By now, you all have heard that the Republicans, in one of their first acts back from the midterm elections, have decided to scuttle START. Yes, that is crazy, obscene, and will undercut our foreign policy with Russia while making the world less safe, but to me, the craziest thing I’ve seen about the whole affair came in this NY Times write-up:
President Obama’s hopes of ratifying a new arms control treaty with Russia by the end of the year appeared to come undone on Tuesday as the chief Senate Republican negotiator moved to block a vote on the pact, one of the White House’s top foreign policy goals, in the lame-duck session of Congress.
The announcement by the senator, Jon Kyl of Arizona, the Republican point man on the issue, blindsided and angered the White House, which vowed to keep pressing for approval of the so-called New Start treaty. But the White House strategy had hinged entirely on winning over Mr. Kyl, and Democrats, who began scrambling for a backup plan, said they considered the chances of success slim.
Really? This blind-sided them? Sweet mother of everything holy.
Just what the hell have the members of this administration been paying attention to for the last two years? The Republicans are going to do EVERY single thing they can to ruin your administration. If they sense there is the slightest chance for you to do anything positive or constructive, they will block it. Did you not see them demanding that Robert Byrd be wheeled to the floor of the Senate at midnight on Christmas to vote for HCR? Did they not learn from Chuck Grassley saying that sure, if everything I want in HCR is in there, I will still vote against it. Did they not learn anything from all their dealings with the snow princesses in Maine? Have they not learned anything from the antics of mean old man McCain in regards to DADT? Lindsey Graham on cap and trade and immigration? They are actively working to keep the economy in the shitter until 2012, for chrissakes.
With all due respect, what the hell are you idiots in the White House smoking? You incompetent boobs. THE REPUBLICANS WILL NOT WORK WITH YOU IN GOOD FAITH ON ANYTHING. Get it through your god damned heads. And they will screw you dim bulbs on tax cuts next, and then you all will throw up your hands and tell us no one could have predicted. The Republicans aren’t the only one living in their own reality, as this White House clearly has constructed a new reality in which Republicans act in good faith. It’s about as real as Narnia.
Steve in Iowa
Reposting from earlier thread because it fits in better with John’s new post:
The GOP caucus can be counted on to be the disloyal opposition every time. Hopefully Obama has learned that after dealing with them for two years.
I have one hope for the GOP House caucus during this Congress. I want public hearings into the birth certificate. Please, Boehner! Please, Issa! Please throw your base the red meat that they crave! Please show the hearings live on C-Span! Please Politico cover every aspect of the birth certificate! Please call Orly Taitz as an expert witness!
Can even the GOP be this crazy? Whether they do hold hearings or not—then we have the answer to the stupid or evil question once and for all. Hold hearings: stupid/crazy. Don’t hold hearings: Evil. I’m betting on Evil.
liberal
Buh…buh…Obama plays 11-dim’l chess. And…and…and Congress not the executive legislates…and… {roll out every O-bot excuse…}
aimai
Uh, yes. The smartest guys in the room are, in fact, not so smart. Privately negotiating for the votes of individual Republicans has proven a complete disaster over and over and over again. But remember when you made fun of everyone for asking Obama to use the “bully pulpit”? What people meant was that he had to go public over what was really going on–when it mattered, of course, like before the god damned midterm–and fuck up these wankers publicly. The long term interests of the Republican party trump the long and short term interest of the country–but you can’t tell me that there aren’t some billionaires out there who can call up John Kyl personally and tell him to get the fuck in line on foreign policy/nuclear negotiations. And each individual Republican is subject to that kind of pressure from the one’s that’s bought them for other reasons.
aimai
MadRuth
Guess you’re becoming one of those crazy lefties who think Obama can’t so anything right just because he hasn’t solved all the world’s problems. Many of us have been compalining about this for a while and have been mocked relentlessly.
Xenos
I don’t think the administration is all that surprised. But they need to act surprised in order for the media to run with the story ‘WH surprised with Republican craziness and mendacity’.
Whether the media runs that story or not is another issue.
ET
I guess they were either not paying attention or deluded themselves into thinking there were still a few grown up Republicans.
The administration has to wake up. There are no grown ups in the GOP anymore and pretending, saying, believing, thinking there are is only going to get you in trouble.
Thoughtcrime
Sorry, John. No one (in this administration) is this stupid and naive.
The reason is something else. Something worse.
liberal
@Steve in Iowa:
Obama should have learned that after the thugs impeached Clinton.
BGinCHI
You lie down with dogs like Kyl, you get fucking fleas. I’m not sure there’s an easy solution to running a government with a bunch of assholes like the current GOP, but it ain’t appeasement.
Anyone else read this excellent TPM piece on how the GOP are stupid fucking pissypants liars?
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/11/thats_the_story_galacticfail_edition.php#more?ref=fpblg
Alex S.
I can sort of understand the White House though. A few areas have always been free of partisanship. Disarmament treaties and foreign policy in general, were among them. But the White House needs to realize that there will not be the tiniest chance of any compromise in any area, because the Republican primaries won’t allow it and Congress is divided. Cantor’s comments to Netanyahu should have been a tell.
Dave
Thanks to the GOP, we haven’t been able to inspect the Russian nuclear arsenal for over a year. Thanks, assholes.
Suck It Up!
Oh so the WH is incompetent now?
Do people honestly think that the WH and the Democrats don’t see the GOP’s games? You guys constantly rail against the blue dogs and then get mad and call the Dems stupid when they have to go seek GOP votes. All people keep saying is that the WH shouldn’t work with the GOP, but fail to say where the fucking votes are going to come from.
liberal
@liberal:
Flamebait aside, I’m not convinced the WH was all that blindsided.
aimai
@Xenos:
Yeah but acting shocked (“I’m shocked, shocked, that gambling is going on here”) is a tactic that only works if you really know how to do it and if you really market it. I have yet to see the Dems know how to pull the outrage shtick successfully–for example, the right thing to do would be to have pulled it succesfully before the god damned lame duck session. If you are going to jack up your opposition you have to do it from a position of relative strength, not weakness.
aimai
Byfuglien (pronounced Bufflin)
@Xenos: This. Duh. Get with it, Cole.
celticdragonchick
Narnia at least has cool talking critters and the Telmarines are competent…even if they are 16th century genocidal loons.
uila
“Republicans undercut our foreign policy while making us less safe.” This can’t be repeated enough.
How about Eric Cantor and Netanyahu?
liberal
@BGinCHI:
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Wiesman
Some people come here for pics of Tunch and stories of Lily and Rosie. Others for interesting essays from mistermix, Levenson, dengre, Anne, Tim, Doug, Kain, et al.
Me? I come for the rants. The delicious rants.
Thoughtcrime
@Steve in Iowa:
I suggest a Democrat call upon some of the craziest of these hearings. Have the GOP put up or shut up on all this nonsense.
brendancalling
speaking of chess, here’s my take on President Kick-Me.
dude ain’t playing chess, multi-dimensional or otherwise.
liberal
@uila:
There are many issue areas which differentiate the Dems and the Rethugs. Putting Israel before America isn’t, unfortunately, one of them.
celticdragonchick
@uila:
Nice try. The real meme will be
“Obama losses again in Senate. Senior Republicans concerned treaty undercuts American security. Right wing bloggers attack blah blah blah”
Captain Haddock
Wait a minute – so we can and do accept that the Republicans are not acting in good faith. That is a given.
But why do many accept that the Democrats are?
Are we supposed to believe they are “bullied” or “outwitted” by the Republicans at every turn? Isn’t the simpler conclusion that both are bought and paid for by the same interests?
I don’t know where the great change is coming from, but it isn’t the White House.
Comrade Dread
I would have thought having the main party leaders come right out and say their top priority would be making sure Obama wasn’t re-elected might have clued them into the fact.
But, hey, clap louder. Maybe this time Lucy won’t pull the football away.
piratedan
Apparently the Dems think this is just like back in the Clinton days where all this “posturing” was just petty partisan politics at play until they drew out the long knives over Lewinski and Whitewater.
The WH doesn’t understand that there are two types of Republicans that are in play…the know nothings, recently elected by our Tea Party brethren that wish to have the “obscene” government spending stop on the behalf of anyone not white, unless its to arm them to fight for our “freedoms” killing the “enemy” wherever Fox News tells them they might be. The other Republicans simply want to be in power, having sold out their morals and ethics to those that have their own agenda. Once they’ve been bought and paid for and they believe that once you’ve been bought, you should stay bought on behalf of their rich corporate masters, who are such intelligent businessmen that they believe keeping the American public, ignorant, poor and in a state of constant despair is “good” for them, as if there is a finite amount of success to go around and so they intend to go on hoarding as much of “it” as possible.
Dems have to get a lot better at playing this game or understanding their opponents (more difficult due to the “fifth column” already amongst their ranks) quickly. Otherwise, we’ll be seeing Civil War II playing out in about 20 years that’s gonna make the Russian Revolution look like a bunch of pikers.
MattF
The teensy-weensy-itsy-bitsy bit of good news here is that the person Kyl dissed was Hilary Clinton. Will she ever forgive or forget? Ha ha ha.
liberal
@Suck It Up!:
We’re saying the WH can’t work with the GOP, not merely shouldn’t.
Read Krugman’s comments on the Rethuglicans being a “revolutionary power.” You can’t compromise with those people.
Kryptik
But again, Obama blames himself personally for the tone and lack of civility in Washington.
I’m really starting to think that this administration could have eyes on its ass and still couldn’t call a turd a turd. Disillusionment, Ho.
kwAwk
The Republicans are just pushing this back so that Democrats won’t get credit for it in this Congress.
When people look back two years from now and see the difference betwee what was accomplished in 2009-2010 as compared between 2011-2012 it isn’t going to look good for Republicans.
Suck It Up!
@aimai:
the public does not care. they aren’t going to take to the streets or the phones regarding foreign policy or anything else. And what billionaire do you think is going to demand the GOP do something for Obama?
A public lashing by Obama = great fundraiser for the GOP. They have no shame.
El Cid
The Republicans have been screaming about ending the nuclear negotiations for the whole campaign as surrender to the world’s threats to the US. There’s no way it could be a surprise to anyone.
4tehlulz
The New York Times says the administration was blindsided; therefore, the administration was blindsided.
Just Some Fuckhead
Hopefully they will redouble their efforts to work with Republicans because that is what a majority of Democrats want.
Kryptik
@Captain Haddock:
Because the only natural extension of that is to believe that we’re all fucked because the fix is in on all levels. Some people just don’t want to believe that. Me, I’m racing that way faster by the day.
liberal
@Captain Haddock:
That’s true, though I’d like to add the “Iron Law of Institutions” from ATinyRevolution.
Nick
Are you accusing Obama of smoking crack? That’s racist!
CT Voter
Go ahead and vent your spleen over an anonymous quote in the Times, just when we’re in up to our ears about “Dems demoralized”, “shellacking”, and what-not group think. Yeah, Kyl backs out, and we’re sure the WH is blindsided and angry, just because someone said so in the Times.
Just like someone said Obama crashed the Republican conference last January.
The Republic of Stupidity
This puts us all in an interesting situation…
As much as they may desperately wish it so, Republicans will never succeed in becoming the
onlymajority party in the country foreveh and eveh…Having pushed the political process completely to the brink of anarchy trying to get their own way and destroy the Obama Admin, where do they go from here?
I’ve seen nasty politics before, but nothing like this…
What do they do to the next Dem Admin… and the next?
For as sure as there will be another Repub Pres, there’ll be another Dem one too… and I don’t see a Repub candidate in sight I think can actually Do a Good Job™…
President Bohner?
I don’t think so…
President Palin?
President Gingrich?
And apart from that (I’m gittin’ sick just thinking about it…)
How long do they think this idiotic bullying routine will get them what they want?
Sooner or later, they’ll HAVE TO start ‘making policy’…
And what happens when the worm finally turns, ’cause it always does… and Dems start playing as nasty a Repubs?
BGinCHI
Everyone calm the fuck down. Caddel and Schoen will tell us what to do in the WaPo this week and everything will be ok.
Martin
Democrats: Hey, Obama, why don’t you get angry about this shit the GOP is pulling.
Democrats: Hey, Obama, why are you getting angry about this shit the GOP is pulling, didn’t you expect it?
Should Obama to act outraged or to act like Obama. Pick one please.
NonyNony
@Captain Haddock:
When it’s something like this though – where nobody at all benefits from the Republican playing partisan one-ups-man-ship games instead of just doing their damn jobs, and the topic at hand (START) isn’t exactly election year candy, it becomes kind of obvious that the whole “both parties suck equally” mantra is blind at best and idiotic at worst.
Now, I suspect that the White House is angry because while they expect opposition they don’t expect stupid opposition on foreign policy. I imagine they had Dick Lugar working on Kyl for a while and were honestly surprised that after the election he decided to dump whatever agreement they have. Because Obama and his people still seem to cling to the 20th century Democratic ideal that politics and government should be separate – that you should keep your campaigning to the campaign trail and the compromise to do what’s best for the country once you’ve won an election.
If anything infuriates me about our current Democratic politicians its that they don’t understand that the dynamic has fundamentally changed. 24/7 news cycles have brought with them 24/7 political campaigning for the next election cycle. The instant connectivity of the web means that activists know how you vote on everything and can connect the dots for non-activists in ways that they couldn’t before (that’s why the filibuster abuse has been so bad – it used to be you could vote for cloture, vote against the bill and then tell everyone “hey, I voted against it”. You can’t do that anymore because activists have gotten good at calling that out as bullshit).
Republicans have always known that the campaign never stops – you always posture for the next election. Because for them governance is secondary to holding power. Democrats seem to think that good governance is valuable and so they let their guard down because they stupidly seem to think that the Republicans agree with this. Republicans would rather have an unsuccessful America governed poorly by Republicans than a successful America governed well by Democrats. Until Democratic leaders and political advisers understand this basic fact they will continue to be “shocked and angry” when Republicans do these kinds of things.
Ash Can
After having read the article, and having studied how things happen on Capitol Hill (including being there myself as an intern and observing the operations firsthand), I can understand how the WH could have believed that Kyl was negotiating in good faith. This really is how work gets done in the government — there’s a reason the term “horsetrading” appears time and again in even the most basic accounts and descriptions of federal lawmaking. The WH was negotiating with (in this case) Kyl because there is no alternate procedure to (again, in this case) getting the treaty ratified. And lawmakers negotiate concessions in exchange for their votes. The system and its players were operating exactly as designed, up to now.
Now, did it really never enter into Obama’s, or anyone else’s, mind that Kyl might reneg at the last minute? That’s something we’ll never know for sure (and something that I personally strongly doubt). The article gives the impression that there was no Plan-B backup for Kyl in the event he burned the WH. Based on my own experience I rather think that Kyl was nowhere near Plan A in the first place — probably more like Plan L or M.
BGinCHI
@The Republic of Stupidity: Umm, no. They are trying to break the government so that they can loot the country: unfettered capitalist exploitation without taxation or legal remedy.
Run up the debt, use the military to dominate, and allow business to have its way with what’s left of the middle and lower class.
Makes the Goths and the Visigoths look reasonable.
cmorenc
@Suck It Up:
That the WH should, at least for the next two years, COMPLETELY ABANDON trying to seek GOP votes is precisely what we are saying. Usta Be, there were actually some reasonable GOP senators and congressmen who were amenable meeting democrats halfway, and still others who could be bought with a handful of collateral concessions over here or over there. However, it’s been repeatedly demonstrated over the past two years that the ONLY tactical goal of republicans in appearing to dabble in negotiations with the White House over ANYTHING is to insert enough delay to mount effective teabagger or special interest opposition and an effective disinformation propaganda campaign with the public, with the sole goal of making the administration look bad and ineffective.
Fuck that. It should be two years of all-out war with these vicious sociopaths, with the sole purpose of exposing them for what they are to the electorate.
Sentient Puddle
Y’know, I think it’s at least worth pointing out that ratification of the treaty requires 67 votes in the Senate. There wasn’t ever a point where they had the option of not working with Republicans…
Kryptik
@The Republic of Stupidity:
Where do they go from here? The answer is pretty obvious: Privatization of Gov’t. Aren’t you just looking forward to United States Inc., with majority shareholders Exxon-Mobil and Cigna?
Rick Taylor
The article says this blind sided the white house, but it doesn’t quote anyone in the administration who said they were blind sided (at least not as far as I’ve read; I’m rushing to get to work). For all we know the administration went into negotiations, fully aware that Kyle would probably stab them in the back, under the principle we had to pass Start and this was the only way to have a chance of doing it.
I’m far more troubled by Obama’s comments in an interview where he said, Obama saying now, “I neglected some things that matter a lot to people, and rightly so: maintaining a bipartisan tone in Washington . . . I’m going to redouble my efforts to go back to some of those first principles.” This is so wrong on so many levels I can only hope he was lying through his teeth when he said it. There was a reason we jokingly called Obama the “unity pony.”
Suck It Up!
@liberal:
can’t, shouldn’t, whatever. they need to get shit done and if they need a vote from a republican then they have to pursue it. they have to try right? isn’t that what you guys throw at the WH and Dems on the other things they failed to get? — “they didn’t even try ’cause they just really don’t care” – sound familiar? A most recent example is DADT supporters saying Obama didn’t try to get a republican vote and that’s why the vote failed.
I wish Obama and the Dems never had to work with the GOP but when they need a vote they need a vote. They can’t pull it out of their asses and he can’t do everything by executive order so they have to swallow their pride and try to coerce one of those knuckle heads to do the right thing.
Dems have cable, they read, they know. In many cases they know more than the rest of us who get third hand accounts. They are not surprised. They are most likely desperate.
4tehlulz
@Sentient Puddle: You know, if Obama truly was a strong leader, he would have the treaty ratified with only 51 votes.
This only shows how weak he is.
DaBomb
WOW, so we are believeing the unnamed source that the uber “liberal” NYT used for this piece?
This circle jerk is going to keep happening, if we keep buying into the stupidity.
Michael
Rather than criticizing Obama for his constant extension of the open hand of friendship, I’m going to praise him for it.
Reason why? He is doing his best to preserve the institution by action as opposed to words, and is demonstrating that he is in office for the benefit of all Americans, not just those who agree with him.
Its just a shame that in the end, White America turned out to be not as good as even the citizens of Rock Ridge in Blazing Saddles.
Suck It Up!
@CT Voter:
was that even an anonymous quote or the NY Times being dramatic?
Michael
@Xenos:
They won’t run it. They will, however, lead with Snowball Snooki’s tweets about the last fart she cut.
Maude
@Ash Can:
#43
The NYT doesn’t source the statement that the WH was blindsided.
It makes Obama look like a fool.
Obama probably wasn’t shocked by the Kyl reversal.
The Republicans started on Start with the first letter To Obama with demands to be met before they’s vote for it.
This is high stakes gaming.
The Russian nukes haven’t been seen in a year by the US, but the Republicans seem to have no problem with that.
I do hope that the games the RIghties are playing start to blow up in their faces, pardon the vernacular.
Corner Stone
@Xenos:
Of course they are not surprised. BWTS, what is their Plan B?
gwangung
Kyl: a fucking traitor.
What else do you call someone who undermines American policy and makes America less safe?
Rick Taylor
Just to reiterate, I don’t see anything wrong with the administration handling of this. Yes the Republicans were almost surely going to stab them in the back, but Start was really important, they had to get it passed if at all possible, and this was the only way to do it.
The Republicans double crossed them because they wanted to make Democrats look ineffective. We shouldn’t help them by reinforcing that view. As obvious as it is to us, not everyone realizes how destructive the Republican party has become; that’s the point we should be reinforcing and communicating; perhaps it will wake a few more people up.
Corner Stone
@Alex S.:
I’m sorry. What? Did you say foreign policy?
Well before “Only Nixon could go to China” entered our lexicon, foreign policy was a huge political gamesplaying football.
4tehlulz
@gwangung: A Republican.
scarshapedstar
Put down the firebag, John. Clearly they never had the votes. It’s people like you who lost this election.
(The Ghost of BJ Posts Past rattles his chains)
Corner Stone
@Martin:
You’re asking us to pick whether we should choose for President Obama’s administration to look like clueless fools, or to point out the childish behavior by Republicans.
Hmmm…lemme think about it.
K. Grant
Of course, you could always piss on the person who actually created this headline – Sen. Kyl.
Perchance if more people actually blamed and castigated the people who cause the problems they might start acting like responsible adults.
But nope – more fun to piss on the President for being weak-willed, spineless, Charlie Brown, etc, etc, ad nauseum.
The Republicans don’t have to be responsible adults because they know that all they have to do is smack the President around and all of the Democrats will abandon him for not fighting back.
I am not saying Obama is blameless, but we know what kind of President and person he is, he will always try to build consensus, always. Thus we, or some actual Democratic supporters in the House and Senate, have to be the ones to wield the big stick. Where are the Democrats in Congress who want this done? Are they running to the cable channels to blister Kyl for being an obstructionist hack, or will they kvetch about Obama caving once again?
FlipYrWhig
Um, John, I think you’re missing something here.
Sounds like the _announcement_ is what “blindsided and angered” the WH. Did the Republicans’ opposition do so? Well, it doesn’t say that. Probably not. But going public with it in the way Kyl did was a surprise. It sounds to me like the WH was expecting Republicans to fight sub rosa rather than out in the open, for a while longer at least.
@liberal: But you might want to SAY that you’re looking forward to compromising with them, so when they DON’T, they LOOK BAD. This isn’t an arcane point of political strategy. Maybe you don’t think it will work, fine, but it’s not like it’s unheard of. Fuckin’ _Bush_ ran on his track record of successful collaboration with Democrats in the Texas statehouse. It’s something politicians say. It is not _necessarily_ something politicians _mean_.
Corner Stone
@DaBomb:
We don’t have to believe the source at all. Let’s have the WH show us their Plan B.
If they knew Kyl was going to bone them then they should have a parallel structure ready.
Just like the HCR aftermath due to the Senate race in Massachusetts.
homerhk
Kryptic and Rick Taylor: in that same article what he said he hadn’t done enough was
On the basis that he is now going to go out there and explain the choices made etc., that can only be a good thing.
On this thing, I sometimes think of an analogy of a poker game. If you learn to play poker, there are certain things to do and certain things not to do – but they only really work if the people you play with also, by and large, follow the same principles. In this case, Obama has to assume that the other guys he plays with are also playing using the same principles. Otherwise, there can be no planning, no thought about how to achieve anything. For example, if he just proceeded on the basis that they wouldn’t get republican votes for anything, why would they even bother doing the START treaty in the first place. They had to deal with some republicans; so they chose Kyl who apparently had been leaned on by the Sec Defense as well as Obama. If Kyl had indicated that he was going to help, should they have assumed that he was lying? maybe they should have, but how would that have helped getting START treaty through Congress.
aimai
@Suck It Up!:
I don’t know, this whole thing reminds me of Chesterton’s joke about Christianity–that its not that its so hard but that its never been tried.
Each and everyone of the Republicans is bought and paid for by several major industries and wealthy donors. Each and every one of them has skeletons in their closet, illegalities, and weaknesses. And each and every one of them can be gotten to on some point. The question is simply one of leverage. The Dems, at the moment, appear to believe that the leverage comes from some mixture of petting, stroking, and “working with” these people as though they had some better nature or particular favor that they want. Every single one of these after the fact descriptions of negotiations has looked the same “but X told us that he really would trade his vote for A, B, or C” and so we waited and tried to get him what he asked for.” And every time the Dems are shocked to discover that X comes out publicly and reveals that he was pressured by his party or by his personal preference to reneg on his own negotiations.
At this point looking outside the system for leverage or going to the fucking mattresses and predicting two years ago that the Republicans would fuck up a major national security issue for purely petty political reasons looks like the more sensible strategy. At least if Obama and the Dems had come out fighting right after the START treaty was negotiated and said “We have done a great job but we are, unfortunately, sure that Senator Kyl and the other Republicans will stab the country in the back” they’d be in a better position. By ever granting the Republicans some kind of public honor or integrity the Dems make it hard to force the Republicans to own up to their own shit.
We have this conversation all the time over here so no doubt any minute General Stuck and Nick will explain to me how the Republicans will blah blah blah and nothing can ever alter anything. But that’s patently a pointless argument. Working with the Republicans got us into a minority position in the house. working against the Republicans publicly might have gotten us to the same position but we’d at least be able to explain to the voting public that its not our fault that the other side are intransigent assholes.
aimai
FlipYrWhig
@Kryptik:
Except that he didn’t say that. Don’t trust political reporters. They are stupid and sloppy, and the higher they rise in their profession, the stupider and sloppier they get.
Suck It Up!
@cmorenc:
I’m all for that!!! now, tell me where do the votes come from? do we have a secret stash of Democrats somewhere ready to replace a NO vote from another Democrat?
Suck It Up!
@Rick Taylor:
Why not? he gets called a liar on everything else.
ChrisNYC
So, Obama needs a 2/3rd’s Senate majority to pass the treaty and he should say, “We don’t need no stinking Republicans.” That is a really super super smart plan and totally a winner. Government by crowd sourcing is totally awesome — and all the answers are so easy!
DaBomb
@FlipYrWhig:
That’s the problem. People keep believeng the horseshit coming out of these reporters mouths.
You’re right, PBO didn’t say that.
FlipYrWhig
@aimai:
Why would they be “in a better position” after that? It would play like this: Republicans would squawk, the media would decry the savage attacks of the Democrats, Republican wouldn’t vote for it and say that the reason was because the Democrats were so mean and unyielding, and the public wouldn’t hear any of the details except that partisan sniping had derailed something important, just reinforcing how little politicians care about serving the public, and fostering the attitude that They’re All The Same.
p.a.
can’t wait for Sully to spin this as another case of Obama taking the long view.
Any thoughts/comments on the fact that Obama is the first President since LBJ not to have executive experience? Ford was a caretaker Pres., Johnson’s mastery of the senate helped him as Pres. (I count Nixon’s and 41’s time as veep as experience). JFK was the last Senator (ex-LBJ) to be Pres., and his brief time was thin on accomplishments. Does this affect Obama’s ability to govern?
DaBomb
@K. Grant: THIS. RIGHT HERE.
aimai
@Suck It Up!:
But we aren’t going to get those votes anyway. Never. Nada. The game we are playing now is positioning for the 2012 elections. If the Dems don’t *use Republican instransigence and incompetence* as the key reason why voters need to vote Dem in 2012 they are losing the only opportunity for good that comes out of this current debacle. For the next two years there simply can’t be any good votes coming out of the House or the Senate. All that’s left is better posturing and marketing.
aimai
danimal
Um, the treaty ratification vote needs 67 votes to pass the Senate. Any Einsteins out there have a plan to get to 67 without GOP votes?
If the GOP wants to demagogue the issue, there isn’t a thing that can be done. The best thing to do is to publicize their dangerous and unpatriotic (and, frankly, insincere) rantings and move on to other issues. Kyl has all but admitted his opposition is a shakedown for nuclear modernization funding. Sooner or later the GOP is going to want to pass something requiring the President’s signature, they’ll come to the table then. Patience and a long memory are what’s needed at this point.
DaBomb
@p.a.:
Obama’s isn’t thin on accomplishments.
Keep circle jerking.
tatere
It seems like this and other similar facepalm moments lately come down to a pretty simple trait – an inability to see and accept having been wrong.
This whole “Oh we just cared so much about doing a good job that we didn’t pay enough attention to PR” line since the election is sad confirmation of that trait. It’s like the guy who goes into his yearly job evaluation and when asked what he thinks his flaws are, says “I think sometimes I care too much about doing a good job.” Right.
They won’t change their strategies because that would be admitting that they weren’t the most super best strategies ever to begin with. Mistakes are things that other people make.
Brachiator
@p.a.:
No.
Suck It Up!
@K. Grant:
Got Dang! You hit the nail on the head! What incentive do they have to act right when all blame is placed on the people who are actually trying to do something?
FlipYrWhig
@p.a.:
You know what affects Obama’s ability to govern? Republican dicks, and Democratic dicks. On every issue he has to cajole his own party into doing anything to begin with, then hope that a token Republican grows a damn conscience. That’s it.
Clinton was hamstrung the same way, so he started cherry-picking some “Republican” ideas so that he could notch a few victories and get a PR boost. Now Republicans are wise to that and won’t allow _that_ either. They’re nihilists. That’s the story.
Obama could be huffing and puffing and pounding the podium and we wouldn’t be anywhere different, except that he’d have a lower approval rating and the media would be crowded with insider-ish anecdotes about his volatility and the unanticipated partisanship of an administration that promised to change the tone.
Suck It Up!
@aimai:
I hear you, but I have a real problem with congress just sitting on their ass while this country goes to shit. I want Dems to win and do what they can to win, but its ticking me off that for 8 years our domestic problems were ignored and now we have to sit and wait for another two years while both sides posture? unacceptable. I can’t afford to wait.
MBunge
@aimai: For the next two years there simply can’t be any good votes coming out of the House or the Senate.
And what about the two years after that? Will there be 70 progressive Dems in the Senate and 300 progressive Dems in the House? And what about two years after that? And two years after that?
Mike
catclub
@Ash Can:
The real question to ask is: Do the nuclear weapons upgrades and spending that were promised to Kyl get killed since he has reneged? My answer is no. Those will now go through. I would be pleased to be wrong, but in the negotiations the administration has essentially agreed that those are actually necessary things ( they are not) and will be excoriated for killing them.
Like I say, I would like to be wrong.
I would also have liked the democrats to have yanked all the stuff they promised Grassley out of the health care bill.
They did not.
FlipYrWhig
@aimai:
Don’t you have to set that up by making it clear that Republicans are being intransigent and Democrats _aren’t_? Because there’s no way that running on Republican intransigence will work if Democrats are intransigent right back. That’s why there has to be this rhetoric of how Democrats are willing to be constructive and Republicans aren’t. You have to be able to run on the idea that _we tried_ and _they refused_. You can’t run on _they’re dicks, so we were dicks right back_.
Suck It Up!
John C. don’t get sucked in man.
scarshapedstar
@danimal:
THERE ARE NO GOP VOTES AND NEVER WILL BE. They are already talking about shutting down the government, are they not? Nothing is getting through Congress. The only people saying otherwise are wishfully-thinking Democrats.
You know, it would cost me billions of dollars to fly to Mars and back. I plan to rob Fort Knox and buy a spaceship.
Any Einsteins have a better plan? No? Well then help me breach this door.
Wait, what’s that? You’re saying that no power on earth is going to get me to Mars and back? Well, shit… I guess I should work on doing the things I can do. If I were President, I might start with ENDING THE WARS. COMPLETELY. BY NOVEMBER 2012.
the fake fake al
But what do you do. The bully pulpit doesn’t seem to work because the GOP noise machine is too strong. Clenis-esque triangulation worked when the GOP had some reasonable members. Reminds me of my teens refusing to do anything no matter what I did. Really, what can Obama do?
Mike
Someone should tell the Executive Branch that a big big big part of the reason they were elected is that Americans were tired of having a president who lived in a delusional fantasyland.
catclub
@aimai:
“If the Dems don’t use Republican instransigence and incompetence as the key reason why voters need to vote Dem in 2012.”
Isn’t that just a reason to elect a GOP president so the GOP house and senate will behave? (Like fucking lapdogs.)
Martin
@Corner Stone: No, I’m not saying that.
I’m saying that if you want the WH to express anger and disappointment that the GOP would block something like START, then don’t complain when they express anger and disappointment that the GOP would block something like START.
The last 2 years has had Democrats not complaining about the WH actions, but their demeanor and presentation. If they leak demeanor and presentation to the press, now they’re idiots for not cooly anticipating this turn of events.
Just admit that they can’t fucking please you guys.
FlipYrWhig
@MBunge: I’m with you. I think too few people realize that the last two years were probably the _most_ progressive/liberal we’re likely to see for a very long time. What we got out of that session is the pinnacle of progressive accomplishment for the foreseeable future. You don’t have to feel pleased about it, but it’s the cold reality.
Corner Stone
@scarshapedstar:
Awesome. Awesome.
daveNYC
What parallel structure could they have? They need 67 votes for START ratification. Their only choices are to negotiate with some Republicans and hope they don’t get screwed, or not submit it for a vote.
Guster
@aimai:
This. A thousand times this.
Chris
@Captain Haddock:
Captain Haddock (love the name, by the way),
Because, in order to believe that, I’d have to believe that the Democratic politicians are willingly going through the grueling process of getting themselves elected, only so that they could lose their seats to the Republicans almost immediately.
Who puts themselves through that just for the cause? If the uber-rich ordered a Republican politician to lose an election, do you think he’d accept? Of course not – politicians are just as greedy and power-hungry as their financial backers.
So the fact that Dems keep failing indicates makes it seem to me that they’re idiots rather than active collaborators. As someone once said, never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity.
ruemara
@catclub:
Then perhaps, if we wish to correct the White House and Senate Dems, then this is the tactic we should push. If they can’t or won’t govern in good faith, then we pull everything we’ve offered off the table. Fuck them, fuck their constituencies.
Corner Stone
@Martin:
IMO, I think a little anger is called for. So why isn’t an official spokesperson out front of this laying into Kyl, et al?
Why are they letting the fucking NYT set the narrative by using “blindsided” for God’s fucking sake?
My whole point in this thread is, where is the Plan B?
This vote was never going to happen. Never. Ever.
We all knew it. The WH HAD to know it too.
So where is their parallel PR push or any action to get in front of this?
Otherwise, what was the fucking point of doing it at all if you weren’t going to use it as a political “gotcha”?
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
@cmorenc:
The START treaty requires 67 senate votes in favor of it. The Democrats only have 53 senators. You do the math.
Ash Can
@catclub: I don’t know the answer to that either, but neither do I think that agreement to Kyl’s demands is the same as agreeing that what he wanted was necessary.
@scarshapedstar: You do realize that what you’re saying really has nothing to do with what danimal is saying, right?
cyntax
@danimal:
Yeah but that’s the thing that never frickin happens. The Dems, and this administration in particular, never try to exact a rhetorical price from the Repubs for their intransience. Instead we get Obama going to the press talking about how he regrets that he didn’t change the tone in Washington. That ain’t gonna win votes in 2012.
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
@p.a.: Did those presidents have to deal with a Republican party this insane, with lockstep votes on everything? I don’t think so, but feel free to absolve Kyl and blame Obama for not having prior experience applying pliers to opponents’ testicles.
Church Lady
Put one man in the White House with no executive experience and a short two years in Washington before running for the highest office in the land. Add a close inner circle of Advisors for Chicago, almost all with absolutely no experience in Washington. They get rolled by Washington almost every time. Who could have known?
Color me shocked.
MBunge
@Corner Stone:
IMO, I think a little anger is called for. So why isn’t an official spokesperson out front of this laying into Kyl, et al?
Because then the chances of getting START passed, which is actually kind of important, go from long to impossible.
Here’s the thing. An “official spokesperson” shouldn’t have to be the one laying into Kyl, et al. This and other GOP acts that can only be described as irresponsible, irrational or evil should draw condemnation from across our political, media and economic elite. If those elites are not going to do their job, there’s not Obama or anyone else can do to compensate for that.
Mike
p.a.
@DaBomb: poor writing on my part; I’m not saying Obama’s accomplishments are weak, I’m saying his political operation is weak, and that undermines public understanding of what he has accomplished. Look at TPM today on how he made the Republicans look like fools at their political retreat last year. He and his team could be doing that every fucking day in every media outlet available. Read Cole’s post for this thread. How many more times will his admin. be Charlie Brown to the Republicans’ Lucy pulling away the football? The R’s are not loyal opposition deserving of respect, they’re sappers undermining the admin. and the nation. But, if O understands that, he’s not acting on it.
Corner Stone
@daveNYC: I don’t mean a way to get the vote passed. That was never going to happen.
I mean, why bother with this whole thing if you weren’t going to take advantage of it in some way? If not getting the vote you want, then at least set the obstructionism up in the right light so it’s easy to see what happened. Beforehand.
No one in this WH can play this game?
the fake fake al
Fuck the Start treaty, the only way to win, is a better economy, and only that will get O a second term, save some Senate seats and possibly keep a dem majority in 2012. Spare me the outrage, take Start off the table and anything other ideas too. Focus 100% of your time and energy on lowering the unemployment rate. You got your progressive agenda accomplished, now it time to work toward 2012. Read my lips, Obama, economy, economy, economy. Results in the economy trump any GOP narrative.
MBunge
@Church Lady: Yes, because putting a woman in charge with even less direct political experience would have worked out so much better.
Mike
K. Grant
@Church Lady: Look, a refugee from Free Republic.
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
@Church Lady: And still they managed to pass a health insurance reform bill that many presidents tried and failed to pass for 60 years. And financial reform that Wall Street still hates even in its watered-down form. Impressive for a bunch of kindergarteners from Chicago, wouldn’t you say?
Corner Stone
@MBunge:
Bullshit and bullshit.
START was never going to pass. I don’t know why anyone ever assumed it would. Did you?
So then to me, IMO, the whole reason to invest any effort in this kind of treaty (which IIRC needs 67 votes) was to use it as a bomb. And be ready for when it blew up. That is the WH’s job, not anyone else’s.
MBunge
@Corner Stone: I mean, why bother with this whole thing if you weren’t going to take advantage of it in some way?
Because they’re actually trying to be responsible adults and do their job of helping govern the country?
I don’t quite understand how people don’t look back and see how the “permanent campaign” of Bill Clinton achieved even fewer progressive policy victories and produced even greater Democratic political defeats.
Mike
p.a.
@Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people): please show me in my original post where I absolve Kyl or blame Obama. I was asking a question as to whether the fact that Obama has previously not held executive office and comes from an institution where collegiality has been the rule, may negatively affect the White House’s political operation.
MBunge
@Corner Stone: START was never going to pass. I don’t know why anyone ever assumed it would.
Because it would be crazily destructive to the best interests of the country if it didn’t?
Again, if the GOP can act in an irrational, irresponsible and even evil way and no one else makes a big deal out of it…why do think Obama making a big deal out of it will make a difference?
Mike
Corner Stone
@MBunge:
Where are the votes? Show me where the 67 votes for passage are?
Otherwise you’re just blah blah blah and all the other shit that got heaped on this blog during HCR.
It is utter foolishness to think Obama was going to get 7 or so R votes in the lame duck, much less 11 or so R votes in the new Congress.
Which of the R Senators is ready to get primaried? Guaran fucking tee you Orrin Hatch isn’t on that list. he was shit scared this morning on MSNBC talking to Chuckles Todd.
Corner Stone
@MBunge:
I hate to break this to you, but the WH plays a political role in this country.
cyntax
@MBunge:
Was it the permanent campaign or the the triangulation that produced poor results? I don’t see how it’s responsible to keep trying the same losing strategy with Repubs at this point.
You said that unless condemnation comes from across the political spectrum, nothing will happen. If that’s the case, why isn’t the WH trying to get that ball rolling? Why aren’t they trying to shape the narrative? In short, why aren’t they leading?
ruemara
@Church Lady:
Do, please, go fuck yourself.
DaBomb
@Church Lady: You are such a troll.
MBunge
@Corner Stone: Where are the votes? Show me where the 67 votes for passage are?
So, when other people are irresponsible…it actually improves things for more people to become irresponsible? Yeah, that couldn’t make make things any worse.
Mike
MBunge
@cyntax: If that’s the case, why isn’t the WH trying to get that ball rolling? Why aren’t they trying to shape the narrative? In short, why aren’t they leading?
And if Obama came out and ripped Kyl a new one, what would happen? Would the media suddenly realize that Kyl’s being an asshole? Would Kyle suddenly realize the error of his ways? Or would we get a deluge of news stories about how Obama’s “snapped” and “lost it” and Kyl all over the media talking about the fight with the White House and not the issue at stake?
Mike
Lit3Bolt
Shorter Balloon Juicers: We prefer Obama being perceived as a weak President and a political coward because the votes aren’t there. Just look at all his accomplishments that the public doesn’t know or care about! And the Dems can’t fight back because the DC press will pounce and eat them alive, which is completely different from what the press is doing now.
Corner Stone
@MBunge:
Damn son. No. This should have been going the whole time. If the WH really wanted the votes on this then they should have had a drumbeat going during negotiations. Then when Kyl pulled this someone from the admin NOT Obama, should’ve come out and twisted the knife in Kyl.
Waiting until now is political incompetence. It makes you look weak and petulant. “Mister Kyl won’t play with us! He’s a poopyhead!”
cyntax
@MBunge:
Did I say rip Kyl a new one? No, I said shape the narrative.
This isn’t a binary sert of options with the only choices being Obama goes on a rant or Obama keeps trying to kick Lucy’s football.
How about the WH lining up a PR strategy for every important issue they’re working on with the Repubs on the off chance that the Repubs screw them again? Have the op/ed columns ready, have the experts ready, put some preemptive pressure on by getting people into the current news cycle talking about the importance of such-and-such issue before the vote. Build voter expectation that the issue should happen, that it will have x,y, and z salutory effect. Prep the ground rather than “getting blind-sided.”
Kryptik
@Lit3Bolt:
Pretty much this. This 11D chess bullshit is going nowhere. Conflict avoidance when faced with bullies does shit all in getting the bullies to back off, and all too often simply enables them to go further. The Republicans are being as brazen, as uncooperative, and as assholish as they’ve ever been, and yet, the Public wants them to be FURTHER right, while simultaneously believing the Dems are somehow psycho lib-nazi folk and demanding they move to the center or else.
Something has to give, someone in the leadership’s gotta dig their heels or else. They’re getting outplayed at all angles, not because the GOP’s simply better. They’re getting outplayed because the Dems either refuse to play to win, or as is with Blue Dogs and other folk, are more focused on shooting own goals to piss on the management.
mds
@MBunge:
Where are the 67 votes for passage, Mike? Come on, be responsible. Show your work.
Lit3Bolt
@cyntax:
Save your fingers, cyntax. Obama cannot and should not play politics, and the news cycle is entirely against Obama anyway, so since he can never win he should never try. Voter perception and “optics” and marketing is all an illusion that has no effect on polls…voters, in their heart of hearts, know Obama is a reasonable adult and this hedgehog strategy of doing absolutely nothing while being savaged by Repubs is a sure winning move.
Corner Stone
Ahhh, I love the smell of Firebagging in the morning.
Cole, were you and Jane just waiting for the announcement from Wills and Kate so y’all could go public with your own announcement and trump them?
Blogger Wedding of The Century!
MBunge
@Corner Stone: If the WH really wanted the votes on this then they should have had a drumbeat going during negotiations.
What the hell does “drumbeat” mean? How would said “drumbeat” have made Kyl any less likely to do what he’s doing or the media any more likely to treat it differently? You do realize that James Baker, Brent Scowcroft and George Schultz already support START? And that just last December Kyl went to floor of the Senate and said allowing the original START treaty to expire would be a terrible mistake?
Mike
cyntax
@Lit3Bolt:
[sigh] That does seem to be the “strategy.”
Maybe it’s time to mail a copy of the Art of War to the WH.
MBunge
@cyntax: No, I said shape the narrative.
Please provide examples of all the narratives you’ve shaped.
Mike
FlipYrWhig
What are we pretending to be mad about today? I can’t keep track. Is it some single word in some stupid media account about something? Y’all fuckers is crazy. I can’t keep up anymore.
MBunge
@mds: What are you talking about?
Mike
cyntax
Get them into the news cycle then. Talk about how the responsible Repubs from past admins want this. I mean do we just give up on everything until we have a majority again in both houses? I’m sure voters thought that worked great the last time.
Lit3Bolt
@Kryptik:
Right, and the press LOVES WINNERS and people who act like winners, like the sociopathic chutzpah of the Republicans. But God forbid you point this out because you’ll be accused of not clapping hard enough for Obama. And that makes you “unserious.”
cyntax
@MBunge:
Bite me. Provide examples of how sitting on your hands and getting rolled makes things better.
FlipYrWhig
Seems to me The Narrative is that Republicans keep stabbing Obama and Democrats in the back. People want them to engage, and they won’t. That’s the message. That’s what people see, over and over again.
But for some reason around here that’s a bad narrative, bad message, because something something weak leadership bully pulpit compromise Wolverines!
Again, for the same reason the DailyKos thread about the postponement of the meeting with the incoming leadership was also stupid, _nothing happened yet_. Republicans did something obnoxious. Who cares? Why is this surprising? What is supposed to be done? What is the magic bullet that stops this from happening? There isn’t one. Republicans are dicks, and Obama is going to let the Republicans keep being dicks, because you can’t stop a dick from being a dick.
Blame.
Republicans.
For it.
Make THAT the narrative.
You.
Yes, I mean you.
Corner Stone
@MBunge:
Sigh. Drumbeat means just what the fuck you think it does. Lots of little placed op-eds by people like Baker, Schultz or Scowcroft in different places. Gibbs talking about it in Press Briefings. Mentioning it in the Saturday radio address.
And then having all that ready for when Kyl, or whichever Republican, played obstructionist.
By now if the WH isn’t ready for hypocrisy from the R’s then wtf are they doing up there?
FlipYrWhig
@cyntax: How did they “get rolled”? What the fuck are you even talking about? Are you just mad because being mad feels good?
Mnemosyne
@tatere:
I shall add this to my list of Bush memes that people just copy and pasted Obama’s name onto. I was wondering when that one was going to be recycled.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone:
There have been MANY op-eds about it. Just fucking google it. Just because you don’t know about it doesn’t mean it hasn’t been done.
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
@cyntax: Yes. It’s that simple. David Stockman, Reagan’s OMB Director has come out forcefully against extending the Bush tax cuts and for raising taxes to get us out of the economic mess we’re in. His recent appearance on This Week and in other media venues has of course caused the Republicans in congress to rethink their strategy and back down on the Bush tax cuts, for the good of the nation.
cyntax
@FlipYrWhig:
It’s the Lucy syndrome. We get stories in the press about the WH “being blind-sided” rather than the WH having their experts ready to talk about how important the treaty is. It’s all well and fine to try to work with the Repubs but after they’ve fucked you over for the umpteenth time, maybe it would make sense to be prepared. Or not, and we’ll see how things go in 2012.
brendancalling
“What is the magic bullet that stops this from happening? There isn’t one. Republicans are dicks, and Obama is going to let the Republicans keep being dicks, because you can’t stop a dick from being a dick.”
Actually, you can. You can make it so painful for the dick to keep being a dick that the dick is forced to stop. Anyone who has fought back against a school bully knows that.
Culture of Truth
blindsided and angered the White House, which vowed to keep pressing for approval of the so-called New Start treaty. But the White House strategy had hinged entirely on winning over Mr. Kyl, and Democrats, who began scrambling for a backup plan, said they considered the chances of success slim.
Those incompetent chess-playing Obot boobs!
Wait, what is the factual basis for the NYTimes claim?
cyntax
@Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people):
Look you have to start somewhere. If you think what the WH has been doing is working and we should keep following that–great. If you’re not pleased, you might think differently. Making an attempt to draw attention to the repubs intransience and try to exact a price for it makes sense to me, but apparently not to you.
brendancalling
@Culture of Truth:
here:
The White House had high expectations for the treaty’s passage, with the president mentioning START in his meeting with reporters aboard Air Force One on Sunday as he returned to Washington from his 10-day trip to Asia.
The political fallout for the White House is severe, even though it could be potentially just as severe for Republicans. The treaty offered promise at a time when the president needs to start chalking up bipartisan accomplishments. And Kyl’s move could signal a Republican willingness to scuttle other measures—something that could backfire on Republicans.
Kyl’s opposition caught the White House by surprise. They believed that they had secured his support through promises to enhance the country’s nuclear arsenal. The flatfooted reaction doesn’t bode well for the upcoming session, in which the administration will need keen intelligence on who stands where. If the White House is to succeed in getting its version of the Bush tax cuts renewed or in abolishing don’t ask, don’t tell in the military, it can’t afford to be blindsided. On the other hand, Republicans need to avoid looking mercurial.
WyldPirate
@DaBomb:
Th8is dumbass statement reminds me of “if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it…” saying.
How are all of those “accomplishments” working out for Obama, DaBomb?
He cut taxes, but nearly everyone thinks he raised them. He instituted HCR of sorts, but most people think it’s awful and should be repealed because they’re idiots, think he’s “getting between my doctor and me” and getting “gubmint hands in my Medicare”, and rot like that. And did I say the Rethugs are going to repeal a good deal of HCR.
Then we have the economy, Sure, the bailout kept millions more from being laid off. That doesn’t fucking matter, millions more did get laid off and are still out of work and the economy is fucking stagnant. And who do the people see getting helped? The very goddamned assholes that crashed the economy in the first place.
You can say “circle jerk” all you want and yak about “accomplishments”, but the American people aren’t buying what Obama is trying to sell; they’re fucking blaming him for the problems”.
JAHILL10
@Culture of Truth: Thank you! We have a winner!
Hey ding-dongs! WE are the ones being played. Unsourced, non-quotes about the WH reaction, as though the WH were a person is not rant worthy, unless of course, your faith in the fairness, honesty and good reporting skills of the dead tree media are MUCH stronger than mine.
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
@cyntax: I think the point I’m making is (1) the media are mostly not on board with honest coverage, (2) the Republicans choose to ignore their own moderates and (3) voters reward them for it.
I am all for the WH trying any strategy that works, short of buying its own media outlets.
FlipYrWhig
@brendancalling: Um, the only way a bully stops being a bully is that he gets tired of it. You can fight back against a bully, sure, and sometimes that makes things much, much worse. Or you fight back and you both get suspended. “Fighting back” is not a panacea.
Enough bully analogies. I don’t even buy the “not fighting” point that everyone on the would-be left always brings up. I think it’s more like the old basketball rules before the shot clock where one team can just keep passing it back and forth and back and forth and never really play the game the right way, no matter how much the fans boo, no matter how mad the other team’s players get, and if you just get sick of it and pummel them, _you_ get penalized.
@cyntax: But nothing even happened! Kyl made an announcement. The WH was blind-sided, some reporter says, by, seemingly, the timing of the announcement. Who cares? Why is this bad? This is thin gruel.
WyldPirate
@FlipYrWhig:
Yep. and that message translates into “weakness” and “Obama is the Rethugs bitch”.
That message is sticking, too. It’s one that the Rethugs have always tried to sell, but they are getting an inordinate amount of help from the Dems as a whole and the Obama administration in particular.
FlipYrWhig
@brendancalling:
If only they had tried the “drumbeat” theory offered by Corner Stone.
@WyldPirate: Maybe it’s people who insist on treating Republican betrayal and nonsense as Democrats’ fault that make it stick the way you claim it does.
Maude
@MBunge:
You’ve said it well. Thanks.
brendancalling
@FlipYrWhig:
whatever you say man, whatever you say.
my personal experience begs to differ. you must have gotten the shit kicked out of you a lot when you were a kid. me, i fought back: it took a little while, but you kick a bully in the balls enough, he stops.
i think it’s a bit too late though. Obama and the Dems should have been on offense a long time ago.
DaBomb
@WyldPirate: I can tell you right now loser… I have no use for your ignorant ODS.
You can just keep stepping.
Mnemosyne
@JAHILL10:
I still can’t figure out why people who complained about the right-wing slant of the media all through the Bush years now find every word to be Gospel Truth. Did they think that Obama’s election changed the NY Times editorial board, too?
There used to be one honest newspaper: the Wall Street Journal. Their reporting had to be accurate so businesspeople could make decisions. That’s why Murdoch bought it out — can’t have an honest source of news trying to get the word out that, hey, maybe the healthcare bill isn’t going to form death panels.
Kryptik
@FlipYrWhig:
@brendancalling:
There is a way to “fight back” without throwing a punch: ostracization. That’s what’s meant by “making it painful”. Taking away both incentive and reward for their bullying by showing consequences past just what the initial victim is capable of meting out. But that’s not what’s being done here, because we get a victim who blames himself for the bullying. And that only gives more incentive for the bully to move on and keep going, and for the community to ignore it, since ‘hey, the nerd says it’s his own damn fault, so be it’.
Ash Can
Whew. “Smoking crack rock” is right. Perfect title for this thread.
Mnemosyne
@Kryptik:
And how do you propose to do that? All a Republican has to do is claim he has a sob story about how mmmmeeeaaaannnnn the Democrats are and he gets 24/7 news coverage.
cyntax
@Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people):
I don’t disagree with that, but I think the WH has to make a more robust attempt to get their narrative into the cycle. It’s not a silver bullet and it may not work, but at this point, pushing on multiple fronts and from various angles seems the only chance of eking out some wins.
@FlipYrWhig:
OK, you see it as thin gruel and I see it as part of pattern they’ve had trouble with for awhile now. I understand their reluctance to let winning the news cycle eclipse a focus on longer term strategy issues. But ignoring the news cycle almost entirely doesn’t work either. I think they have to do a better job of making the short term news cycle work to the advatnge of their longer term strategies.
tworivers
@Wiesman:
yeah, the rants are where it’s at
FlipYrWhig
@cyntax:
But that’s my issue with this whole thread, and with the thread no DailyKos yesterday about the canceled meeting. Has anything happened that actually fits a “pattern”? I don’t think it has. Instead we’re getting each other whipped into a frenzy by perceiving the emergence of the “pattern” in advance.
Basically this whole thread is based on the word “blind-sided,” which is some characterization by some reporter, and we _know_ they don’t do their jobs very well, and we have to stop falling for that.
chopper
@WyldPirate:
that’s the wrong question. the right question is, ‘how are all those accomplishments working out for the american people’?
in the real world we don’t measure accomplishments by the political traction you get out of them. that’s what republicans do. in the real world we measure them by what effect they actually have.
and obama’s accomplishments have been pretty effective, all in all.
DaBomb
@chopper: that’s the wrong question. the right question is, ‘how are all those accomplishments working out for the american people’?
in the real world we don’t measure accomplishments by the political traction you get out of them. that’s what republicans do. in the real world we measure them by what effect they actually have.
and obama’s accomplishments have been pretty effective, all in all.
DaBomb
@DaBomb: Block quite fail. * SIGH*
FlipYrWhig
@brendancalling:
I think liberal machismo is pointless. The “schoolyard bully” paradigm is just another version of “balls.” Why doesn’t the president have balls? Balls fix everything!
Also, some bullies will kill or rape you, so let’s not get into a whole real-world real-life “bully” thing either.
I have a friend who said she learned rapidly upon becoming a parent that you can tell your kids to do a lot of things, but the one thing that never works is telling your kids to sleep. There really are limits on what shows of strength and force can accomplish.
Again, if you’ve ever been in a committee or done a group project, it doesn’t take that many dickbag people to bring the whole thing to a halt and make everyone look bad unless you do what they want. How do you deal with that? What if you rage at them and really get in their faces and they still say, “I see what you mean, but I’m not gonna”? “We’ll all look bad and probably lose the account.” “I’m not worried about that.”
The only thing that works to arrest that dynamic is… guilt, or conscience, or grown-up-ness. Republicans don’t have any of these things. They used to. Then they started voting them out. They can be dicks forever.
I agree with you that something is going to have to be done to stop it. I just don’t think it’s obvious what that is, or that “fighting back” is a good name for it, any more than hitting your kid is a good way to get him to go to sleep.
chopper
@FlipYrWhig:
the weakness in the ‘schoolyard bully’ analogy is that the local bully doesn’t have the ability to hold your grades hostage if he wants to.
Parrotlover77
I believe the administration was surprised as much as I believe repubs will ever negotiate in good faith.
But @Suck It Up is 1000% right. where the hell else are the votes going to come from?
This is all about messaging. I’m not super-excited about the victim stance they are taking, but I also believe the bully pulpit is a bullshit exercise too.
Coming out and saying they never expected Kyl to keep his word would just lead to more breathless articles about the Administration’s arrogance.
As usual. a no-win situation.
Can we now resume attacking the real problem causers again? You know, the Republicans???
cyntax
@FlipYrWhig:
Fair enough, but when most people don’t know what Obama has done and how it’s benefitted them, then I’m saying yes, always losing the news cycle does fit a pattern, and yes, that pattern is problematic.
So I guess we’ll see. Anyway, gotta run, but I appreciate your willingness to discuss the issue.
General Stuck
@aimai:
Cool, I no longer need to even comment and make my points. aimai has helpfully volunteered to provide my position on stuff – of course, it’s inaccurate, but this is blogging after all. carry on ms wisdom. I will have a spot of tea.
aimai
@FlipYrWhig:
So do it. The START treaty has been on the table for a really long time–it is coming up now, in the lame duck, because it got backburnered along with the rest of Obama’s agenda during the two previous years. We have this discussion all the fucking time: if you want to express shock and horror at intransigence go ahead and do it. You need to, otherwise the voters don’t know what is going on. I have this conversation all the fucking time with the only republicans in my husband’s family–people who probably voted for Obama last time around–they don’t get long term strategy they get outrage and jumping up and down. These are exactly the people for whom Rove said “TV with the sound off.” They don’t have a clue why Obama can’t get his agenda through because the Dems aren’t on TV every living second blaming the Republicans for being intransigent. Saying “wow, we really tried” isn’t good enough–it doesn’t mean anything to the voters. You’ve got to be screaming at the top of your lungs. I’m sorry if that’s undignified but that’s the fact. Dignity, calm–it doesn’t sell with the voters.
aimai
aimai
@FlipYrWhig:
Ok, I’m reading backwards through the thread so I think here’s a kind of important analogy fail: The republican party and the voters and the actual Republican representatives are not the same thing–and different Democratic strategies are needed to deal with each subset of the category “Republican.” But none of them–none of them–are analagous to “children” and dealing with them can never be analagized to dealing with fractious children. I don’t want Obama to express shock and anger *to Kyl* over this backstabbing because I think its irrelevant–Kyl is an interested party to negotiations who acted in his own interest. The only reason to attack Kyl publicly, or any other Senator/Congressman is to bring pressure from voters to bear on that individual, or to set up the larger narrative for the voters for the next national elections.
aimai
FlipYrWhig
@aimai: I’m sorry, I don’t think it works that way. I don’t think that screaming about intransigence works either. It looks like “squabbling” or being a “crybaby.” Obama’s public appearances, in the run-up to the election, _did_ depict Republicans as obstructing everything, carping from the sidelines, the whole deal. That didn’t take either. Whatever is going to be involved in solving this messaging/communications/narrative/PR issue, it’s not easy, and I think it’s foolish to pretend like it is, or to act as though they haven’t tried.
Lit3Bolt
@FlipYrWhig:
Yes, we are the politicians responsible for the Democrats failings.
You guys make no fucking sense whatsoever. Since when is it a voter’s full time job, nay DUTY, to fucking clap for Obama? How is Obama getting fucking punted around by DC and taking all the blame on himself our fault?
This is the argument we’ve been having for years:
“Wow, Obama’s looking bad over and over again on TV.”
BJ: “You fool you’ve been gulled by the Republicans/DC press/Blue Dogs so we’ll blame you for the unforgivable sin of party infighting.”
“Uh, that’s the point, because most of the nation doesn’t read blogs or understand what’s going on and simply reacts to the news cycle.”
BJ: “We don’t play politics, we exist in the magical real world and the American people will spontaneously understand that the Republicans are evil despite their massive propaganda campaign.”
“That’s tragic because the Republicans are kicking the shit out of the Democrats despite doing absolutely nothing because they’re winning the news cycle.”
BJ: “The news cycle can never be won and Obama has no influence over Congress and the media. And all Democratic losses are your fault despite any voting, donating, or calling you’ve done.”
“Um, ok.”
General Stuck
@FlipYrWhig:
Now THIS is my actual position on the matter at hand. What about no drama Obama do folks not get. This is who you voted for, and not emoting to whatever degree while saying something, is not the same thing as not saying that something.
Emerald
@piratedan:
I’d bet my house that the WH understands far better than any blogger just what it’s up against.
There’s a difference between bloggers and the WH, however: The WH has to govern.
Complicates the issue somewhat.
tatere
@Mnemosyne: er, your point being? yes, it’s a damn shame to see a similar blindness to fault in this administration as we saw in the last one. the internal dynamics are quite different but the end result is all too much the same. but it’s the kind of thing that happens all the time in organizations, hardly the sole province of the White House.
General Stuck
@Lit3Bolt:
Did you escape from FDL? Should we call someone?
Standard firebagger tripe, and quasi racist drivel on how Obama isn’t adequate enough to stand up to the bully republicans. And that is why the wingnuts won. It is all a prog fantasy, beginning with the data that demonstrates the wingers won for the exact opposite reasons. Or, Obama passed HCR, the first dem to do so in a hundred years, not because he is getting punked by the repubs, who have been mostly irrelevant up until now. And as was already said, talking about bipartisanship, and actually offering the wingers concessions are two different things. Obama has offered concessions to get his 60th vote, but with other dems in the senate mostly. So the Obama fail narrative coming out of the netroots of a “weak” Obama is so utterly full of shit, it is laughable.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig:
I feel kind of sorry for you. You’re unable to differentiate between a strategy and execution of a strategy. Poor man.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig:
Yes, now where is the actual execution of why I advocated for the op-eds in the first place?
They are meaningless unless they set up the counterpunch.
Corner Stone
@chopper: HCR doesn’t go into effect for the majority of people until 2014. And that’s if it survives in anything close to its present form.
IOW, if President Obama can’t differentiate accomplishments in a way that people reward him and the D party, we may not see some of the accomplishments come to fruition.
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
Yeah, they are so irrelevant that they picked up 60+ house seats and 6 Senate seats and held a lot of legislation and appointments hostage while Dems had all three branches of government.
Dear FSM help us all when the Rethugs become “relevant”.
FlipYrWhig
@Lit3Bolt:
No, this is the argument we’ve been having for years.
“Wow, Important Policy isn’t happening the way I want it to.”
“#*()&%%()*& SELLOUT COMPROMIses oBAMbi’s a wimp what’s the matter why not fight fihGT the important thing is to fight because i’m a hardcore tough customer unlike Obama oh no boohoo waah waah i’m so disillusioned i’m never voting again” [door slams, Fall Out Boy plays]
“Um, so, is there something else you would like to see done?”
[door slams] “yES fight FIGHT More please don;’t compromise again Democratz SUCK where’s my sharpie so I can scribbLE ON some Obarry bumper stickers I woN’T CLAP LOUDER dammit Donnie McClurkin.”
“That doesn’t sound like much of a strategy to get Important Policy passed.”
General Stuck
@WyldPirate:
Your comment is totally devoid of any understanding of my comment, of what I said. And you are not alone. A party can and did in this case, lose an election because of something they accomplished, versus the other way around. All the exit polling date has led to such a conclusion of passing HCR pissing off a lot of the opposition, and creating some that didn’t previously exist. What? you all still thinking wingnuts got off their couches in large numbers to go vote because Obama was incompetent, and dems voted in normal numbers for a mid term for any other reason than they voted in normal numbers for a mid term?.
Mnemosyne
@tatere:
My point being that every single one of the faults attributed to Bush has been picked up, brushed off, and applied to Obama, no matter how ill-fitting. See also the whole “all he does is watch ESPN!” meme that’s starting to make the rounds on lefty blogs.
It’s especially funny that you claimed to believe that he never admits mistakes when reacting to the NY Times story where he, you know, admitted a mistake. But apparently since he didn’t admit to the specific mistakes that you wanted him to admit to, it doesn’t count.
WyldPirate
@chopper:
In principle, chopper, I don’t disagree with you. However, the “effect” of said policies and the perception of them are what matters despite our connection with reality.
Take the stimulus for instance. You and I both have enough sense to realize that had Obama not acted–things would have been much, much worse. I think we would be sitting at 12-13% unemployment now and talking about 90 new Rethugs in the HR and the new Rethug majority in the Senate.
The problem is, Obama went small and he didn’t go out of the gate large in what he asked for. He negotiated with himself out of the gate with his first real initiative–and arguably the most important one.
That is the problem with many of the things he did and has done. Moreover, you can’t sell to the public things “could have been much worse” when they are already in the crapper for tens of millions.
The same goes with HCR. Yes, some things have been wonderful that were passed, but insurance premiums skyrocketed this year. Most of the benefits have yet to kick in and there is no clear plan at the state level for how things will work or even if they can unless the economy straightens up. It does nothing for the millions that are out of work NOW and are losing or have lost health insurance. Most of the kids other than a tiny handful, won’t get sick while they are allowed to stay on Mom and Dad’s insurance until they are 26.
lacp
I’m not an Obama fan, but he’s not dumb and he’s not naive. No doubt he’s pissed, but he probably anticipated Kyl’s move. Hope he told the Russians in advance not to hold their breath waiting for START to happen.
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
I understand the demographics quite well in this past election, General Stuck. It is like most mid-terms, but with extra “oomph” from the pissed off old white folks crowd. With a smidgen more of extra disillusionment from the DFH and usual more casual Dem voters.
That is not what I was commenting on, though. I was commenting on the “relevance” of the Rethugs and countering your claim that they were “irrelevant” until recently. Ask yourself what motivated all of those pissed off haters and who fanned the flames that made this mid-term such an historic landslide favoring the Rethugs.
You’ve gotta give the devil his due–the Rethugs got them fired up. It doesn’t matter that they did the “firing up” with lies, bullshit and racism with a huge assist from the supremes, big money and Fox Corp. The result is the same.
General Stuck
@WyldPirate:
What I meant by using the term “relevant” was in regards to the actual legislation that got passed during this past 2 years. Except for one or two exceptions, at least up until Brown took office in the senate, dems were the ballgame, and could and did pass meaningful legislation without a single republican vote, and whatever meaningful concessions that were made by Obama was to other dems in the caucus. Not republicans.
As far as the wingers being “electorally” viable, I am as surprised as anyone they bounced back as quick as they did, but it wasn’t because of what Obama didn’t do, it was because of what he accomplished, mostly without their serious participation, and certainly without GOP votes, usually. There are also other reasons for this, of course, but not because Obama didn’t emo enough. And not because he didn’t “stick” it to the wingnuts more. That is my point.
So legislatively, they have not been all that relevant, but will be again starting in jan.
Corner Stone
@lacp:
I agree with you. President Obama is not dumb, he’s not naive, and he’s not weak or spineless.
So my question is what next?
brendancalling
@FlipYrWhig:
you have obviously never heard of LBJ.
lacp
@Corner Stone: Offer to make Kyl Ambassador to Russia?
FlipYrWhig
@General Stuck:
Yes, I agree, and it’s been one of the truly frustrating things to see when, over the past few days, all we keep getting from the big blogs–even the more sensible ones; even John himself!–is Sturm und Drang over how Obama somehow “looks weak” by doing things that… um… something. When he’s rebuffed, he looks weak, I guess. I don’t understand how that works.
I see that it would be _gratifying_ to see him stick it to the wingnuts. I just don’t see that it’s a _winning_ strategy. It seems like you’d just open up a second front of people saying that he’s “losing control” or returning to “partisan acrimony,” and then some smidgen of the nine-percent brigades of people who disapprove of Obama because he’s not liberal enough _might_, _grudgingly_, think slightly less badly of the guy. That strain of complaint has been loud–but it’s tremendously overrepresented on the blogs.
Jed Lewison, BTW, has been horrible on DailyKos lately, and that whole place is devolving all over again into dick-swinging contests over who’s tough and who will least tolerate being “disrespected.” Like 12-year-old white kids listening to too much nineties hip-hop.
FlipYrWhig
@brendancalling: Oh, Jesus Christ, LBJ again. You do know that in his time there were liberal Republicans, right? And that to get all the Great Society stuff through he still had to accept incremental progress and in effect write off the entire South for two generations and counting?
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
I can meet you half-way on this issue for sure.
I don’t deny that what stoked the Rethugs “relevance” was their virulent antipathy for both Obama and some of his legislative goals. OTOH, as much as i hate to give them props, they were and are masterful at stonewalling legislation and watering down what does get passed down.
This is what pisses me off so bad. I get sick of being accused of being a “firebagger” or an “Obama” hater or GOPper paid troll. It isn’t so. I just want to see wome fucking recognition out of the people on our side that they are dealing with disingenuous thugs that don’t have the country’s best interests at heart. I want to see the Dems quit pulling the submissive act over everything and rolling over on their backs and baring their throat. They seem incapable of doing that.
General Stuck
@FlipYrWhig:
Actually, he does, and has, but it is cloaked in a cool demeanor that passes by a lot of frantic liberals. Just ask the wingnuts about the healthcare talk he gave at their retreat, and later, the gathering called to revive HCR. They have gotten little from the guy, which has sparked much of the rage. Obama has misread the playing field at times, but usually recovers, but there are always some of his so called supporters that take great pleasure in pointing out these stumbles, day after day, month after month, for whatever reason.
And Cole, like always, is in a perpetual state of bewilderment about how dems and liberals operate, , and where he fits in to it all . After he ponders things for a while, he usually gets the drift.
FlipYrWhig
@WyldPirate: I think you should consider that what to you might look “submissive” is in fact a grudging and mostly hollow pro-forma gesture. Having gone through the motions of looking “bipartisan,” Democrats should then be able to clarify that they play nicely and Republicans throw tantrums. But–and this goes back to what aimai was saying–that’s actually difficult to pull off; and, on top of that, I am not confident that the spectacle of Democrats fighting is something that plays to the media or public any better than the spectacle of Democrats being grown-ups while Republicans fling poo.
And I don’t think it helps at all to cherry-pick moments where Democrats look “submissive,” than complain about why they’re always being submissive, as opposed to taking those moments and shouting to high heaven about how Republicans act like babies. Why not reinforce the “D = grown-up, R = spoiled rotten child” narrative? Instead we’ve had a week of fever-pitch Republicans and “liberal” outsiders _both_ saying that Obama is weak and wussy and never fights. What does that accomplish?
hildebrand
@WyldPirate: And yet all you ever do is attack Obama – never the Republicans. Would that you trained your ire on those actually thwarting those things which you say you want.
I don’t want you to clap louder, I want you to piss on those miscreants who continue to stall and say ‘no’ to everything.
But you don’t, you spend all of your time on this blog tearing down those theoretically on your side because they are not fighting the fight as you want them to. You have quit the field and don’t even realize it.
WyldPirate
@FlipYrWhig:
Look, FlipYrWhig, to me, it seems like the Dems never follow through on either approach–either the ranting and raving, kick-ass, take-no-names fighters or the cool, level-headed “adults” in the house.
Obama has been playing the latter, and it doesn’t seem to have been very effective. Sure, he’s gotten some major–check that, fucking historic—passed. Moreover, his actions on the economy helped save us from a full-blown Depression, IMO. But to what end, in this recent election?
The problem is that it just doesn’t seem to ever translate in the Dems favor. Even worse, it (either approach) is often used against them. While the Rethugs get away with a claim of either “approach” while doing the opposite.
I dunno, man. I’m so sick of this “down the rabbit hole with Alice”,, “tripping on acid”, approach to what passes for “reality” in this country. It’s been going on for three decades now, but it seems to have intensified since ’94 and more specifically, since post 9/11.
Whomever made that statement to Suskind in Snow’s book was right. The Rethugs do “create their own reality”. The trouble is, so many people are buying it today and this shit is beginning to destroy our country.
Of all people, Tom Friedman actually had a decent column about this very subject today
FlipYrWhig
@WyldPirate: It’s because Democrats use tactics to try to accomplish things, and the fact of accomplishing something is sure to rub at least a few stakeholders the wrong way. So no matter what narrative/communication/framing/PR whatever strategy they employ, it’s going to have the same effect.
That’s why I think this constant maelstrom of fighting over narratives and meta-narratives is, ultimately, pointless. And I think that the public truly doesn’t like the way Republicans play games instead of knocking it off and getting to work, but it’s _very hard_ to point out that Republican game-playing is the root of all frustration.
And we keep figuring that because we’re clever, creative people we can certainly figure out a better way to communication and Set The Narrative and all the rest. But no one has cracked that one yet.
The Republicans under Bush did a better job of setting up a story about Democratic obstructionism (“up or down vote,” all of that), but the real audience for it, the group that gets manipulated by that kind of theater, is… conservative Democratic politicians, who get freaked out by the prospect of scathing negative ads. Republicans don’t fear those, so they don’t budge.
That’s a very _deep-set_ problem of Democratic politics to solve, and it’s not “narrative” or “tone” or displays of emotion that’s going to do it.
jinxtigr
@Xenos:
Xenos had it in post 5. Assuming this all isn’t simply made up and does originate from the White House, I say: they HAVE to claim surprise and annoyance, even if they had every expectation this would happen, because to do otherwise would be saying outright, “The other side are untrustworthy nihilists out to destroy the country”.
Which happens to be true, and WE know that, but let’s look at how the statement plays to other groups:
Teabaggers: haha! Got you! We win! We’re going to do it lots more because you played right into our hands, ha ha! Score! (note: this is a minority section who are not in play politically- they are already committed, even more doggedly than Republicans)
‘centrists’: Oh noes! That seemed important! What are these Republicans to attack such important things, untrustworthy nihilists out to destroy the country?
THAT is the payoff.
There’s a concept called- hell, I can’t find a thing about it now, but the idea is that Obama routinely considers the effects of his actions on others assuming them to be intelligent and able to think more than one level deep. Doesn’t apply to the teabaggers but they are not in play. ‘centrists’ (anybody not fiercely taking sides for whatever reason) are. Obama knows what will happen if he gives these guys rope- he’s probably only giving them enough to hang themselves, but give it he will, assuming that people can spot bullshit when it’s clear enough.
People always expect everybody else EXCEPT THEM are fools able to be tricked by the silliest bullshit. Major changes- dotcom crash, the Bush economic crash, swings to both left and right wing- happen when a lot of people simultaneously go “Well, most people are idiots- but I’M out”.
Obama playing surprised and annoyed is more likely to turn people against the tea partiers (I mean IN congress) than pointing a finger of wrath and ‘J’ACCUSE!’. It’s not his job to be partisan as hell, but it is the job of our partisan government, and Obama stands to split off Republicans with less of the crazy thanks to the escalations.
You think they will all remain a brick wall of lockstep marching even following the Tea Party orders, but I’m telling you: fuck no. Not Tea Party orders. Those guys are not supposed to be in charge! Consider this a case of orchestrated confusion of leadership in the Republicans, with Obama soliciting the most extreme over-reaching by the Tea Partiers in order to shatter the Republican lockstep and force them not to agree. To do this he has to work a broken-wing strategy and profess hurt feelings and injury so they get a taste of blood. He needs them to do stuff the regular Republicans won’t stand for. It’s a really interesting challenge :)
chopper
@WyldPirate:
see, you think like a republican. you care more about the ‘optics’ than substantive policy. yes, the stimulus should have been bigger. HCR should have been bigger. at the same time, reality can’t be suspended when you want to ‘go large’.
they are still big accomplishments for a president. the biggest in a generation or more (much more with regards to health care). those things matter, and the metric we should be measuring them by isn’t in how well the president or the press sells them to the people.
as an aside, i’ll note that pretty much every pol i’ve ever seen who’s been a ‘natural salesman’ and is great at talking themselves up is usually devoid of actual accomplishments. they talk more than they walk.
pattonbt
@WyldPirate: The reason people call you a “firebagger” is because you are a frustrated, broken record of “Obama FAIL!”. These are frustrating times, but they always have been. The reason they are more frustrating now is that the problems we face are greater than those we have faced in a long time.
The American empire is dying (I do not think that is a bad thing) and people are having to adjust to a world where they they have to take “no” for an answer or have to accept that maybe, just maybe we need to look at the way other people in other countries (Heaven Forfend!) do things and build those into our system. (by the way, I am not saying you are like this in any way, this mainly applies to our common foe).
It’s going to get much darker than it is now before it gets even remotely better. Sure, maybe I’m a cynic, but you can’t unwind 70 years of USA, USA, USA, USA!!!!11!! in two years. People will not have it.
I’m frustrated too, very much so, but I really think we are pretty much in a no win situation and I believe (rightly or wrongly) that going full “Obama FAIL!” is about the least productive way to go with my bitching. Now, do I want him to fight harder (or more brutally and cutting), sure. But I think if he does we will be in the “angry black man” territory and that is a place I know I do not want him to be. Just look at Rev Wright. By all accounts a fabulous well intentioned, patriotic, loving, caring man. But a firebrand. And this guy is now a demon.
I do not believe in any of 11 D chess shit, but I am moderately happy with what has been accomplished so far. But I will admit I am truly flummoxed about how to proceed now. I think Amai (spelling?) is probably right. As much as I hate to admit it I think the best thing to do is write off the next two years and try and give the R’s as much rope to let their freak flag fly. Let the R’s govern and let Obama veto. Let the R’s investigate and let Obama stay above it. It will be frustrating, but that’s what I think. For whatever that is worth.