If you haven’t been paying attention, the Senate voted 53-36 in favor of the President’s tax cut plan, which, to most Americans, would make it seem like the President won.
Sadly, in America, this means that the 36% of the Senate who voted against the tax cut plan win, trumping the majority view point in the Senate, a clear majority in the House, the President, and the majority will of the American people.
It’s a heckuva system we got going for us, making sure the plutocracy is always safe.
NR
And why shouldn’t the Republicans have voted to filibuster the bill? Obama has already signaled that he fully intends to capitulate to them yet again.
Although at this point, I don’t think we can call it capitulation. I’m with Digby: Obama wants the tax cuts for the top bracket extended. There’s no other way to explain his behavior here.
nitpicker
Feingold voted against. I know I’ll be pummeled for this, but I’ll be glad when his sanctimonious, bullshit “maverickness” is gone from the Senate.
MattR
I happened across a Denver Post editorial today advocating that Democrats extend all the tax cuts because it was obvious that that was the only way that Republicans would ever agree to vote for middle class tax cuts.
Corner Stone
I’m Broken
Judas Escargot
And I wonder what percentage of the American People were represented by those 36 Senators, given the usual demographics?
@NR: It’s also possible that he wants the cuts to expire entirely, since that’s the default endgame if no Bill passes at all. In the long term, going back to the pre-Bush rates would probably be best for the country.
But I of course have no way of knowing what’s in Obama’s head, either.
Jade Jordan
If the dems were on the people’s side they would keep the Senate in session until it passed or until 1/3 arrived (including the holidays).
Bet some of them would cave or leave.
Bnut
How the hell do you have TEN no shows on a vote like this????
Corner Stone
@NR:
Capitulation is the wrong word. Agreement, that’s closer.
Corner Stone
@Judas Escargot:
It’s always possible. Politicians being what they are, i guess he could’ve been playing a long game of “opposites” this whole time.
Because Nick notwithstanding, Obama has been stating clearly for some time what he’d agree to.
Martin
@Bnut: Republicans knew the filibuster would hold. Didn’t want to be on the record voting against a tax cut. Sat it out. I’m surprised it wasn’t a 53-0 loss.
Anya
Why don’t they do it through reconciliation?
@nitpicker: It’s because Obama didn’t use the bully pulpit. Let’s just impeach this manchurian fraud and ship him to Africa, so we can be rid of him!
Dollared
@Corner Stone
No, really. He has alternatives to agreement, and he indicates that he would rather not agree. So if capitulation is too latinate for for you, “surrender” is quite accurate.
I’m also open to “sell out”.
The Dangerman
@NR:
I can see why (for 2 or 3 years) given the economy is in the shitter and looks like it will stay in the shitter for a while. Such residency in said shitter would be hard with the Right screaming about raising taxes on the job producers (yeah, it’s bullshit, but they are good at messaging).
I just hope Obama gets a shitload in return for a short term extension. Time will tell.
Seebach
Since the American system is broken, I don’t know why more people aren’t excited about Wikileaks. Honestly, it’s only Wikileaks or the arsenic monsters who are going to save us now.
MikeJ
And if Obama had said that he wouldn’t sign what the republicans want, why does anybody think the vote would be any different?
Bnut
@Martin: What a bunch of rat finks. I found the vote tally and the non-votes read like a whos who of right wing assholedom.
Dollared
JC, I’m not Ezra but I’m thinking that if this had been in a reconciliation resolution for this budget, 53 would have done the trick.
So to be clear, the Democrats are at fault for not prioritizing this.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe this is a team loss.
Mnemosyne
@Bnut:
Eleven, by my count. I’m wondering why the rules of the Senate are so fucking stupid as to insist you have to have 60 out of 100 votes to overcome cloture even though 11 people aren’t there to vote.
Mnemosyne
@Bnut:
Every single one of the members listed as “not voting” were Republicans. I guess some people were nervous about being on the record voting against tax cuts and decided that cutting and running was the safer thing to do.
Corner Stone
@MikeJ: We’ll never know, will we?
cat48
If they don’t change the rules at the beginning of the next session, they all should DIAF. At least we could get some liberal judges and appointees approved even if they can’t pass any legislation next year.
MikeJ
@Corner Stone: There’s no reason to think they would have. They don’t want anything to pass. They won’t let anything pass.
Emerald
@Anya:
They can only use reconciliation once per year, and they’ve already used it this year.
lacp
Could we have a show of hands? Exactly how many people are actually surprised by this?
Corner Stone
@MikeJ: I agree but in all ways it’s counterfactual. Given what they knew, why in hell would the R’s do anything but what they did?
My point is, we’ll never know a lot of outcomes because they have been short circuited by WH interference or malfeasance.
kdaug
@Bnut: Hold it on a Saturday.
Corner Stone
@lacp: Me! I’m surprised!
Rick Taylor
Following the link I read on abc news
__
Once again, they’re willfully distorting it. If this is a bill to allow taxes to rise on income above $250,000, then every bill ever passed in the last four years “allows” this to happen. This was a bill to preserve the tax cuts on income under $250,000. It’s no surprise, but the game is rigged.
cat48
@Dollared:
There was NO BUDGET this year. Ezra said they were going to regret not doing a budget because they couldn’t do reconcilliation without the budget notation. The House didn’t want to vote on one because of campaign ads. Really saved a lot of seats for them!! NOT
robertdsc-PowerBook
Funny how Dick Lugar voted No, thereby stabbing his START treaty in the back.
Personally, if Obama’s going to claim the right to kill American citizens without trial, the 42 GOP senators would be a good set of targets for their treason.
lacp
@Corner Stone: That sounds awfully snarkolicious.
NR
@MikeJ: Why should they? The Democrats have never made them pay a price for their obstructionism, so why should they stop?
Obama could be out there right now hammering the Republicans for voting to raise taxes on the middle class. Instead, he’s been out of the country and he’s sent Geithner to negotiate with the Republicans to “find a way forward.”
Reward bad behavior, and you will get more of it. Of course, when that bad behavior is a useful tool for getting what you really want, you want to keep it going, so….
lawguy
I’m going out now, but I’ll be back to see if the usual suspects show up to tell us how it could be no other way. That we just don’t understand politics. It is written in the stars that we must lose when we think we have overwhelming majorities in congress and control the presidency.
Is there really anyone alive who believes that this is something the democrats don’t want to happen?
Corner Stone
@lacp: No, not at all. I’m honestly surprised that the same exact language and tactics of the last two years have now failed again after the bipartisan summit.
Anya
Conrad is yea, but Webb is nay. Is Webb not the dude who cares so much about the blight of the poor, especially discriminated against whites? Why does he want to filibuster a vote because the multi-millionaires are not getting an additional tax cut. I swear I will never understand these assholes.
Tom M
Given how little tax policy has on the economy, why not just let them expire? The Republicans did pass the tax cuts (through reconciliation) with a built-in expiry. I thought the big line was more than 40% of taxpayers don’t pay income tax anyway.
Corner Stone
@lawguy: Name names before you go and I’ll keep count.
Anya
@Emerald: Thanks!
cat48
@NR:
The Senate could blow up the filibuster too, but they’re chicken! Always blame Obama anyway though.
General Stuck
The only possible, and I emphasize possible way to pull the senate out of it’s death spiral, with us tethered to it, is for the libs there to take a blood oath, and all of them start bringing gutta-percha canes to work every day, and start senate business with a hearty shout “remember the Sumner”
Yutsano
@Anya: Webb’s vote may not be all that mysterious, as he voted yes on the $1 mil bill of Schumer’s. It could be that he wants to revise the definition of rich upwards some, although creating brackets above $250K would do a lot more for that.
lacp
@Corner Stone: I assume you were shocked to find out there was gambling in Rick’s cafe, too, right?
JBerardi
@NR:
Well, I hope you and Digby are enjoying yourselves on the USS CrazyPants there. If he wanted those cuts to remain, why wouldn’t he just say so? Because he’d pay a political price for advocating wasteful and unnecessary tax cuts for the wealthy? Do you remember what country we live in, and what everyone here believes?
No, I’m now convinced that he really, truly, and most of all tragically believes in bipartisanship.
Although, even that belief still makes no fucking sense. I can’t think of a better one, though.
lacp
@General Stuck: Dunno if beating senators unconscious is really a good idea (assuming that they have any to begin with). Dumping the filibuster might help, though.
Corner Stone
@lacp: Whhhaaaaaattt?!
The hell you say sir! The hell you say!
Cacti
And remember…
Republican intransigence is Obama’s fault.
Pussy!
Primary him with a
white guytrue progressive!Bnut
@lacp:How close are Casablanca references to the Godwin Line?
General Stuck
@lacp:
Don’t have to beat anyone. My use was a metaphor for intimidation through unity of purpose and courage and action to carry it out. Wingnuts today are physical cowards, you won’t need to cane them. You just need to piss in their wheaties every morning.
Doing away with the filibuster, I could support, if only to speed up the looming dystopia
lacp
@Bnut: Uh-oh, guess I’d better limit my dress-up to Renaissance Faire peasants instead of Waffen SS Wiking.
Baud
@JBerardi:
It seems to make perfect sense in a world where he needs at least a couple of GOP votes to get anything through the Senate. It also makes sense in a world where Obama is held responsible for how the GOP votes in Congress.
lacp
@General Stuck: Purpose? Courage? Action? Dude, this is America – we do money and violence. That’s all from today’s sermon.
General Stuck
The senate is theater only. nothing moves until the House STARTS it.
headtodesk
General Stuck
@lacp:
i will continue to dream a little dream for me. rose marie
Nick
@NR:
Which is why he spent MONTHS arguing otherwise, because secretly, he wanted them extended. Which is why he’s threatening to VETO them if he doesn’t get an extension of unemployment.
Why the hell should he fight for anything, you wouldn’t believe him if he did.
FlipYrWhig
@NR: So when you only 50 out of 58 Democrats to vote yes on both of these bills (the $250K one everyone calls a no-brainer, and the $1M one), it’s Obama’s fault? Why? Why is that? Why isn’t it the Senate Democrats’ fault? They took the vote. You think Joe Lieberman and Ben Nelson would have voted yes if Obama was either nicer or meaner to him? This is what _Senate Democrats_ want to do, and they have done so consistently, whereas Obama has consistently said for about 3 years that what he wants is a tax cut for $1-$250K and not on $250K to infinity.
Key Senate Democrats actually, genuinely, authentically don’t support what Obama consistently says he wants. They don’t want to take a stand and oppose Republican giveaways to rich people, they want to make giveaways to rich people. I don’t get how Senate votes, by Senators, who can do things the White House doesn’t want and seem to _enjoy_ doing things the White House doesn’t want, must be actually what the White House wants, in the Digby theory. Frankly, it’s asinine.
If Senate Democrats thought Obama’s “compromise,” or what has been sketched out as an expected compromise, was bullshit and went too far, they could figure out something else to do, draw up that bill, and pass it, correct? Why don’t they do that? Because they disagree, and because for just enough ot them it is worth _more_ to them to be on the record disagreeing than to present a united front that makes The Democratic Position coherent and defensible. Senate Democrats have been backstabbing Democratic presidents and failing to show unity as long as I can remember. You’ve just seen it. But, no, it’s obviously the fault of the Democratic president, not the thing that center-right Senate Democrats have been doing consistently since Clinton if not Carter.
Merkin
@NR: The Democrats have never made them pay a price for their obstructionism, so why should they stop?
The people have never made them pay a price either, but nevermind them I guess.
FlipYrWhig
@JBerardi:
I think he believes in the possibility of bipartisanship, and is resigned to the necessity of some form of bipartisanship (at least in the absence of filibuster reform, which he mentioned on the Daily Show interview and may have been my favorite moment), but does not truly believe that Republicans will ever seriously reciprocate. But he also believes that bipartisan _gestures_ play well with Republican and moderate/independent _voters_, so a hollow gesture within the Beltway–even one that gets slapped down–might earn points outside it. I’m not sure it’s been a raging success, although it’s possible that his standing about moderates and indies would be even worse without that approach.
FlipYrWhig
@FlipYrWhig: Doh, dumb typos: The beginning should be
General Stuck
@FlipYrWhig:
Stopping left wing Obama fail wanking? Why not cool down the earth with slurpees? same odds
NR
@Nick:
Just like he promised to filibuster the FISA bill, and then turned around and voted for it. I’m not sure why you’re so willing to believe him now when he’s flat-out lied to us before.
lacp
@General Stuck: I think your idealism is admirable, although I may not share your political beliefs; I think your cultural reference would force me to shoot you on the spot if I ever met you.
JoePo
@nitpicker: Yes, clearly Russ Feingold has been the problem plaguing the Democratic Caucus, because who needs an actual progressive who has legitimately questioned government overreach in a time when those sentiments were unpopular, while also speaking out against wars while his colleagues were shitting themselves in the corner for fear of political repercussions. Obviously, the problem is his clearly symbolic no-vote that didn’t make a difference because the legislative apparatus of the Senate is totally broken.
General Stuck
@lacp:
It wasn’t idealism. It was self indulgent fantasy. Get your own.
and don’t miss.
J
A point that can’t be overemphasized (which is my excuse for making it): The Republicans chief talking point is, once again, a lie through and through. We, they say, are holding out for reduced taxes for all Americans. The Democrats’ proposal to maintain the reduced rate on income under $250, 000 will reduce rates for all Americans (who have a taxable income) over what they would otherwise have been if the present law expires on schedule because–get this–you can’t make $300,000 without making $250, 000, and it’s only the part of your income above $250, 000 that will be taxed at the old (anything but onerous) rate. If the past is a guide, I assume the media is making a mess of this point.
Yutsano
@NR:
Objection: relevance. At least try to get an analogous situation before making douchebag comparisons.
Nick
@NR:
Like i said, why should he fight, you wouldn’t believe him anyway.
JPL
IMO, The President understands that unemployment compensation needs to be extended and middle class taxes need to be extended. If they are not, the economy as well as 80% of our citizens will suffer. He’s willing to put country first.
Personally I would like Nancy to adjourn the House since she has passed the bills that needed to be passed and then let the Senate fight it out. Personally I would like Obama to visit ME, and MA and say enough is enough. Brown and the ME Senators should not be holding tax cuts for the middle class hostage.
Tattoosydney
I’ve said it before, and I will say it many times in the future I expect – your political system is fucked.
kdaug
Let “Bush tax cuts” expire. Introduce “Obama tax cuts” next year. Easy as pie.
Merkin
@NR:
At least you admit he made the case. Now, of course, since you hate him, you have to pivot to “but he lies anyway”
Merkin
@kdaug:
you do realize the House of Representatives introduces tax bills.
Not as easy as pie anymore, huh?
JPL
@Tattoosydney: You did a pretty good job at rescuing an adorable dog, now can you adopt an older American?
Merkin
@Yutsano:
Having been forced to admit that the President actually fought for something and lost, and thus deserves credit for once, NR had to pivot to the next Obama-bashing meme.
At least he’s consistent.
Yutsano
@Tattoosydney: I’ve been trying to think of an analogous situation in the Westminster parliamentary system, and the closest I can come up with is a hung Parliament with two opposite factions agreeing on a coalition, but every vote is still a battle trying to satisfy that coalition. But there really is nothing like the American Senate anywhere in the world.
BTW you know it would make for great popcorn moments from your right if an aboriginal got selected as PM. I’d even send you some really good heirloom stuff from over here for that.
@Merkin: Foolish consistencies, hobgoblins, and little minds. I shan’t say more.
Ailuridae
@Anya:
Any tax cut adds to the deficit so it can’t be done by reconciliation.
Merkin
@Yutsano:
The Italian Parliament comes close. But, yeah, the American Senate is unique, not in it’s design, the House of Lords is similar, but in the amount of power a purposely undemocratic institution is given
Corner Stone
@Yutsano: C’mon now.
NR
@FlipYrWhig: Yes, yes, I’ve heard all this before. The president is totally powerless, with no ability to get his way from defiant members of his own party in Congress. Except, of course, when it comes to defiant progressive members of Congress who oppose Obama’s agenda from the left–in which case they get bullied and threatened into toeing the White House line.
Isn’t it funny how Obama was able to intervene with Senate Democrats to save Joe Lieberman’s chairmanship, but unable to intervene to save the middle-class tax cuts he claims to so fervently support? Poor Obama just can’t do anything about Congress, except when he can.
Corner Stone
@JPL:
Great! I agree! Why isn’t he?
NR
@Nick:
Because then the tax cuts for the rich might not happen. And he doesn’t want that.
Jeff
I have a question for those who would be upset at Obama if the tax cut package included a temporary tax cut for the wealthy. If the tax cut package also guaranteed a one year extension for unemployment insurance, would you still be against the package? If that was the only way that insurance would be extended, would you still be against it?
If so, please rationalize to me how it’s more important that wealthy people don’t get a tax cut than unemployed people get their insurance.
Yutsano
@Corner Stone: What I done did this time? :)
arguingwithsignposts
@NR:
I’m not being ornery, but – link?
Corner Stone
@Merkin: Oh fuck you. What fight?
General Stuck
@Tattoosydney:
It’s not our political system that is fucked TS. It is half the country wants to turn us into Franco’s Spain, and are very persistent. If our founders would have given us a parliamentary system like yours, or GB, we would have had elections every couple of weeks, while likely shooting at each other in between, and maybe not lasted a decade or two.
They gave us a stable system on paper, that also inhibits rapid changes, and most of the time, in practice, it has worked fairly well, give or take . But for all sorts of reasons, the Franco fascist types are feeling electorally and ideologically threatened by strange peeps that don’t look like them, nor believe like them and can vote, with a promise of more of those folks as time moves on. So they have turned that stable system in on itself and into a slow motion coup of sorts, apparently to bring it all down to start over. They appear to be succeeding, for now.
Cliff
@Merkin:
oh, me so sad. tax cuts on the credit card expired. . Oh, Me So Sad =(
anyway, the original budget busting tax cuts were passed thru reconciliation, why not these new stupid budget busting tax cuts?
Sly
@Yutsano:
Very few countries try to embrace something that they openly hate, in America’s case that thing being democracy.
Hamilton’s proposal at the convention was to have a Senate and President elected for life, have state governors appointed by Congress, Congress would have veto power over any state law, and the President would have an absolute veto . All the other delegates loved it, but knew they’d have a revolution on their hands if they went with it.
The trick, you see, is to give the people just enough of what they want to keep them mildly content. And give it to them good and hard.
Yutsano
@arguingwithsignposts:
I call bullpuckey.
FlipYrWhig
@NR: I don’t think anyone thinks elections are won and lost on Joe Lieberman’s chairmanship. Plenty of people think elections–especially their own–are won and lost on taxes.
But the larger point is that if Senate Democrats had a problem with Obama’s compromise, they could get themselves together and do something else, correct? Why haven’t they done that? My best guess is because they don’t actually agree on what’s to be done. Seems pretty simple.
One of the best features of progressives is that their instinct is to… make progress, to choke down the bitter apple and make the best of a bad situation, to choose to do what’s in their power to help people who are hurting. “Conscience,” you can call it. Non-progressives utterly lack it. You can’t play that card on Ben Nelson or Evan Bayh or whoever, because they have no soul. That’s why you can twist progressives’ arms and induce them to embrace half-measures and ugly compromises, but you can’t do that on conservatives and corporate hacks.
NR
@Merkin: Are you seriously this stupid? Obama didn’t fight for shit. This is what Gibbs said right after the House passed the middle-class tax cuts:
No sane person could possibly call that fighting.
NR
@Yutsano:
Do you enjoy being wrong?
ronathan richardson
Oh, and a big ol’ F U to your new senator is in order, JCole.
numbskull
@General Stuck: OMG! I agree with The General! Man, I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue…
General Stuck
@NR:
I hear ya dude. Obama shoulda threatened them wingnuts with a government paid vacation to Gitmo. Them goopers would have kissed his ring and ass, and begged for more.
“fight” pffft, NR shows us how real manly men do it. Blogging.
Suck It Up!
@Cacti:
lol!!! you ain’t lyin’!
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Weird that Russ Feingold didn’t get your memo that he’s supposed to be completely cowed. He voted against cloture today, the same way he voted against cloture for fin reg.
And, of course, Bernie Sanders completely collapsed under the pressure over the healthcare bill and only walked away with a billion dollars for neighborhood clinics that he demanded in exchange for his vote. What a lo-oser. A real sociaIist would have refused to vote even if they offered him what he was asking for.
BGinCHI
I think it’s high time Obama picked one GOP Senator and just went psycho on him, like it’s his first day in prison.
General Stuck
@numbskull:
I may start sniffing glue
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone:
One possibility: he wants to have their votes on other issues, and by antagonizing them he’ll lose that chance.
Another possibility: the public that supports his tax cut plan isn’t likely to vote against politicians who oppose it but have a reservoir of goodwill stored up. Thus Mainers might be rallied to call their Senators to support the Obama tax cut plan, but then when Collins and Snowe balk anyway, the voters won’t be upset enough not to reelect them. I think this is one of the most dire lessons of the past few years of politics: there aren’t very many issues left that actually determine how voters vote; it’s become so purely tribal that issues and policy are ceasing to matter. If Snowe can take votes that don’t square with what her voters want and can still get their votes anyway, the entire notion of representative democracy is breaking down.
Keith G
@arguingwithsignposts: this is one time when NR has facts clearly behind him. Team Obama (pre Jan 20 ’08) let it be known that Lieberman should not be shiv’ed.
kdaug
@Merkin: Sure it is. No vote in the Senate for tax cuts over $250K.
If Reid squirms, veto.
Can’t afford ’em, and we’re all concerned with the deficit and all, dontcha know.
Yutsano
@NR: Hey dumbass, don’t interject yourself into a conversation where you don’t know what the other two are talking about. But now that you got my hackles up…
BULLSHIT. Not fighting is giving up on everything. Obama has said UI extension or no deal. So get the fuck off your high horse and stop playing lefter-than-thou, we got shit to solve in this country. And none of us will be happy with the solutions, but we’ll learn to live with them.
kdaug
@Cliff: That’s why they expired in just under 10 years.
BGinCHI
Apologies if others have linked to this, but it’s a lights-out good Benen post:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_12/026925.php
And Ryan is the smartest and most serious of the GOPs.
USA! USA!
Maude
@General Stuck:
I think part of the Repugs fight is to try to keep the Reagan Doctrine from being totally dismantled.
The nutrition bill has sunk a part of Ronnie’s ideals.
Nylund
The best part of the fact that Republicans can win with only 36 votes by “filibustering” is that they don’t even have to actually filibuster!
Mike G
Who represent maybe 20% of the US population, 11% of high school graduates, and 6% of teeth.
Keith G
@NR:
Son, that’s called 11th dimensional rope-a-dope combat fu.
kdaug
@BGinCHI: “I’m not locked up in here with you, YOU’RE LOCKED UP IN HERE WITH ME!”
Then grab the nearest deep-fry basket.
General Stuck
@Maude:
That’s a big part of it, preserving the signposts of their thirty year run of conservative ideas ruling the roost.
But Obama passing HCR has sent them over the edge. They are insane, and dangerous as a party, to not only the US, but the entire world, imho.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig:
HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA
Ohhhh…fuck man….fuck…thanks dog.
Thank you for that. I haven’t laughed that hard in a while yo.
Mnemosyne
@Mnemosyne:
Oh, and don’t forget that wimp Ron Wyden, who actually agreed to vote for the healthcare bill if it included his proviso that states can opt out if they want to offer a plan that’s more generous than the federal one. Don’t these people have any idea how to negotiate?
arguingwithsignposts
@Keith G:
Like i tried to say, i really wasn’t being ornery here. just wanted a link. I could see a legitimate strategy if they were trying to keep him in camp, but just wanted a link.
Corner Stone
@kdaug: That was the ONLY part of that God forsaken movie I dug.
I was down with that shit.
Corner Stone
@Keith G: What you’re doing there? It has been seen.
Corner Stone
@numbskull: Report to de-stupidification protocols, STAT!
We can still save you!
JMY
Democrats had a chance to vote for this before the mid-terms. They choked b/c they were scared Republicans would make it into a campaign issue, which was stupid b/c how is telling the middle-class which is hurting, we’re giving you tax cuts instead of the rich a bad thing. They balked simple and plain.
Maude
@General Stuck:
The Repubs are kinda like Slim Pickens on the way down.
kdaug
@Corner Stone: The only part I really remember.
FlipYrWhig
@Nylund: I think filibuster reform is imperative, and I would actually accept taking some lumps under Republican majorities from having given up the filibuster if it meant re-establishing the principle that when you get a majority of the Senate, your party gets to _actually fucking enact things_.
It’s either that, or someone having an epiphany about how to make the filibustering party pay a price for its obstructionism. Democrats get worried about paying a price because they care about what people think; a few harsh local editorials and a few snippy emails from constituents and they start to sweat. Republicans don’t worry anymore about paying a price for any fool thing they do. Unless someone can figure out how to make them pay that price, we’ll need other ways to reboot the political system. To me, filibuster reform is a big part of that, and tighter campaign finance reform would help too.
General Stuck
@Maude:
Yee Hawwwwe!! ;)
Ailuridae
@FlipYrWhig:
Non-progressives utterly lack it. You can’t play that card on Ben Nelson or Evan Bayh or whoever, because they have no soul. That’s why you can twist progressives’ arms and induce them to embrace half-measures and ugly compromises, but you can’t do that on conservatives and corporate hacks.
But the thing is that in especially the health care bill the centrist part of the Dems did vote for policies they never would have favored to get a larger deal done. I bring this up a lot but nearly half of the health care bill was a 400B dollar expansion of Medicaid. Do you think Carper or Bayh or Landriew or Pryor were in principle in favor of expanding a federal program that burdens states by 40B a year?
Heck everyone of them except Lieberman got on board with extending medicare (at cost) to everyone over 50.
I find a lot of the centrist Democrats’ talking points to be incoherent. And, I disagree with them strongly about tax policy. But indeed when push came to shove they showed they were willing to be serious about the business of governing.
Anya
@NR:
Your comment highlights the problem with firebaggers like you. Because Obama did not address some petty and vindictive vendetta against Leiberman at a time when the country was about to plunge into great depression, then he is “weak,” “a corporate sell-out,” “worse than Bush,” and any other vile name you want to call him. Maybe Obama did not want to waste a lot of energy and air time on his first months in office feeding the media about conflicts and all manner of crazy distractions. He was in a transition period, at a difficult time and you wanted him to talk about Senate Committees? Maybe he knew that he would need that asshole lieberman’s vote to offset the asshole Dems who are to his right on domestic issues. But continue with your inane oposition because he didn’t punch Lieberman in the face for you.
WyldPirate
@NR:
A particularly pragmatically stupid move on Obama’s part after he: a.) defied the will of the people of Connecticut and campaigned against the Democratic nominee for Lieberman. and b.) Lieberman than turned around and campaigned for Grandpa McInsane.
No wonder the Rethugs and his own party thinks he’s so easy to roll….
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: So those are not possibilities, but the double-super-secret idea that he won’t do it because he actually wants the upper-income tax cuts despite saying for 3 years that he doesn’t want them and we can’t afford them, is. Got it.
Again, I don’t know why I have to spell this out over and over and over again, but I’m trying to figure out _what people might be thinking_ when they do what they do, not _what people *should* be thinking_ in order not to do what they do.
Keith G
@arguingwithsignposts:
typing “lieberman obama democratic caucus” got me:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2008/11/obama-supports-keeping-lieberm.html
mai naem
Joe Lieberdick shouldn’t be the DHS chair next congress. The guy has done zero on anything and obstructed on important stuff. The POS couldn’t even stop his good friend McLame from stopping the DADT repealing. He couldn’t even convince his good friend Susan Collins. The same woman he went up and campaigned for.
As far as I’m concerned, let the tax cuts expire. No deals, no nothing. The vast majority of people are not going to miss them and the ones who are weren’t going to vote for the Dems anyway.
FlipYrWhig
@WyldPirate:
Link, please.
IIRC Obama appeared at an event backing Lieberman in the primary, then, after Lamont won the primary, supported Lamont. I don’t remember if he appeared at any Lamont events, but IIRC he gave money and made a statement on behalf of Lamont.
Corner Stone
@Anya: Wank, wank, wank.
Give your enemies breathing room.
WyldPirate
@Mike G:
MikeG, FTW!
Tattoosydney
@JPL:
Do you bite?
FlipYrWhig
@Ailuridae: Good point, but in that case I’d say that the “centrist” holdouts on HCR were wheedled with carrots rather than with guilt-trips. You can guilt-trip a liberal; it’s kind of part of the same chromosome that makes liberals liberals. You can’t guilt-trip people with other kinds of political views. You have to buy them off or threaten them, and then it’s up to them, and they can always say “no.”
Suck It Up!
@NR:
very weak. It shows you are desperate to prove a point.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: When we get all tax cuts extended who will you decide should have done things differently?
Keith G
@WyldPirate:
dag-nabbit. You are being too vindictive and short sighted. How could you possibly find fault with this:
WPost 11/11/08
Anya
@WyldPirate:
Simple google debucks your assertion: Lamont Gets Help From Obama
Tattoosydney
@Yutsano:
The thing that seems to me to be the biggest issue, and which you would think would be a good thing, is the lack of party line voting.
Here a member of one party voting to support the other party is a thing of note (which happens very rarely outside of conscience votes on “moral issues”, where politicians are explicitly allowed to vote as they wish). At least with party line voting, the government of the day usually gets to pass their legislation, even if it then gets reviewed by the Senate. Yes, it means that a government you don’t like gets to implement their policies, but the same goes for your side after the next election.
The fact that members of the ruling party can willfully vote against the fundamental policies upon which a President from their party got elected just defies belief.
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
I hope you will learn Mr Whig, to never get into a conversation with this clown troll. Feed it piss and pie, only.
NR
@Anya: Actually, I don’t really care that much about Obama intervening on Lieberman’s behalf. I thought it was stupid back then, and I still do, but as far as problems I have with Obama, that one’s way down the list.
I only brought it up as an example of Obama influencing Senate Democrats because cultists like you claim he is completely unable to do so. There are plenty of other examples–take the fact that when he said the HCR bill had to be deficit-neutral, no one in the Senate challenged him on that.
Also, apparently you lack reading comprehension:
Since I never said that I wanted him to talk about Senate committees. All he would have had to do was stay out of the matter entirely and say nothing at all. In fact, it was Obama who chose to “talk about Senate committees” at a “difficult time.” But again, on the list of problems with Obama, this one hardly rates, despite your hysterical response to my bringing it up.
Suck It Up!
WTF? So all those yes votes was because those poor babies were bullied? LOL!!!!!!!!!! well that totally goes against the ‘Obama Is A P*ssy’ meme doesn’t it? Then again, it does fit the blatant hypocrisy amongst the left. Progressives, no matter what they do are always doing it for the right reasons. Everyone else is a spineless corporate tool.
Ailuridae
@Anya:
It’s a real shame that there isn’t a basic standard for honesty to be allowed to continue to post here.
Arclite
Why not force the Repubs to actually filibuster and then make political hay out of it? It seems like a no brainer to say, the Repubs are filibustering a middle class tax cut.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: If it happens, which I expect it will, I will blame the center-right Senate Democrats for believing in a moronic policy like giving people with incomes over $250K even more money, for refusing to hang together on Obama’s not-great but still-sensible plan, and for being a-feared that campaign ads calling them tax-hikers would be too effective to refute. I will blame them for putting Obama in a position where he either has to veto what they produce or has to pretend that he was hoping something like this would come to pass all along (which is what he said about HCR).
Tattoosydney
@General Stuck:
I suspect his is very true. It may be the difference between having your country founded by religious zealots and having it set up as a huge gaol.
Somehow we turned out less fucked up – funny about that.
Dennis SGMM
Am I the only one who has sat through this movie before? The Dems will cave on extending the tax cuts in toto. The Republicans will then rush to the microphones to explain how they courageously prevented the Democrats from raising your taxes. The UI extension will then die, either because the Republicans run out the clock, or because they refuse to vote for cloture on the grounds of fighting the deficit. Repeal of DADT will die a similar death (Assuming it’s even brought up for a vote).
That’s how they roll. The next two years will be even worse. The two after that will make the Bush years seem like the Good Old Days.
FlipYrWhig
@NR:
Are you suggesting that senators would have preferred it _not_ to be deficit-neutral, if not for Obama’s say-so?
Christin
I’m really thrilled that the same stupid fucked up bullshit about blaming Obama for everything the GOP assholes do – get the first comment spot in this diary. Along with the usual dailykostediousmeme “Obama is A Republican in Sheep’s Clothing” so he wanted the filthy rich to get their tax cuts and he hates the middle class.
I thought that cancer was contained over there. Guess it got boring and it’s going to spice up and poison it over now.
And no, this ain’t about cheerleading. It’s about stupid ass bullshit me first comments that make no sense.
God I hate the Senate but not as much as I hate the rules about the Senate. Did Bush not get what he wanted when the R’s held it? Maybe not. Huge things we wanted to do never happened I guess.
FlipYrWhig
@General Stuck: Meh, he has some trolling habits (like belligerence and ad hominem tendencies), but he actually has views underneath it all that he wants to advocate and defend. He’s not Uncle Clarence Thomas, who’s pure troll, or Joe Beese, who doesn’t really want to engage.
Anya
@NR: You think the media would not have covered this like mad and asked him about it everytime he made an announcement? It would have been about Lieberman 24/7 and you know it.
Anya
@Ailuridae: Yet one would think “progressives” would value facts, istead of blind hate.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: Don’t defend me to that ignorant POS Stuck.
FlipYrWhig
@Christin: There’s a center-right Democratic bloc that sometimes swings Republican on issues that can be tagged as “national security” or “tax and spend.” When Bush could reach them, he got what he wanted; when he couldn’t, he had a much harder time. That’s why he got wars and the creation of DHS and tax cuts, but not Social Security privatization. And when it comes to Bush getting all he wanted, let’s not forget that he lost _his_ own party on immigration.
General Stuck
@FlipYrWhig:
He can bullshit a little better than the others, but it is still all canned dogma. Arising from polemic pathological Obama hatred/ Someday, when I’m feeling a little bit evil, I will drag up some goldy oldy’s from the primary campaign in the bj acrhives.
Karen
@Anya:
Are there two Anyas?
This seems like a FB comment or even worse, a GOS comment. But you say you’re not a FB. Was the Manchurian fraud your comment? I am very confused.
Christin
@NR:
Ugh. Your first comment was tame compared to all your other insults. What an arrogant ass.
But please, don’t let me interrupt your endless whine about how Obama failed you in the past hour.
General Stuck
@Karen:
snark
FlipYrWhig
@Karen: Parody, I think.
FlipYrWhig
@General Stuck: I wasn’t around for Primary Wars.
Pangloss
@BGinCHI: This. I vote for McConnell– would love to see him in the fetal position, crying in the corner of the shower.
WyldPirate
@FlipYrWhig: @FlipYrWhig:
OK….It appears there is a bit of dispute from what I’ve found so far. I’m pretty sure Obama endorsed Lieberman over Lamont in the primary now. That’s cool even though he is a snake.
My apologies if I was wrong. I wasn’t intentionally trying to misled anyone and I tried to check first before I made the claim.
I didn’t check the bottom of the page unit you asked for a link. The links I first used are below with relevant paragraphs.
Top Lieberman Campaign Official: We Begged Obama For Help In 2006 — And He Came Through
Specifically, a top official on Joe Lieberman’s 2006 Senate reelection campaign tells me that Lieberman’s staff practically begged Barack Obama to come in and endorse him at a critical moment — requests that Obama agreed to, helping Lieberman minimize the damage from challenger Ned Lamont’s recent entry into the contest.
This back-story is particularly relevant right now in light of Lieberman’s harsh assaults on Obama’s national security credentials.
The top Lieberman official, who was directly involved in securing Obama’s help, tells me that the campaign was desperate for Obama to come to Connecticut in March of 2006, soon after Lamont entered the race.
“We needed him to strongly validate us as a candidate that liberal Democrats should not desert,” the official tells me. “We went to the Obama operation with a very urgent plea for him to come out for us.”
I went back and re-read the whole TPM piece again and the following was at the bottom:
Late Update: Story edited to remove references to Obama’s general election behavior, which is disputed, and to Obama’s alleged viewing of Lieberman as a “mentor” — in fact, mentors are assigned in the Senate.
Late Late Update: After endorsing Lieberman in the primary, Obama endorsed Lamont in the general election, gave $5,000 to Lamont’s campaign and sent out a fundraising email for him, but didn’t campaign for him, which was a big disappointment to the Lamont forces.
Late Late Update: A Lamont campaign official emails to say that Obama’s fundraising email actually only went out to a few hundred people.
Meanwhile, an official from Lieberman’s campaign emails this quasi-confirmation: “Senator Lieberman asked Senator Obama to come to the Connecticut JJB dinner at the request of the Connecticut Democratic Party. A campaign staffer may have asked for an endorsement, but Senator Lieberman did not.”
Late Late Late Update: Markos — a Lamont and Obama supporter — adds some more back-story and some tough criticism of Obama’s treatment of the Connecticut race
There was also this link which I misread the date–it was Obama endorsing Lieberdouche in the primary.
Again, my apologies if I was wrong. I wasn’t intentionally trying to misled anyone and I tried to check first before I made the claim.
General Stuck
@FlipYrWhig:
makes now seem like tea with the queen
Jules
Jesus, not the “Obama hates the middle class” shit again…..
Anya
@Karen: That was my best imitation of a typical dailyfox, I mean dkos commenter.
EDIT: I think the Kenyan part might be too much. It’s becoming really hard to tell the difference between FB and TB.
Christin
@FlipYrWhig:
thank you for that explanation and the “calm down”. I can’t seem to write a post ever that does not contain typos and grammatical errors. When I wrote “did not get what we wanted” I meant “did not get what HE wanted”. And yes – I was specifically talking about SS and what he wanted to do with it. So thanks for that.
I am getting sick of being a Democrat to the point where I am just disengaging way too much. We have too many factions of us in the Senate and the G’s are just lockstep paper clips. Anyway, I was miserable for too many years and can’t do this again. And won’t. Watching Cole do into some kinda manic depressive state (his words) was proof of what i’m saying. Someone in that thread posted “if you’re not outrage you’re not paying attention. ” I can’t keep living like that. I see what crazy outrage and misery and seething anger have done to the other blog. It’s a dark seething hole of despair there that I ran from.
Let me revise that. It’s not that I’m disengaging – it’s that I can’t I go around ready to have a thrombosis when life is so fucking short it’s gone in the blink of an eye. You can be involved and try to make a change without being a fucking outrage like some crazy ass hash brown.
I am disengaging from assholes on the internet.
And I completely agree with the term Liberal Teabagger and don’t give a rat’s ass who tells me to fuck off when I use it.
And now I feel much better.
Again . Thanks for your explanation. It was great.
Karen
@Anya:
Thank you for the explaination. Some of the comments I’ve heard are at the GOS and FB are really evil so I’m afraid my snark o meter is totally non-existent.
FlipYrWhig
@General Stuck: Ironically, during the primaries I was driven off GOS by the unrelenting arrogance and obnoxiousness of the Obama advocates. I even went over to Corrente for a while. I don’t remember when I started hanging out here.
WyldPirate
@FlipYrWhig:
I just made a long post with the links I originally got my info from. For some reason, it went into moderation.
I don’t have time now, to re-work as I have something that will occupy my time for about an hour. However, it appears that I may be wrong given the reference I used because I didn’t read the updates at the bottom. It will become clear when it comes out of moderation. If I don’t get back to you within a couple of hours, I ‘ll redirect you back to this thread and the sources I used.
My apologies. I looked before I made the claim initially. It’s not my style to intentionally mislead people.
Martin Gifford
@FlipYrWhig:
If I was a Democratic senator, I would laugh at anything Obama asks me to do, then do whatever I wanted to do. What does that tell you?
Your arguments are always the same. The president can’t do anything because of the political climate or because of some political reality regarding an issue. But the political climate or political reality is the way it is because of the weakness of past Democrats and of this president now.
In politics, if you don’t fight, you lose. And the fight has got to be consistent, strong, and intelligent. We have zero evidence of that from this president. He is the leader, and he is to blame. If he fought hard for the entire length of his presidency, then he couldn’t be blamed. But he has not fought at all and he has not been intelligent – no strategies, just emergency tactics of minimal survival. So he is to blame.
Ailuridae
@Pangloss:
What is up with some of your and your weird male rape fantasies?
General Stuck
@Martin Gifford:
And you, are quite full of shit. Fight that
Suck It Up!
@Christin:
Someone gave regular Obama supporters (ex. John Cole) “permission” to rail on him for the past few days and in doing so they disturbed the nest of regular Obama haters. They have been out in full force doing a recruitment drive for the crestfallen. There is a true progressive waiting in the wings somewhere to primary Obama and that person will need supporters.
Concerned Citizen
All the Bush tax cuts should expire. Not just those on the rich.
General Stuck
@FlipYrWhig:
LoL. quite the journey you’ve had. What matters is where we are today, and I for one am glad you landed here.
Anya
@Karen: I haven’t been reading lately because the level of toxicity is unbearable. Did they settle on a primary challenger, yet?
Christin
@NR: ]
Oh color me surprised.
The LiberalTeabagger is on a roll.
Christin
@NR: ]
Oh color me surprised.
The LiberalTeabagger is on a roll.
Martin Gifford
@General Stuck:
No. With a comment like that I’ll just presume you are drunk on Christmas sherry this Saturday night.
General Stuck
@Christin:
Idiot doesn’t know the senate has pay go rule
General Stuck
@Martin Gifford:
That’s what I thought. Progressive tough guys. Won’t fight even safe and snug at home in their jammies. A huff and puff and they fly away to the fainting couch.
Peter
@JoePo: I wouldn’t say Russ is the problem in the Democratic caucus, but I sure am sick of of Russ Feingold shitting the bed on real issues that matter to real people. Standing up for what you believe in is nice and all, but when the result is actual legislation moving further to the right, I can’t consider that a good progressive move.
magisterludi
@Seebach:
Too true (sigh), too true.
Fat Tony
Gosh, between the Obama ball-washers, and those who have lost all faith in him, it’s getting harder and harder to read this site.
Corner Stone
@Suck It Off!:
Awesome. This is full of awesomesauce.
Corner Stone
@Fat Tony: Maybe we should have Bart make you a cocktail to sooth your nerves?
General Stuck
@Fat Tony:
Then don’t
DougW
I hope that this tax cut for the rich fails. If I have to pay a bit more to save billions in cuts for the “upper crust”, so be it. I don’t have a lot left after my paycheck, but I’ll be damned if the wealthiest 2 or 3 percent can’t sacrifice for the poor and unemployed.
Class warfare? Yes, but it’s Republicans and Conservatives that are waging the war. The rest of us have to deal with it…
Fat Tony
@General Stuck:
kthanxbi
General Stuck
@Fat Tony:
bye
General Stuck
Okay, when is the Obot night shift going to show up.
I need to shower and shit
And these trolls ain’t gonna to spank themselves
tony
@Fat Tony: hope you have clogged arteries fat tony
Martin Gifford
@General Stuck:
I wrote an intelligent and insightful 156 word comment that should move the discussion forward, and you reply with:
When I declined, you wrote:
Presumably you wrote that while looking at your reflection in your shiny bottle of Christmas sherry.
Meanwhile, I am waiting excitedly for FlipYrWhig’s thoughtful reply to my comment addressed to him.
Anya
@General Stuck: I’ll hold the fort until you return.
Corner Stone
@Martin Gifford:
Good luck with that. I expect more of the same.
Somehow the most powerful man on the planet is powerless.
Sloegin
Let the whole thing die already.
We go back to Clinton tax rates.
We go back to having estate taxes.
It’s not like we were all, ‘Oi’!
These terrible terrible tax rates!
Oh how we suffer!
We still pay a lot less than our parents ever did.
We’re a bunch of weenies.
nitpicker
@JoePo: “Feingold opposes constitutional amendment to overturn SCOTUS (Citizens United) decision”
“Feingold Will Vote Against Financial Services Reform Bill”
“Feingold’s votes support maverick label“
General Stuck
@Martin Gifford:
Bwwwaa hahahahahhhahahhahahhha!
You wrote a word salad of left wing memes with barely concealed right wing framing for an inadequate black man. Your scree was devoid of substance and not a hint of insight into the nuances and inner workings of politics and governance, and not a clue of the concept of separation of powers and what that means.
You fuckers write about fighting, but never bother to describe exactly how, other than what Obama has been doing. It is you and me jackass, that are supposed to do the knife fighting for the president of our party. And senators and congresscritters, pundits, and liberal candlestick makers. You want Obama to act like a thug, a Bush like thug. That even Bush didn’t act like overtly, in public. He had a army of loyal and courageous supporters who kicked ass, day in and day out, taking no prisoners. Of course they were insane, like all the wingnuts are these days, but THEY DID NOT SPEND EVERY WAKING HOUR HAMMERING THEIR PRESIDENT TO DO SOMETHING HE CAN’T and that is be an asshole in chief on public teevee. Especially, with his particular skin color.
There is nothing inciteful nor intelligent about your wanking, nor any of the other firebaggers. Your drivel is shot thu with self adornment and reverence of being smarter than us slavish dolts, who don’t jump ship while you spend all day screaming for somebody to do something.
And since Obama is the most visible, you assign him expectations of a dictator in a goddamn democracy. And spend zero time attacking the wingnuts, and organizing to attack the wingnuts, like they do us all day every day.
You want to be useful, call up your dem senators every day and tell them you support progressive legislation and will support them if they support you. Organize rallies, carrying signs of truth about the right wing in this country, call into Cspan and speak your mind about the threats the right wing poses. And for gawd sake, quit spouting canned Obama fail propaganda on mother fucking blogs.
JC
Christin,
Yes, I saw that too. The fact that the law didn’t pass, when voted for by the House, and by 53 in the Senate, and Obama has been stating THIS bill, as his consistent preference for six months, it is Obama’s fault the vote failed. Because you know, he didn’t use his Green Lantern ring.
Sometimes I think some of these ‘Obama isn’t liberal enough’ types are simply here to sow disorder. Definitely HR’s take doesn’t match reality.
So, now, what happens?
I would like the same vote to be taken, day in and day out, day in and day out, but I’ve been told that isn’t practical.
It’s been nice seeing Democrats continue to castigate the Rethugs though.
I hope the taxes expire, myself. Funny enough, it was Bush’s first election that ‘awoke’ me to how screwed up the dialog in this country is. Bush’s economic plan was an obvious lie, but no one wanted to report on it. And then of course the continued pushing of Rethug memes during the election, and the SC so quickly overturning the continued counting of the vote. And THEN the ‘economic plan’, of the tax cut, that anyone with sense knew was going to do what it did, to the deficit.
I REALLY don’t want Obama to validate ten year old policy malpractice started by Bush.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
I don’t understand why they don’t let President Obama at least pretend to be a good man.
Martin Gifford
@General Stuck:
To Obama, separation of powers means kicking progressive Democrats and bending over backwards for Blue Dogs.
Consistently argue for what is true and ethical, apply pressure, use political strategies against the Republicans rather than to accommodate the Republicans, etc. Essentially, Obama should be creating a counter-narrative to the security state and neoclassical economic ideology, but he is, instead, supporting that Republican narrative and fitting himself into it by becoming a war criminal and a supporter of corporate corruption himself.
That depends on what he wants and what he intends to do. He shouldn’t be enabled to do the wrong things by us.
He is being an asshole in chief, imo – lying, war, allowing America to slide further down the cliff, etc. But you lean a little more to the right than I do, which means you lean a way more to the right than the sane democratic countries of the planet. He doesn’t have to be an asshole. He just has to be consistent, honest, rational, and ethical. You might take a hit in the short-term, but that’s how you turn the political climate around in the long-term.
That would be like attacking people in an insane asylum. You’ve got to speak to the sane people and the authorities in charge, not attack the victims. Obama is the main authority, and he is creating more insanity in the future by failing to lead, and his defenders are enabling this, so I’m speaking to them here. Tomorrow’s reality is being created by Obama and his enablers today.
Chuck Butcher
I’ll say it again over here, no matter how the tax cut thing is done it affects 98% and that makes the math pretty simple. I don’t think the Ds are willing to find out how blame for a raise on that percentage is apportioned.
There is an aspect of leaving things for the last moment, your room for maneuver is reduced until it vanishes. There’s plenty of blame to pass around in the Ds for this, all of them. It is one of the stories of the last year, give the other side all the rope it needs to hang us.
This argument around here about this makes Harley and other play times seem a lot more reasonable than giving a damn about this. I don’t even much blame the politicians for where we’ve gotten to, the electorate after all chose them. The mid-terms not two years after the crash are an indicator of more than D inability to message over the last year. I don’t know if all the damage to my ability to make a living has been done or not, it is close enough that much more isn’t all that much and what the Rs do to further fuck things up probably won’t get to me too badly.
There seems to be some dichotomy demanded around here, either the Pres is perfect or he’s a total fuck up. That’s as stupid as it gets, he’s done a pretty damn good job and screwed up really badly on a couple things. He’s had all kinds of help in both respects.
Criticizing and pushing the President and other representatives is an important function of their supporters, as well as cheerleading. You couldn’t tell it.
Corner Stone
@Uncle Clarence Thomas: Tell us more Uncle Clarence Thomas. How are they not letting Obama at least pretend to be a good man?
Uncle Clarence Thomas
@Corner Stone:
.
.
Oh, FlipYrHag has proved conclusively that it was a nationwide “psycho sexual” phenomenon.
.
.
Corner Stone
@Chuck Butcher:
I disagree. There’s a dichotomy alright. But no one expects the President to be perfect. At the same time, his most slavish supporters can’t stand any kind of criticism. No matter the level or accuracy.
Yutsano
@Chuck Butcher:
Wow. So he’s been a normal human President with all the normal human failings we all deal with day after day. IIRC, that’s exactly who I voted for. I knew Obama wouldn’t be perfect, I knew he would do things to piss me off, I knew he would let me down in other areas. But his overall performance in a very tough time for the country has been pretty damn good. I never thought I would see us get closer to honest health care. I never thought we’d stop pursuing stupid wars. In those two senses, Obama has been great. I also thought the criminals from the last administration would pay for their injustices. I also hoped the worst extremities of the terrorist state would be dialed back. Those are my two huge let downs. But I’ve always seen Obama as the flawed human he is. And even regarding that, he ain’t doing half bad.
@Corner Stone:
You know, you are sardonically evil sometimes. I kinda like it.
Chuck Butcher
@Corner Stone:
Mayhap I exaggerate slightly. Point stands as you make it with a bit of help, there is as much a faction that makes only criticism and outlandish, at that.
Corner Stone
@Uncle Clarence Thomas: Well, FlipYrWhig is still busy wiping the psychosexual smegma off his face.
But I did find it hilarious that someone had to “allow” Cole and his dogs “off their leash” to criticize the President.
Christin
@Suck It Up!:
thank you. for making me laugh. never an easy task lately.
that being said, the candidate the far left is pushing lately is Dennis K.
so help me go, they are fucking insane. and i say that as Dennis K supporter. Yes. I think he’s great. as a preznit candidate? holy mother of god. yet they are serious.
i think the far left does not care if a D wins. they hate everyone’s guts. they have made me, someone who used to say i’m far to the left, cringe at that label in the past year and I now say I’m a liberal democrat, the end.
Jeff
Well, looks like we get either some form of a tax cut attached with unemployment insurance extension, or Obama lets them expire.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/04/obama-tells-dems-hell-opp_n_792086.html
Obama Tells Dems He’ll Oppose Tax Cut Deal Without Unemployment Benefits, Other Relief
Of course I’m guessing this won’t satisfy some people, I have to assume because they think it’s more important to make sure the wealthy don’t get a tax cut than unemployment people get their insurance.
Or they think we can get unemployment insurance extension some other way. I’d sure love to know that’s possible.
Corner Stone
Oh well.
Christin
@General Stuck:
:-) you funny. that is a compliment of the highest order.
priscianus jr
@Judas Escargot:
Corner Stone
@Chuck Butcher: I disagree with your false equivalence. If that is what I am reading.
The majority of people who have a criticism have tried to make it on solid, specific grounds.
Those who slavishly defend, don’t give a good God Damn what the situation is. They attack full froth to shut it down.
That’s IMO.
Christin
@Martin Gifford:
Jesus fucking christ, are the portals to post the stupid at firedoglake and daily kos closed for the fucking holidays or something?
Yes. Obama hates you Progressives so much. Blah blah blah. Get over it.
Asshole in chief? War criminal? Idiot. Juvenile chicken shit comment. But thank you, I shall hold you up as an example of a Liberal Teabagger Gone Batshit over the edge.
FlipYrWhig
@Martin Gifford: Sorry, was trying to rake leaves in the near-dark.
@Martin Gifford:
It tells me that you have a good sense of what it takes to be a typical Democratic senator. They do that, all the time, regardless of who is president. They criticize and backbite and pop off to the press about everything that’s being done wrong. Then when the time comes to do something better, they run and hide in a corner. Look up Nunn, Sam, and Campbell, Ben Nighthorse.
What’s the “fight”? I feel like people want to say that Obama hasn’t fought, and as proof of his non-fighting point to non-successes, and retrospectively say that if non-fighting leads to non-success, that fighting must lead to success. But I don’t really know what the “fight” would look like. He gave hundreds of speeches about HCR and has spoken consistently about the stupidity of giving tax cuts to rich people. He has brought DADT repeal to the point where the only thing stopping it is obvious douchebaggery and hypocrisy on the part of John McCain and others. I guess those don’t count as “fighting,” but I’m not sure what you think “fighting” _would_ look like, or if any president has actually done it to your satisfaction. You might point to the LBJ arm-twisting tales, but that was before Republicans became nihilists and shed their residual sense of shame.
I feel like I shouldn’t have to keep saying this, but I don’t think that “fighting,” whatever it would look like, is A Bad Thing. I think that it has risks and costs, however. Some of the risk is that fighting _and losing_ is horrifically bad in politics. The media doesn’t report such losses as moral victories, they count them as damaging losses. Progressive people say that they would respect fighting and losing, but look at the DADT battle, where the Democrats refused to back down, put Republicans on the spot, lost… and got flayed for a week by LGBT activists anyway. Furthermore, with the tantalizingly close “filibuster-proof” majority, he has been in a position where upsetting even a single senator might make the whole agenda collapse in a fit of pique. Then an additional problem nearly unique to Obama is that part of his persona is that he is the level-headed guy who brings people together, so scorching the earth in the service of getting an agenda item passed might damage his long-term standing with the huge number of people who like Obama but don’t hold anything like the political views we have.
So to undertake a “fight” that has a shape different from the kinds of things he _has_ done has a lot of risks and downside associated with it. It still might be a good idea to do it anyway, especially in the new congressional session where there’s little hope of accomplishing anything no matter how nice anyone is to anyone else.
I just want people around here to realize that a fight that took the form of more personal challenges and more heated and adversarial rhetoric, which would be immensely gratifying for _us_ to watch, is not a no-lose proposition. I’ve made this comparison before, but IMHO it’s kind of like balancing the righteous thrill of quitting your sucky job in spectacular fashion, on the one hand, and staring down the prospect of being out of work for a long time, on the other.
The fight would please us. I’m not excluding myself; I think Republican politicians are evil bastards and I love to see them flutter and squawk when Democrats call them out. But the vast majority of voters are not like us. Republicans, well, I have no hope that they ever act decent, so nothing much will ever persuade a Republican to support Obama.
But just to the left of the Republicans is a big group, a group that sometimes votes for Democrats and probably voted for Obama, and some of them were polled recently and said that they wouldn’t mind seeing a primary challenge to Obama _from the right_, and whatever strategy Obama takes up has to take into account the effects it would have on _that group_, not just progressive/liberal/political junkies like us. I think that group would not respond well to the “fight” strategy. Democrats have an irksome number of gradations from left to right, and there are a lot more to the right end than we always realize. I think that group produces Blue Doggery and all the harm done from that approach to being a Democrat. Lose that group, though, and you end up with Toomeys instead of Specters, and while no one loves Specter, he’s a damn sight better than Toomey.
My off-the-wall prediction: if Palin wins the Republican nomination, and Obama is the Democratic nominee, look for a Bloomberg/Crist run.
Chuck Butcher
@Corner Stone:
I gave you most of your point and there is plenty enough of the other that I’m not making a false equiv.
Corner Stone
@Chuck Butcher: How does one stay on a roof in weather determined to keep one off of it?
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: Seriously, dude, what the fuck was that? After a day of taking your same old tired-ass bitchery seriously?
Chuck Butcher
@Corner Stone: One does what is required. Proper foot wear and roof jack planks, this is an 8/12. Dress warm, expect to suffer. I just finished another 2 story 8/12 in as bad or worse conditions.
I have no sense.
FlipYrWhig
@Chuck Butcher: How do you get a guy to go up on a roof and stay there for a long, long time without food or internet access? It’s, um, for a friend.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: If you want to complain to me that’s fine. You and I can wank til the cows come home.
But don’t defile me by talking about me 3rd person to the ignorant jackasses here.
Chuck Butcher
@FlipYrWhig:
Trying to recap the false steps of the last year would be endlessly tiring and I’m not sure scorched earth works well, either. It can in certain situations and could have a couple times, but it is ordinarily an invitation to the making of more enemies than you started with. But there is also an issue of giving the messaging over to the GOP and that has really sucked in results. The Ds once again put themselves in the position of defending instead of defining and you lose from there.
Chuck Butcher
@FlipYrWhig:
What the hell are you looking for a Santa? I’m way too expensive for your budget and beard and hair don’t make up for skinny.
General Stuck
Don’t give me that “why can’t we properly criticize the president” horseshit. And then there are those fucking obots who worship Obama all the time. It is a low rent bait and switch. There is and has been quite a lot of critique on Obama, in perspective, and even from me. You who say not are black fucking liars. This is about nihilist jackal trolls who smear, every fucking thread, lie, every fucking thread. Every thing you do here is for the sake of some false meme weaving. Then the meme is when somebody calls you on it, another false meme is made about Obama worshipers. This is about A DEM PRESIDENT IN THE WH, WHO HAPPENS TO BE OBAMA. You know who you are , and the apologists wankers know who they are. I think most of it is pure racism, personally, but that is just me. go to hell and do not pass go.
Karen
@General Stuck:
I’ve noticed that rhetoric has been ratcheted up and it’s more than the regular “I hate Obama” stuff from Corner Stone and company. I disagree with them on many things but what they say they hate about Obama is what they feel he does or doesn’t do. They haven’t been saying the racist, misogynistic, homophobic crap I’ve seen for the past few days.
I like it here but it seems like it’s getting really ugly and I hate that.
Corner Stone
@Karen: You’re hilarious. See any PUMA’s coming for you round the corner?
Devon
@General Stuck:
So do I. Gettin’ bad out there. Worse than usual. On some of the big blogs we’re getting banned all over the place for speaking up about WP.
Chuck Butcher
@General Stuck: If you’d bother with the “reply” button it would be clear who the fuck it is you’re ranting at this time. Since you’re damn near as reflexively defensive as the obnoxiously critical it’s a tad difficult to take your panties being in a wad seriously. It certainly hasn’t been more than a couple days since you asserted that all you’re about is defeating the GOP scum. I think there’s a bit more to it than that and it includes slamming my own side for fuck ups.
General Stuck
@Karen:
what, you think cause they took a break, then it is over and never happened? Is that how you view racist speech? Just a little slipup? it never happened and doesn’t exist. here is a clue for you, and all the others that patronize these jackals. when you say racist things, then are most likely a racist. whether it is said only on tuesday’s and friday’s makes no difference. and i am not saying it all comes from there, it is the incessant lying that has been going on here for three years now, wingnut grade lying from people who claim to be democrats, and expect to be treated as such. There purpose is not honest debate, it is destruction, blog destruction, because they can. All the racial and truly poisonous stuff came out in the open because Cole opened pandora’s box with a string of brain dead firebagger posts and it simply released them to let their freak flags fly.
Instead of it cloaked in faux concern. It will only get worse, unless Cole either converts the blog to something other than politics, or shuts it down altogether. Or, he starts imposing some rules. Those are the choices, otherwise, BJ will be an appendage of the GOS before 2012/
I really hate sounding like a demagogue, i am not that way in real life, but maybe have gotten too attached to this blog.
That is just my opinion, to be taken with whatever you want to take it with.
General Stuck
@Chuck Butcher:
bullshit Butcher, you are as nuts as the rest of the firebaggers, maybe more so, since you aren’t even a liberal. I think you are just pissed you let yourself vote for a black man, when you didn’t really want to. None of your so called critique of Obama has made a damn bit of sense, for the past two years. I don’t care what you think.
Chuck Butcher
@General Stuck:
You’ve really let yourself get somewhere pretty close to hysterical, here. For the past three days I’ve followed this pretty damn close because I have time and I’m bored and there is about the same quota of crazy/troll going on and about the same level of bs as ever. It always seems to fluctuate around here and go on couple day runs with particular trolls. There has always (years anyhow) been an anti-authoritarian streak to this place and that will still get you when your “side” is in the chairs.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
@Corner Stone:
.
.
You know, “they”. From what I have learned here, President Obama is helpless and must do what “they” force him to do. I sure am glad “they” are not after me.
.
.
General Stuck
@Chuck Butcher:
I see it different
Chuck Butcher
@General Stuck: Thank you I appreciate not being lumped in with liberal an entirely too weak a tea for me. As for the black thing, I’ll allow senility on your part to explain that remark. If you’d like to take it farther than that, feel free but I’ve had your shit.
matoko_chan
Hai.
im krunk so i naturally have the perfect game theoretic solition to this.
tit-for-tat.
Pres O lests the tax cuts expire.
then he says loudly and repeatedly preferably on tv that he will support middle-class taxcuts, but not rich fucker tax cuts.
have the dems draft a bill to do just that.
and let the refuglicans filibuster that bill.
over and out.
Corner Stone
@Uncle Clarence Thomas: I’m never sure why they force President Obama to do those things.
I had hoped you could help explain it to me.
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
you’re problem is that you are overly sensitive and you want to drop the race card because your defense of Obama otherwise is usually groundless.
there are a shitload of people just like you here.
what will be interesting is when Obama hard tacks to the right the next two years. he is about to pull a big time clinton triangulation act. you will have an even more difficult time defending him. you think you’ve been busy the last six months? you haven’t seen anything yet.
General Stuck
@Chuck Butcher:
Dude, the sentiment is mutual. I take back nothing and my remarks were cyrstal clear, no further explaination necessary.. And shove the senility shit up your ass , so far the sun won’t find it. I am the same age as you. So there, everything is cool. It’s out in the open. needed to be.
Bob Loblaw
@Yutsano:
We haven’t. The ability of the press to completely whitewash the entire Afghanistan war from the nation’s collective thinking is to be admired for its unprecedented skill, though.
@Christin:
Yes. That’s generally the word one uses to describe heads-of-state who authorize the use of cluster bombs (which 99% of the world have banned in the first place) on civilian populations in pursuit of a terrorist group that formed five full years after 9/11, under the legal authority of a force resolution that is so hideously broad that every other Western court system would invalidate it in a heartbeat. But man, any time you can fry up a couple dozen Yemeni kids in the middle of the night to “fight terrorism,” you gotta do it.
Never forget what a soulless enterprise the national security state remains under Obama. The global war on terror is indifferent and unshakable.
As for the rest of this thread, I have no idea why so many out there are so dedicated to the proposition that Obama secretly loves to help rich people. He doesn’t, he takes an entirely dispassionate view of income inequality in this country perhaps, but he certainly doesn’t favor the upper levels whatsoever.
He wants to raise their taxes, he has always said as much, and there is no reason to doubt him. It’s the technocratic move. He isn’t going to preserve the uppermost cuts out of malice, just the usual incompetence of his party. They had an ironclad timeframe to work out their schedule and their strategy on the matter, and being the perpetual fuckups they are, they waited until the last minute instead.
It’s a story of institutional stupor and incoherence in the face of well-honed tactical specialists with the mightiest corporate messaging machine ever built on their side. I’m sorry to those who wish there was more intrigue and betrayal and other stirring moral narratives, but there really is nothing more to see here than what meets the eye.
This site is really going to the dogs with the pitched tribal nonsense, though. The midterm looks to have fucked you guys all up. Which is weird, because the result shouldn’t have been a surprise if you were paying attention to the right indicators. The next year on this site will be, if anything, worse I guess. Y’all need the cleansing power of the Palin to heal this bullshit…
Odie Hugh Manatee
@FlipYrWhig:
I’m beginning to miss those good ol’ days. If you have the pie filter, CS should be describing eating shit pie in every comment they make. They’ve been reliably anti-Obama from the start.
Engaging CS just isn’t worth it. It’s better to pound your head to a bloody pulp against a brick wall.
General Stuck
This blog is now a blog that tolerates racist speech without a word spoken by the blog owner or front pagers. both coded and not. If there was any doubt about that, the past few days have confirmed it, as a regular course, by regular commenters. If I wanted that, I would sign up at No Quarter and get the good stuff. I hope this changes here.
Chuck Butcher
@General Stuck: You really ought to have some kind of life outside your dog and computer. You’re a pathetic persona, whiny and passive aggressive by turns. You’re quite happy to make up shit out of whole cloth about people you don’t agree with. President Obama is scarcely the first black politician I have actively helped and the list of as liberal as possible Democrats I’ve helped is pretty good. If you think Wyden and Merkely aren’t as liberal as could get elected in OR I don’t what the fuck you think. Maybe you’d like to contrast your lot?
You shit on yourself with this kind of crap, not me. I will admit to a couple prejudices, I don’t like stupid and I loath liars – like yourself. I told you to go ahead and take this where you wanted, back up the racist horseshit. You can’t but I’d like you to try and thus demonstrate yourself as what you are … a pathetic old man sliding into senility without the redemption of having a life.
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
that’s just bullshit, stuck.
Chuck Butcher
@WyldPirate: Either Stuck is off meds or seniltiy is knocking…
General Stuck
@Chuck Butcher:
LOL, Butcher, your lame insults and wanking just are not worth a response, and I am not even going to bother to send them back as a backatcha. it would just be a repeat of all the other times we have traded that bullshit on this blog. I am just done with all that. If I hit a nerve, you might want to look into it.
edit – maybe your new friend wildy can help you out.
Bob Loblaw
@General Stuck:
They came in and trashed the place. And it wasn’t their place. It was never their place.
This blog is not your home. I’m sorry that your real life is so unfulfilled, but you need to let this go. Because if you had any self-awareness, you’d realize that if Cole was to purge this site of the cancer that is allegedly plaguing it, you’d be out on your ass with WyldPirate, matoko_chan, Uncle Clarence Thomas (for my money, the worst offender), etc. too.
You have no purpose except to settle random grudges and peddle random, invective-laden bullshit. And you’re an integral part of the problem you continually rail about.
Edit: Why is post #237 in moderation? This site redesign can’t come soon enough…
Odie Hugh Manatee
@General Stuck:
WHAP!
That’s gonna leave a mark. Ok, it would leave a mark if what you hit wasn’t as dense as depleted uranium.
Nice shot though.
Christin
@JC:
Hi – I just wanted to you to know how perfect your post was. I wasn’t going to say anything. My big bitchfest about this commenting here is the formatting of it all and how hard it is to thank someone and have them even see it so most times I don’t but I’m making an effort to change that it case you do it if this makes sense.
General Stuck
@Bob Loblaw:
And they start coming out of the woodwork, just like clockwork. Your personal attacks are wasted on a false persona on the internet. Do the world a favor, save it for the republicans.
Chuck Butcher
@General Stuck: Anything else is always worth your time, no matter how stupid, maybe lonely senile old doggy man is too apt a description? Don’t want to play you useless fuck? C’mon, you seriously want to toss racist jabs out there and not play? You can say any goddam thing that pleases you but go cry when you get hit back? That’s just a whiny puke at work. C’mon motherfucker, back up your shit. Ooooh not dignifiable with a response … what you’re another John Ensign? You think that flies anywhere other than in your imagination? Back up your horseshit or go to bed labeled a lying sack of pathetic shit.
WyldPirate
@Chuck Butcher:
You know, CB, I don’t think it’s either one really.
I really think that it is a case of people just being really passionate about their positions and being frustrated in general with the situation in the country and the situation within the Democratic party.
I kind of liken it to having a spouse or significant other cheating on you and you’re in denial about in many ways or something somewhat similar to an alcoholic in denial when first confronted with the issue. One ends up having these raging mental battles in their mind and angrily denying what they can’t see before their very eyes. You get angry and lash out at people telling you things (or thinking things) that you don’t want to believe.
I mean shit, I used to drop by this blog years ago when Cole was still a Rethuglican. He was in deep denial at the time. I remember when I was that way two decades ago. I think that is what we are seeing in Stuck and several others. They just refuse to validate what are legitimate criticisms of Obama because their minds refuse to accept the evidence that validates the criticism.
General Stuck
Time to go. For all the shots to come over the evening, until whenever. no hard feelings, I probly deserve them.
Bob Loblaw
@Yutsano:
We haven’t. The ability of the press to completely whitewash the entire Afghanistan war from the nation’s collective thinking is to be admired for its unprecedented skill, though.
@Christin:
Yes. That’s generally the word one uses to describe heads-of-state who authorize the use of cluster bombs (which 99% of the world have banned in the first place) on civilian populations in pursuit of a terrorist group that formed five full years after 9/11, under the legal authority of a force resolution that is so hideously broad that every other Western court system would invalidate it in a heartbeat. But man, any time you can fry up a couple dozen Yemeni kids in the middle of the night to “fight terrorism,” you gotta do it.
Never forget what a soulless enterprise the national security state remains under Obama. The global war on terror is indifferent and unshakable.
___
As for the rest of this thread, I have no idea why so many out there are so dedicated to the proposition that Obama secretly loves to help rich people. He doesn’t, he takes an entirely dispassionate view of income inequality in this country perhaps, but he certainly doesn’t favor the upper levels whatsoever.
He wants to raise their taxes, he has always said as much, and there is no reason to doubt him. It’s the technocratic move. He isn’t going to preserve the uppermost cuts out of malice, just the usual incompetence of his party. They had an ironclad timeframe to work out their schedule and their strategy on the matter, and being the perpetual fuckups they are, they waited until the last minute instead.
It’s a story of institutional stupor and incoherence in the face of well-honed tactical specialists with the mightiest corporate messaging machine ever built on their side. I’m sorry to those who wish there was more intrigue and betrayal and other stirring moral narratives, but there really is nothing more to see here than what meets the eye.
This site is really going to the dogs with the pitched tribal nonsense, though. The midterm looks to have fucked you guys all up. Which is weird, because the result shouldn’t have been a surprise if you were paying attention to the right indicators. The next year on this site will be, if anything, worse I guess. Y’all need the cleansing power of the Palin to heal this bullshit something fierce…
General Stuck
@Chuck Butcher:
You sound hysterical Butcher. Why are you reacting like a crazy person? if there is nothing to it. If you knew you were going to vote for a republican, you would have voted for the white one..right?
Chuck Butcher
@General Stuck:
Then head on to beddie-bye labled a lying pathetic sack of shit you mother fucker. I give a fuck what your difficulty with life is, you get no free passes to lie about me and I will make sure it isn’t free. Make no mistake about it, I am a man about it all, I will admit my mistakes and I will go after you if you fuck with me. And you have just now.
Motherfucker, I will see you in hell before I let it go. I’ve paid some real serious prices in my life to have actual honor and you’re not a cent’s worth. So I will be seeing you around.
Chuck Butcher
@General Stuck: You are about as simple minded about a fucking joke as it gets. You don’t get the play on racism? Ah well, you are an asshole.
Chuck Butcher
@Chuck Butcher: That’s right, you live in one of them Confederate States with a bunch of worn out old white people don’t you? You’re a fool.
General Stuck
@Chuck Butcher:
I grew up in a war zone in the dark hollows of Appalachia. Your threats do not bother me one whit. But you are one crazy person.
wow
Chuck Butcher
@General Stuck:
NO you stupid fuck you don’t get to hang a lying insult on me free, ever. Fuck your hollows bub, I’ve live my entire life in one hard place or another and most of it doing hard dangerous work. I’ve lived in the next thing to ghettos with blacks that’d kick the shit out some snot nosed white punk and I was just another one of the boys because I don’t give a good damn about race beyond being infuriated by injustice in its name. You are a hollow thing, thrashing around for purpose and that’s pathetic.
Karen
@Corner Stone:
I thought I’d put aside that feud for now and I did give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren’t one of those “Now we can’t trust black people” commenters. I said that just because we don’t agree that doesn’t mean you’re not a decent person. I still believe that.
Stillwater
You are a hollow thing, thrashing around for purpose and that’s pathetic.
Poetic and accurate. Cosign!
Karen
@Chuck Butcher:
You on the other hand…for someone who doesn’t give a good damn about race you sure mention it a lot every time you talk about the latest horror that Obama has unleashed on the world.
Chuck Butcher
@Karen:
Care to back that up with just one block quote? I know Stuck has been fellating you lately, but you still have a brain – I assume?
General Stuck
@Chuck Butcher:
It is not me you are talking to , you are talking to a false persona on the internet for one purpose on this blog, to call it like it sees it concerning politics. you want to make it personal with threats of violence. then that is your choice. do what you need to about it.
done with your psycho ass.
Chuck Butcher
@Chuck Butcher:
Feel free to follow the name link to my blog and read the thing end to end and find something there as well.
Christin
@Bob Loblaw:
Uh no. This site is an oasis of sanity and brilliance compared to that Orange Sewer And FDL. Period.
As for the cluster bombs. Upsetting to read. Very.
Does not make Barack Obama a war criminal though.
And again – I am not going to hate till I pop like the LT’s do.
Refuse to live like that.
Chuck Butcher
@General Stuck: Violence? You certainly are a bit paranoid, which threat would that be? I said I wouldn’t let it go and I haven’t. You’re a lying fuckstick with no purpose in life, persona or otherwise. Frankly I give a shit which, I don’t hide or make shit up. I’m real easy to track, deliberately.
Karen
@General Stuck:
Whoa wait a minute, I didn’t say that there hadn’t been racist talk here before. I said that it’s been amplified, magnified. I was agreeing with what you said the motives were. You can’t see that?
Chuck Butcher
@General Stuck:
Really? heh.
Let me see if I get this little exercise on your part, I’m real and you’re a figment? You give yourself entirely too much credit and leeway to be liar there. No you see, you are exactly what you wrote because you came up with it. You really want to refer to me as psycho after that little exercise? You’re pathetic, you hide behind what you call an assumed persona to toss shit and then duck out as a figment? Goddam you’re a bigger PU55Y than I thought. All the courage of no convictions and no responsibility. You should seriously go hang your head…
Chuck Butcher
@Karen:
butt licking wear off did it? BTW, where’s the quote, bitch?
General Stuck
@Chuck Butcher:
You really don’t know anything about me or my life, not really, but like everything else, you think you know everything.. You’re a redneck clown from Oregon, who apparently thinks he’s some kind of liberal protector, or something. you have no honor dude, none. You have been lying about everything you have said on this blog. Mostly just to fuck with people, you show up every few weeks to unload that shit ton of rage you carry with you onto this blog. You need help, and it isn’t here. You can’t even own up to what you said here on this thread with a purely psychotic rant dripping with threat of violence. I said it was my opinion was you dumped Obama for racial reasons, that is my opinion. I own it and don’t take it back. People can think I’m full of shit, that is their choice, I make no apologies, and take none of it back. Your comments tonight show a time bomb bout to explode.
Karen
@Chuck Butcher:
If General Stuck is, what was the word you used, fellating me, you apparently haven’t figured out I have nothing for him to “fellate.”
You also didn’t read his last comment directed at me.
I’m not done with Balloon Juice but I’m done with this particular argument and rather than arguing passionately until 5 AM like I tend to do, I should probably just go to sleep.
Goodnight.
General Stuck
@Chuck Butcher:
This is who you really are Butcher. Case closed. Honor, my ass.
General Stuck
@Karen:
sorry if i misread your comment. was answering several others at the time.
FlipYrWhig
Are we still talking about politics?
Chuck Butcher
@General Stuck: She wants to ride along with your lies, she’s a bitch, or whatever. She can’t back her assertions any more than you can and that makes you both liars. Given the black font she’s as unreal as you.
Where’s the quote bitch? You too bitch Stuck?
You want to lie freely and act as though there’s some difference between you and the GOPers you profess to despise.
A redneck EastOregonian am I? hmmm. I like big guns, I like fast cars, and I like big Harleys and work in construction so I may not fit your neat little paradigm of a leftist gained from what, FDL? You pathetic shit living in such lonely isolation from the world that you can’t work up an understanding of what doesn’t fit nice neat boxes?
Yes you complete and entire dumbass, I may generally like and apporve of Obama and still have a real raging hard on for certain actions he takes. If he were an actual Jesus H Christ Almighty I’d be the same way, Fuck your over sensitive whiny ass, he’s made mistakes and I get to bitch and you get to put up with it without calling racism.
Chuck Butcher
@FlipYrWhig: You want to? Or do you want in this tiff between me and the lying Fuck…er… stuck?
Chuck Butcher
Oddly enough over the last two years the body that has fucked up the least has been the House Democrats and that group has paid the highest political price. It wasn’t the House that delayed ACA and gave the GOPers time to create a narrative, it wasn’t the House that delayed pretty much anything (well, the budget). The upshot of the delays and last minute pushes is that the GOPers got to set the definitions and left the Democrats defending rather than touting,
Nick
@WyldPirate:
you’re a fucking liar. He endorsed Lamont after he won the primary. Liar.
FlipYrWhig
@Chuck Butcher: Agreed. It’s a good thing the House doesn’t have a filibuster, though, or the Shuler/Ross Brigade would have done their damnedest to kill HCR. Stupak got close.
@Chuck Butcher: Thanks, I try to keep my distance from two guys standing toe to toe in a dive bar in a town I’m just visiting.
FlipYrWhig
@Nick: Scroll down, WP actually corrected himself later.
Chuck Butcher
@FlipYrWhig:
I’ll put up with an awful lot but some things ain’t gonna happen quietly.
The thing that makes me want to beat my head is one of the simplest rules of politics, you define and stay in action. You set the terms of the argument, you attack or tout, you do not defend. Defending puts you in second hearing and an impression is already implanted in the audience. The only exception is to lure the opponent into such a horrid position that you can nuke him from defense. Your word is first, your word is loudest, your word is most common.
That could have been done this mid-term and generally wasn’t. The results were that tax cuts turned into tax hikes, that health care turned into a socialist plot, that… ah hell, one of the most productive Congresses turned into a do-nothing. All from violating a first rule of propaganda.
Chuck Butcher
moderation hell for the s word
@FlipYrWhig:
I’ll put up with an awful lot but some things ain’t gonna happen quietly.
The thing that makes me want to beat my head is one of the simplest rules of politics, you define and stay in action. You set the terms of the argument, you attack or tout, you do not defend. Defending puts you in second hearing and an impression is already implanted in the audience. The only exception is to lure the opponent into such a horrid position that you can nuke him from defense. Your word is first, your word is loudest, your word is most common.
That could have been done this mid-term and generally wasn’t. The results were that tax cuts turned into tax hikes, that health care turned into a soshalist plot, that… ah hell, one of the most productive Congresses turned into a do-nothing. All from violating a first rule of propaganda.
Nick
@Chuck Butcher:
It is impossible to put Republicans on defense, simply because Republicans don’t have to defend themselves against anyone.
Chuck Butcher
@Nick:
This involves an idea that your strategy to win is based on what the other side has to say. It doesn’t matter what they say if you’re first, last and always on the move.
Chuck Butcher
The “nuke attack” is not one that works except in uncommon situations. Take Joe McCarthy, he went farther than was in his advantage until he finally got nuked. To a certain extent he got sucked into doing it.
I have a bit of a fear that this is the WH strategy, to suck them into an untenanle position while looking like the white knight. If that’s the plan I think it’s horridly risky on a lot of levels.
FlipYrWhig
@Chuck Butcher: I’m not going to disagree about what’s been going on — I just pin that incoherence and defensiveness on center-right Democrats in the House and especially the Senate, who like to act like dozens of little co-presidents. I think they think they’re savvier and more realistic than traditional Democrats, and so they backseat drive and make life complicated. And it’s very hard to corral them, because they believe pretty firmly that they are better served running _against_ traditional Democrats and presidents who get too liberal than they would be standing shoulder to shoulder with them.
So I think you’re right as far as what would be better for the Democratic party as a whole. I think if you asked people as disparate as Ben Nelson and Joe Manchin and Ron Wyden, they would all agree that Democrats would benefit from a single, cogent, coordinated voice, especially a tough one. But they wouldn’t agree on what they should be saying with that voice, and that’s where the whole thing degenerates.
Nick
@Chuck Butcher:
The other side doesn’t have to say nothing. That’s the point. Half the country would back them up if they ran on a platform of forcing children to eat shit.
FlipYrWhig
@Chuck Butcher:
Yes, I think that’s probably the case: they think they benefit from turning the other cheek, staying focused, and always maintaining an even keel, and that Republicans will do something to make themselves look like ogres. Republicans have already done some pretty terrible things and gotten away with it. But I believe that Obama is _sure_ that always reaching out, always absorbing the slings and arrows, always looking forward… pays off. If not in the short run, in the long run. It’s not “weakness,” it’s kind of his Tao. It hurts him from story to story, and he doesn’t have all the time in the world, so it makes me nervous too. But I do think it’s the idea.
Corner Stone
The problem is that sometimes that trap works too well.
I remember one time when I was a teenager I was dove hunting with a 20 gauge. I was walking across an area to get to an open field for the afternoon session. I looked around and suddenly realized I was in the middle of an area where boar or feral hogs had been rutting recently. I was in real trouble if they had come through there at that time. My shotgun was essentially useless unless I caught them in just the right spot.
IOW, if this is in fact the WH strategy they’d better be armed appropriately. And shoot to kill because they won’t get a second chance.
IMO, I doubt this scenario.
Chuck Butcher
I hate the idea of trying the nuke option. I don’t think Obama is weak and I do think he’s smart, real smart. I also think he needs better help.
Even something as messy as the Democrats can manage to stay out in front. It doesn’t matter if Nelson isn’t one of the voices if 43 Senators are and nearly 200 Reps and the WH. It doesn’t even have to be simutaneous and congruent because even close is nowhere near the GOP or defense. There’s no fixing what was done, now. The point is the next two years are catch up and the only way is to be on offense.
People have acted as though when I talked about the bully pulpit I wanted the WH to fix the Senate, that wasn’t it. I wanted the Americans to keep hearing good things about the Ds and what the Ds were trying to do – first, not second. And dammit, the WH has one of the best at that right at home.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: Pretty much every opponent Obama has ever had has had a spectacular flameout of some kind. They haven’t fallen from punches he has thrown, they’ve fallen on their own. I wonder if they’ve learned from that. Or learned too well?
Chuck Butcher
@Nick:
Nick if it is the case that half the country is crazy then this discussion is pointless as is doing anything other than having as much fun as you can for a short while.
Now I get tired of the shit and would rather ride the Harley or drag race or shoot than fuck with political stuff and for the last year I’ve pretty much done that. I was tired and I was disgusted and I don’t know where I’ll go from here … yet. But if I thought this country was that goddam lost I wouldn’t be here either.
Chuck Butcher
@FlipYrWhig:
I think the GOP is full of assholes, but I didn’t say stupid assholes. There are some shrewd people there and counting on a GOP implosion is asking a bit much. Shit, they’ve played the Ds like a cheap drum this last year, with plenty of help from so-called Ds.
FlipYrWhig
I’m bailing… I’m glad this thread got turned back around towards talk rather than just pure abuse.
Chuck Butcher
I’ve now proposed two counter ideas, that the GOP is shrewd and Boehner could fuck up the House. McConnell may have his hands full, but that House things promises to get weird. The place isn’t full of old hands, they recently got waxed, so there are a lot of newbies and trouble makers amongst them and even the hands. Jazus, is Issa a steadying influence or… take your pick. Remember what was left of the House was mostly the safe seat loons.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: The Republicans will overreach, that’s inevitable.
But what will this WH do with it?
From what I’ve seen so far, they will offer them a hand up off the floor and help them dust off their trousers.
Chuck Butcher
@FlipYrWhig:
yeah, glad too
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: Good riddance! Asshole!
Chuck Butcher
@Corner Stone:
I don’t know, the Pres hasn’t shown much in the line of vindictiveness, but there are some opponents in his past that didn’t do well, either. I don’t know that the word ruthless is apt, but there was some behind the hand smiles about not being on his side in a tussle.
Malron
One step closer to letting all the tax cuts expire, which is what I’ve wanted from the very beginning.
Chuck Butcher
@Malron: The math says it won’t happen without the GOPers deliberately stopping it. They won’t, they’ll get their rich cuts and maybe not shirk on START and the rest. The Ds cannot take the risk of how blame gets handed around for everybody getting whacked. No matter what deal at least 98% are affected and in this economy a big chunk of that can’t take another hit.
Our top rate bracket is ridiculously low as are the taxes at the top. I’d peg the brackets and rates to multiples of the media income to essentially infinity and make sure that the top rates got real stiff. Yes, I’d put cap gains on the same kind of scale. I’d take the cap off SS/FICA as well. Not going to happen.
Calouste
@Merkin:
__
The Sjem of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is probably the closest. In the end, it earned them a 125 year time out to come up with something that actually worked.
Keith G
Gee, this thread went well.
FixtheSenate
The problem with the Senate is that it was created on the assumption that debate would change a senator’s mind. That’s clearly erroneous, and so the place is useless.
Make senators debate legislation in front of a jury of random Americans. Make the bring out experts and evidence and facts, and allow the other side to poke holes in it. That way it won’t matter whether John McCain or McConnell change their minds. It will just matter whether they can actually change anyone else’s.
Yes, I know this is a pipe dream. But I’m dreaming big.
FixtheSenate
The problem with the Senate is that it was created on the assumption that debate would change a senator’s mind. That’s clearly erroneous, and so the place is useless.
Make senators debate legislation in front of a jury of random Americans. Make the bring out experts and evidence and facts, and allow the other side to poke holes in it. That way it won’t matter whether John McCain or McConnell change their minds. It will just matter whether they can actually change anyone else’s.
WyldPirate
@Nick:
Evidently you didn’t read the thread.
Go back through the thread and stop your knee-jerk chickenshit.
jinxtigr
Fuck tax cuts. Countries cost money. I’ll man up, even though I make very little money as it is.
There’s a bridge in my town that’s quite handy but it’s closed because it’s fallen into disrepair. If the other bridge goes, we’re really fucked for getting across to NH.
Alternative energy projects would be nice. No, more than that- they could be survival for us as a nation.
Mass transit, high-speed trains, the interstate system we have which is still hanging in there more or less… I’m supposed to go out and BUY a fucking highway or railroad in some little free market fantasy?
Fuck the tax cut noise. We fell off the Laffer curve BEFORE Clinton. This is some bullshit, and if we politically can’t talk about it, then I hope Obama’s long game is using governmental deadlock to let all that bread and circuses tax cut bullshit evaporate. INCLUDING any proposals he puts up just to say ‘no, I had a proposal for a tax cut, but your obstructionism killed even that’ for political cover.
Oh please don’t throw me in that briar patch…
LET THE TOYS BURN. Let it all expire, and use this so-begrudged perfectly normal revenue to buy things like, oh, I don’t know, a first world country? We might need one some day.
Jrod the Cookie Thief
Funny how the thread went from a flame-fest to a reasonable discussion at the exact moment that Stuck left the thread.
General Stuck, you are the cancer that’s ruining the comments on this blog. Do everyone, including yourself, a favor and get a life. Believe it or not, Obama will keep on trucking just fine if you’re not here 18 hours a day to lob mindless insults at anyone who’s not worshiping the man like he was a pagan idol.
General Stuck
@Jrod the Cookie Thief:
LOL. when you’re opponents have to resort to claiming you need a life, and dragging pets into the argument, that is when the argument is over. And then there is the lame “oversensitive” cry. It’s what all the bigots say when called on their bigotry
Martin Gifford
@FlipYrWhig:
Sorry I didn’t get back till now. I don’t have internet at home so I’m stuck with library internet. I’ll give a more detailed reply in a later thread, probably tomorrow if I see you commenting. But briefly, your arguments are always circular and always sound like someone backed into a corner with multiple forces attacking him. Here’s the basic response in the meantime:
FlipYr Whig: Dem senators always ignore Dem presidents.
Martin Gifford: That’s because Dem presidents don’t fight.
FlipYr Whig: What does “fighting” look like?
Martin Gifford: As I wrote, “Consistently argue for what is true and ethical, apply pressure, use political strategies against the Republicans rather than to accommodate the Republicans, etc. Essentially, Obama should be creating a counter-narrative to the security state and neoclassical economic ideology, but he is, instead, supporting that Republican narrative and fitting himself into it by becoming a war criminal and a supporter of corporate corruption himself.”
FlipYr Whig: Voters don’t like to see fighting.
Martin Gifford: Republicans fight. If the Dems fought, then the Republicans would have to fight too, so it would look balanced. Obama could have just shown the torture photos and said, “Don’t like fighting? Do you like these photos instead? That’s what not fighting looks like.” But if exposing the truth and arguing for the truth is fighting, and the public don’t like fighting, then they will have to suffer the consequences and the Dems will have to suffer them too. But in the long term, the Dems narrative will overtake the Reps if the Dems just fight for it.
Jrod the Cookie Thief
@General Stuck: Nothing you wrote has anything to do with what I said. We are not opponents, and we are not having an argument.
I’m simply pointing out the fact that, as soon as your trolling was out of the picture, this thread hosted an actual discussion between opposing sides.
You, personally, make this site worse. You do nothing to advance your own cause. You only spit invective, at the slightest provocation, for the better part of every single day, and almost exclusively toward the left.
Why? What is so lacking in your actual life that you have to do this?
It doesn’t matter. If you cared at all about this site, you’d stop shitting all over it. But you clearly only care about venting your hatred.