish accent).
Mark S.
@Lisa:
He most likely is an asshole but it’s a little premature to be calling him a predator.
Anya
@Maude: Maybe he’s from some PR firm representing the Swedish government. The Swedish justice system has been taking a beating and most people think it’s been manipulated or strong armed by the US. I don’t think they appreciate that.
Lisa
@Mark S.: Yes. Premature. But internet speculations (especially absurdly premature ones) are good to pass the time. This might all be a crock of shit that is the 2010 version of spreading rumors that someone is gay to discredit them (remember that fun little tactic used on the very young and awesomely ferocious crusader, Ralph Nader back in the 50s/60s? My mom still laughs about that).
Mark S.
As I said on an earlier thread, Assange deserves a Medal of Honor for alerting us to the problem that fucking privates in the army have access to our most sensitive diplomatic correspondence. Thank goodness none of our enemies would have thought of merely getting one of their agents to enlist in the fucking army to get this information.
bago
Matoko is using stupid acronyms, but the theory is sound. In essence, there are in any system that are connected. There is a cost for moving information from one node to another. that cost could be time, classification, employees to do the recordkeeping, interrupting to get approval, etc. Now with a very complex and fast network, learning happens rapidly, as all kinds of intelligence moves around very quickly. For example, united 93. They got the information about the whole plane+ building thing very quickly and cheaply, and corroborated from enough sources, that they were able to shut the attack down.
An example of high node to node costs biting us in the ass would be your standard complaints about beaurocracy. Waiting for manager approval, waiting for it to be filed in triplicate, classified, and not getting to the right department, leaving the evidence that you need to complete your investigation on these Saudis taking flying lessons.
The Government, used to operating in secrecy and deliberate slowness( 3 years to get an it job in the state department), got their ass handed to them on 9/11, and tried to have it both ways. They increased the secrecy by classifying everything by default, but also increased the speed of their network by giving a private first class access to all of this newly secret data.
The human element is always the easiest part of a network to hack into, and so mr Assange did. The government wanted the best of both worlds, security and speed, but they failed to properly assess what a leak means in the world of the Internet.
In order for the Internet to work, thousands upon thousands of copies of any information transmitted are made. Once someone knows you’re trying to erase those copies, demand to copy that information goes through the roof. You can’t buy off the Internet like you can a journalist, or congressmen. There’s nobody to lean against, except the very Internet itself. Waging a war on the Internet would be like waging war on roads. Society would collapse.
Because secrecy(including distribution) and speed are at odds with each other in an organization, one weak node blows the whole thing up. If the org over-reacts by imposing higher costs to network speed and information distribution, they lose the ability to react quickly like the united 93 folks. If they make everything secret, but widely distributed, then they lose security and you get more leaks.
The only way for the org to proceed rationally is to reduce the number of things made secret. This means secret things will be slow, but it means hey are more secure. It has this nice side benefit of allowing for a more informed populace, which is one of those things you shoot for in a democracy.
This is why the media and politicians hate Assange. Being bribed to say nothing is a pretty sweet gig.
bago
Sent from my iPhone.
JC
Incadu,
Dissemination, Insemination.
I chuckled loudly at that, I must say. Not LOL (which gets used even when no one LOL’d), but more than a smile.
Calouste
@Mark S.:
__
How would you know that they didn’t? They’re not going to leak it and make clear to the US that there is a hole in their security you can drive a car through. My assumption is that none of what is released was a surprise to Russia or China, only a bit of an emberrasment.
matoko_chan
@bago:
kay used ELE in a post t’other day and no one bitched about it. OODA loop is a stupid acronym? watev.
i dont care- im ESTATIC that some one here actually can understand the systems theory and information theory and can get away from sniffing Assanges crotch long enough to articulate it.
kudos.
bago, can you think of a way that the feds could turn off the system killer beta prototype?
i cant think of one– they seem to have tried everything.
Assange is irrelevant to beta function at this point, except as a kabuki publicity generator.
the system is WAI.
:)
matoko_chan
Facebook and Twitter stand by Wikileaks.
i dont see facebook caving, Zuckerman is basically a crypto-anarchist.
Twitter might be suppressing trending, but i think going full Iranian might be too much even for them.
matoko_chan
to answer my own question to bago, google or twitter censorship is likely the only way to restrict citizen access to WL data.
and if that happens, that means the US is turning into a police state like China or Iran….and that means the system is WAI.
Assange is predicting that the US will turn into a police state on the way to non-linear information system collapse.
at what point does the judiciary get involved?
that seems like a more legit question for the legalistas here than sniffing Assange’s crotch or trying to find a justification for prosecuting a non-US citizen for treason or espionage (since the US has no secrets act.)
i think it is likely illegal, if not just immoral to employ skiddies and spammers to mount DDOS attacks with taxpayer dollars.
but there is the black budget and plausible deniability.
THE
Wouldn’t it at least have been possible to limit the amount of data Manning downloaded? Something should be monitoring it. This seems the most ridiculous part of the leak to me. All those Gigs of data.
Also why do secure facilities need to have ports for external storage anyway? I mean CD ROMs? Flash drives? WTF?
Nothing should enter or leave a computer unencrypted and the PC ought to be in a solid locked box that can’t be easily broken into physically.
Just my naive questions. No experience with security at all.
THE
If all storage had been encrypted by default and not able to be turned off,
then even if he had sent the files to WikiLeaks they wouldn’t have been able to read them.
Only another secure computer that knew the key could read them.
THE
Bitlocker and BitLocker to Go on Windows 7 can encrypt all your storage.
Military versions should not be able to disable it.
No I do not have shares in Microsoft.
matoko_chan
@THE: too late for stop Manning naow tho. i think they are powerless to stop it.
got to be a bitch for the hyperpower to be powerless.
THE
@matoko_chan:
That article i wanted you to read was about the future of the hyperpower. It had nothing to do with wikileaks.
brantl
@Strandedvandal:
.
“Why are there so many on the left defending this son of a bitch? He has obtained stolen Government material and knowingly disseminated them. What is there to defend? ”
Of what there is to defend, there is the following:
Of what Assange chose to leak to papers (having done his own due dilligence in deciding what to leak), the papers then decided what they themselves saw fit to print. If they have printed these things, THEY MADE THE CHOICE THEMSELVES, ESSENTIALLY IN AGREEMENT WITH ASSANGE THAT WHAT THEY PRINTED SHOULD HAVE SEEN PRINT.
If you want to see Assange strung up for this, certainly the papers should be, too? Assange is not a U.S. citizen, and holding him on a trumped up rape charge should have whoever is holding him feeling very ashamed of themselves. And as Gates says, this is trivial.
brantl
@Strandedvandal: Next to nothing. Unless they piss away a lot of money trying to pillory Assange.
bago
Bitlocker is a solution for extra-os reading of data. If you compromise the human who uses their credentials to decrypt the data, bitlocker is bypassed. As soon as anyone can read data, you have a potential leak.
THE
but bago, what’s he going to do?
Is he going to use a camera to photograph the screen?
He is going to copy 250 000 documents this way?
Use a metal detector at the gate of the building.
Or use a nude airport type scanner to check workers going in or out.
He can’t load anything onto a flashdrive or cd rom without it being encrypted,
and he can’t turn the encryption off on milspec windows is what I’m saying.
I mean assuming you have ports for external storage anyway.
I don’t really see why you need them.
You don’t need to take stuff home if it is a really secure facility.
Sleep at the office if you are so dedicated.
If you are needing to travel, log on to the secure facility through a secure and encrypted network.
Do your storage on the network servers also encrypted.