Who are you calling gay, smart guy?
Daniel Larison on the idea that Beckstock was an awesome moment of Mormon-evangelical unity:
In other words, when Mormons and evangelicals are at their worst and are indulging their least admirable tendencies to idolize the country at the expense of their religious teachings, there is a chance for them to find common ground. If you think that a serious religious revival in America might have something to do with a spirit of repentance and humility rather than with an extravaganza of validation and national self-congratulation, that is really a very damning indictment of what Beck is doing. As Joe Carter correctly says, “As Moore notes, the problem isn’t really Beck. The problem is believers trading the true faith for the syncretism of Christian-flavored civic religion.”
[....]
P.S. After I mentioned this post to my wife, she said she thought Beck reminded her a bit of Gaius Baltar, and this comparison made some sense. Inasmuch as he is simply validating his audience’s way of life, it does seem to be very much like Baltar’s “we are all perfect just as we are,” which makes the entire exercise that much worse.
That’s what a lot of what modern conservatism is about, taking people’s worst impulses (xenophobia, irrationality, selfishness), wrapping them in a flag, taping the flag to a bible, and telling people that their irrationality and xenophobia are exactly what make Jeebus and America so great. If you don’t agree, then you’re a cafeteria Christian or a God-hating Alinskyite.
I’m not a sci-fi person so I was disappointed to learn that Gaius Baltar was a charater on Battlestar Gallactica and not some obscure figure from early Christianity that I could read more about Wikipedia.
August 31, 2010 4:46 pm
Posted in: Bring on the Brawndo!, Burkean bells
101 Comments
101 Responses
amorphous - August 31, 2010 | 4:48 pm · Link
But I do like the fact that Larison married a woman who is into BSG…
moe99 - August 31, 2010 | 4:48 pm · Link
But Gaius Baltar is spot on, except for the fact that he is far better looking than Glenn Beck could ever be, even in his wildest dreams.
Pancake - August 31, 2010 | 4:55 pm · Link
LOL So totally silly as to be beyond parody.
JR - August 31, 2010 | 4:55 pm · Link
Beck’s more closely analogous to a hybrid of Bishop Prang from “It Can’t Happen Here” and Archbishop Fulton Sheen (whom you CAN read about on Wikipedia!). In fact, he’s completely swiped Prang’s dogma and Sheen’s shtick (right down to the chalkboard).
DFS - August 31, 2010 | 4:56 pm · Link
Ever since he got back from vacation, Larison, in his eminently Christian sort of way, has been mauling Douthat every time he opens his mouth. Fun stuff.
Bob L - August 31, 2010 | 4:58 pm · Link
Worth noting thatt Battlestar Galatica is based on The Book of Mormon. Interesting comparison between Beck and Baltar. Considering how Beck seems to operate you got to wonder if this is no accident. After all Beck has admitted to basing his media persona on Howard Beale from Network. Why would he just stop there?
TooManyJens - August 31, 2010 | 4:59 pm · Link
@JR: ...the Archbishop Fulton Sheen that Martin Sheen named himself after? I’m not seeing a lot of similarity, myself. Is it just because he did a lot of TV and radio?
kdaug - August 31, 2010 | 4:59 pm · Link
You, sir, have thrown down the gauntlet. I cannot not comment herein.
Battlestar Galactica was not a “sci-fi” show. It was, and remains, a highly intelligent meditation on what it means to be human, on the influence of military vs. civilian government, and the scope of religion and spirituality – and lack thereof – in the decisions we make.
It’s least episodes were when NBC/Universal requested that the writers made it more “episodic”, so as to attract more casual viewers.
The best episodes… speak for themselves.
freelancer - August 31, 2010 | 5:01 pm · Link
Beck is more the reincarnation of Joseph Smith than he is Gaius Baltar.
HyperIon - August 31, 2010 | 5:03 pm · Link
syncretism
Syncretism is the attempt to reconcile disparate or contrary beliefs, often while melding practices of various schools of thought.
Larison never disappoints. Sometimes he confuses me but he never disappoints.
Mark S. - August 31, 2010 | 5:04 pm · Link
OK, I don’t feel bad about not knowing who the fuck that is.
On the larger note, I am shocked that Beck offers a stupid version of Christianity.
buckyblue - August 31, 2010 | 5:07 pm · Link
When I was growing up in Evangelical land, a lot of Sunday nights were dedicated to the ‘why Mormons are a cult and they’re all going to jail’ sermons (from Dad). We still see this in Evangelicals distrust of Romney, so why do they listen to Beck when he talks about God? They’ve traded their Bible believing in for Constitution believing.
El Cid - August 31, 2010 | 5:08 pm · Link
Gosh, if only we were a nation with a history of public agitators who pushed for politico-ethnic causes in the guise of religious mobilizing! Then we could have analogs for the most unprecedentisted thing in the universe with this Glenn Beck rally.
Southern Beale - August 31, 2010 | 5:08 pm · Link
Curious how many Beck fans even know he’s Mormon? He doesn’t talk about it much.
Sentient Puddle - August 31, 2010 | 5:08 pm · Link
The editor part of me just died a little reading that.
OK, that aside, I don’t really have much to add other than to +1 Larison. I don’t really buy into this idea that there’s any sort of great religious awakening happening in America now. If anything, that would have been 2003 or 2004. I’m just of the opinion that Beck co-opted the whole idea of religion for this rally when he thought he needed some sort of a hook.
Or to riff off of someone else commenting earlier today, Glenn Beck doesn’t know what Glenn Beck is doing up until about five minutes before he does it.
beltane - August 31, 2010 | 5:10 pm · Link
@buckyblue: It would seem they are as selective in their Constitution believing as they were in their Bible believing. A lot of cherry-picked, out of context phrases that distort the meaning of the original document in question.
Napoleon - August 31, 2010 | 5:13 pm · Link
Funny, I was reading David Halberstam’s “The Children” about the Civil Rights Movement and that description was pretty close to the description he gave of the worldview of the guy who was the publisher of one of Nashville’s two papers, the conservative one circa 1962 (Halberstam started his career at the liberal paper in Nashville).
licensed to kill time - August 31, 2010 | 5:13 pm · Link
I thought Gaius Baltar was one of the Coneheads.
Oh wait, that was Beldar. Consume mass quantities!
daveNYC - August 31, 2010 | 5:14 pm · Link
I’d absoulutely suggest Netflixing Season One of the new BSG. It won’t give you a damn bit of insight as far as Beck’s ‘Gaiusness’, but it is one hell of a good run of episodes.
And on the show, Gaius is a genius. Beck in real life? Not so much.
Bill Arnold - August 31, 2010 | 5:15 pm · Link
That was a wicked wikipedia joke, LOL. 8 screens, 5900 words.
MacsenMifune - August 31, 2010 | 5:16 pm · Link
I always felt the Wachowski brothers base the character of Lewis Prothero, “The Voice of London” in V for Vendetta off of Beckers.
Zifnab - August 31, 2010 | 5:16 pm · Link
@Sentient Puddle:
They do this every two or three years. A break-out preacher pulls together a flock of increasingly old and increasingly red-neck die-hard religious nutters, declares “A great awakening is upon us!”, insists that everyone agrees with him, and gets caught in a highly embarrassing sex scandal several years later.
Without a massive political and social pressure to attend church, the practice is dying out. People just have better things to do with their Sunday mornings.
JR - August 31, 2010 | 5:18 pm · Link
@TooManyJens: Tell me that this doesn’t look familiar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEVi1kw1YL8
The chalkboard, the slow close-up, the new and scary terms to define old and established concepts, etc. Same shtick, different spin.
beltane - August 31, 2010 | 5:21 pm · Link
@Zifnab: I was consoled by the age of Beck’s audience. The fastest growing religion in the USA, especially among the young, is no religion (not necessarily atheism) and I saw no evidence that Beck’s rally changed this. Redneck Jesus might not be going away anytime soon, but he’s no exactly attracting a lot of new followers.
Xanthippas - August 31, 2010 | 5:23 pm · Link
Good stuff. You guys could just save yourself the trouble though and have a post that sits permanently atop Balloon Juice that links to Eunomia and says “Read everything Daniel Larison writes.” Even when I disagree, I never fail to learn something from him. He’s a good one.
As to this: “I’m not a sci-fi person so I was disappointed to learn that Gaius Baltar was a charater on Battlestar Gallactica and not some obscure figure from early Christianity that I could read more about Wikipedia.”
It’s okay. BSG is not Sci-Fi, it’s SyFy. Larison’s referencing that show is so far the only crack I’ve seen in his otherwise bona fide intellectual armor.
Sad_Dem - August 31, 2010 | 5:23 pm · Link
Beck != Baltar: Baltar, above all, is a survivor. Beck has the self-hating, self-destructive streak of many drunks. Baltar is a genius scientist. Beck’s a buffoon. Baltar is a ladies’ man. Beck is a tubby dork.
Beck = Baltar: Baltar is an utterly shameless demagogue/opportunist (religion included). So is Beck.
Xanthippas - August 31, 2010 | 5:27 pm · Link
@HyperIon:
Did you scroll further down to this part?
That makes Moore’s use of the word (which I’d also never heard of) all that more appropriate.
noncarborundum - August 31, 2010 | 5:30 pm · Link
@kdaug:
A “no true sci-fi” fallacy? When was the best science fiction not “a meditation on what it means to be human . . .”?
Steve - August 31, 2010 | 5:33 pm · Link
I see Larison has developed the newlywed tendency of finding a way to work “my wife” into every conversation. Cf. this clip.
Belafon (formerly anonevent) - August 31, 2010 | 5:33 pm · Link
@Xanthippas: BSG was pre-SyFy, and blew away most of the regular network programming.
I make sure to watch a large number of the goofy SyFy movies so they have the budget for Eureka, Warehouse 13, Haven, and BSG when it was on.
Bnut - August 31, 2010 | 5:33 pm · Link
@licensed to kill time: I’ve got to go ignite my flame pit to char some mammal flesh. I love that movie!
DougJ - August 31, 2010 | 5:34 pm · Link
@Xanthippas:
I like all of his posts, but (and I know you’ll say that we’re ones to talk here) I probably wouldn’t recommend reading all the ones that are replies to something that Ross Douthat wrote. He has one for almost every column that “Ross” writes and they’re always good but you can read every other or every third one and not miss too much.
Tom Levenson - August 31, 2010 | 5:34 pm · Link
None of this is new. (Not that it makes it any better, of course.) But telling people that they are perfect, righteous, and entitled to both their rage and their comforts is a pretty easy sell. It will always be with us.
The pendulum does swing, but the sick part is that even though Einstein was right when he dismissed Hitler in 1930 or so as thriving on the empty bellies of Germans, it took some seriously heavy lifting to coax that weight back to something briefly resembling equilibrium.
Ben - August 31, 2010 | 5:39 pm · Link
Yeah, anyway, go watch Battlestar Galactica (the recent remake, not the older series; they’re entirely different beasts). Some of the better writing on TV, to say nothing of the skill and intelligence of scifi at its best.
(Anybody who willingly says or writes ‘syfy’ should be tortured with Klingon pain sticks.)
Sad_Dem - August 31, 2010 | 5:40 pm · Link
A “no true sci-fi” fallacy? When was the best science fiction not “a meditation on what it means to be human . . .”?
If it’s the usual space opera crud, it’s sci-fi. When it’s good enough to compare to non-sci-fi drama, it’s not sci-fi anymore—even if, in BG’s case, it has killer robots in space and unisex bathrooms.
/you play really good for a girl
Tim in SF - August 31, 2010 | 5:45 pm · Link
This post is genius. Gaius Baltar. Wow.
I especially love this:
I’ve never thought of Christianity as syncretized. But it so obviously is, I now realize.
kindness - August 31, 2010 | 5:46 pm · Link
Shame on you
!
BSG was a religion for some even though Gaius was not the most admirable character of the lot.
justinslot - August 31, 2010 | 5:46 pm · Link
@noncarborundum: Indeed, kdaug is committing the ““no true sci-fi” fallacy. BSG is absolutely science fiction because it meditates on what it means to be human by setting up a race of non-humans to compare and contrast with (to put it crudely.) That’s the kind of thing you can’t do in other genres.
Svensker - August 31, 2010 | 5:49 pm · Link
A very bright, very educated, very thoughtful pastor I know said that the U.S. Christian identification with “America” is pure idolatry. He refuses to have a flag in his church because, he says, Christianity is supposed to transcend nationalities and is for all people.
WereBear - August 31, 2010 | 5:50 pm · Link
It truly is. “Unaffiliated sectarian” is the fastest growing category of American religious practice; in other words, none.
Steve - August 31, 2010 | 5:53 pm · Link
@justinslot: Some people feel there is a difference between sci-fi and science fiction. Maybe that was the point.
celticdragonchick - August 31, 2010 | 5:55 pm · Link
@moe99:
Beck really does have the whole Gaius Baltar self pitying cowardice thing going on.
BTW…shame on you Doug J for not watching Battlestar Galactica. It was one of the few shows on TV that took memes from the war on terror (like torture and suicide bombings) seriously. Actions in the show always had consequences and the consequences were often horrifying. Torturing somebody who claimed to have a nuclear weapon on one of the passenger starships did not solve the situation. Using suicide bombers against Cylon occupation forces didn’t really help either, and the line between freedom fighter and terrorist got real blurry.
BSG got a Peabody Award, and it was well deserved. You ought to watch the back episodes…but the show has a linear plot arc and must be watched in episode order
Xanthippas - August 31, 2010 | 5:58 pm · Link
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
I don’t want to hijack the thread with BSG talk, but I do want to clarify that by “SyFy” i meant generally the type of science fiction that is thoughtless and/or of low quality, which I deem “SyFy” because it is the kind that channel prefers to show. BSG got off to a really, really good start, but by the end of the show it clearly belonged on that channel.
Douglas - August 31, 2010 | 6:01 pm · Link
@kdaug:
Battlestar Galactica was not a “sci-fi” show. It was, and remains, a highly intelligent meditation on what it means to be human, on the influence of military vs. civilian government, and the scope of religion and spirituality – and lack thereof – in the decisions we make.
dito, and f… the horse you rode in on.
Yes, it was an SF series. With a strong focus on the characters/character interactions, which doesn’t make it any less a SF series (soft SF, and thus not very sciency, but nonetheless).
“Science Fiction” isn’t a dirty word. Or at least, amongst those of us who have the ability to not simply ape whatever is considered main stream at the moment, it isn’t.
Douglas+5
inkadu - August 31, 2010 | 6:04 pm · Link
dito, and f… the horse you rode in on.
Yes, yes, but if you film the sex with the horse in widescreen and light the scene really well, does it cease to be bestiality?
celticdragonchick - August 31, 2010 | 6:05 pm · Link
@Xanthippas:
It wandered a bit in season 3, but the final season was as strong as anything from the very beginning.
spoilers
The mutiny/government overthrow plot arc was possibly the best of the entire series. The scene where the entire executive cabinet and the Colonial Legislature are machine gunned in cold blood was utterly shocking and utterly believable. No punches were pulled leading up to the finale.
gbear - August 31, 2010 | 6:05 pm · Link
Because Beck isn’t afraid to publicly hate on un-white people. Romney knows you have to hide that stuff.
Xanthippas - August 31, 2010 | 6:08 pm · Link
@Svensker:
It’s sad how few Christians feel this way. The other day I drove by a prominent church in my area, and out front saw a statue of an Eagle clutching an American flag. It’s as if these people don’t understand anything they read in the Bible.
EEH - August 31, 2010 | 6:09 pm · Link
@Svensker: This is why I’m not fond of the whole “God bless America” bit. Why only us and no other part of the world?
Alien-Radio - August 31, 2010 | 6:09 pm · Link
Gaius Baltar’s religious revelation and subsequent heel messiah turn is interesting because even though he falls in with the Baltar cult out of pure self interest and offers them a form of monotheistic forgiveness, he’s just completing the final arc of his salvation. That god loved him, that god loved everyone was the only conclusion he could come to that could help him cope with his guilt, the cult is ultimately empty because even if god loves him and forgives him that is not enough, it doesn’t resolve his problems, he doesn’t resolve them until he marries that to the ethical responsibility, and makes a selfless choice. He writes his book and identifies many of the things that are wrong with colonial society, but he never understood what fixing them would require until he volunteered to go on a suicide mission..
this is somewhat different to the modern prosperity gospel of the religious right, where there’s a stong predestination- prosperity-piety link.
(the fact that BSG unfortnately had too much interference from god notwithstanding)
celticdragonchick - August 31, 2010 | 6:11 pm · Link
@Xanthippas:
That’s kinda creepy…and I happen to like American flags and eagles. At a church??!
Bingo!
Prosperity Gospel and American Exceptionalism/entitlement wins every time!
Amanda in the South Bay - August 31, 2010 | 6:12 pm · Link
Eh, I think some people took nBSG too seriously. Like there are times when shows like nBSG, Mad Men, the Matrix movies, etc exist solely for liberal arts professors and pundits to try and teach dumbed down philosophy. Sometimes I don’t want to watch ripped from the headlines sci fi shows, I just want enjoyable tv ( hence my idolization of the Stargate series.)
I’ve also been known to enjoy nBSG crossover fan fic, so I’m probably a bit hypocritical.
slag - August 31, 2010 | 6:14 pm · Link
@Bob L:
I did not know that. But it makes sense.
celticdragonchick - August 31, 2010 | 6:16 pm · Link
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Acknowledgment is the first step to recovery.
Now, if you were into erotic Star Trek fan fic, we would just have to have you taken outside and shot. For your own good, of course…
kdaug - August 31, 2010 | 6:16 pm · Link
OK, I had to look up the “no true sci-fi” fallacy.
I stand corrected.
And indeed, the best of Heinlein, Asimov, Clarke, Bradbury (god rest his age-addled mind) and yes, even Roddenberry were virtually transcendental meditations on the meaning of humanity. I’ve read them all, and am infinitely better for having done so.
I would encourage the admittance of the re-imagined BSG into that pantheon.
So say we all.
celticdragonchick - August 31, 2010 | 6:17 pm · Link
@kdaug:
So say we all.
Laura Roselin for President.
HyperIon - August 31, 2010 | 6:19 pm · Link
@Xanthippas wrote:
yeah, i was thinking cretin instead of Cretan until I read that. Interesting.
I gave up on BSG when it got a little tedious (searching for Caprica) but maybe I need to revisit it for series “closure” (non-epistemic of course).
noncarborundum - August 31, 2010 | 6:20 pm · Link
@EEH:
Exactly. The bumper-sticker “God Bless the Whole World: No Exceptions” really captures it for me, except for the minor detail that I don’t actually believe there’s a God to do the blessing.
Svensker - August 31, 2010 | 6:22 pm · Link
@EEH:
During “Shock and Awe” the Presbyterian church down the street from us had a big sign that said “God Bless the Whole World—No Exceptions”. That was one cool pastor.
Mnemosyne - August 31, 2010 | 6:27 pm · Link
Beck reminds me more of the late Dr. Gene Scott, who was a local LA preacher so wacky that Werner Herzog made a documentary about him. He practically invented the whiteboard/blackboard schtick, though he would throw in Bible translations from the original Greek or Aramaic.
His (very young, ex-porn-star) widow, Melissa Scott, still has a TV show locally.
inkadu - August 31, 2010 | 6:33 pm · Link
@celticdragonchick: The last season-and-a-half was so awful, I’ve forgotten how awesome the early seasons were. Ultimately, like Lost, I have to declare it a failed series. It just didn’t add up in the end, and it’s clear they’d bitten off more than they could chew.
I wonder if my atheism has an influence on how I viewed the series. One of the joys in fiction is that you can create gods, but they have to fit in the universe and have a logic about them; SF can explore that nature of that relationship. In the real world, however, God is often used as a post-hoc justification; which is how I feel they used God at the end of a series: a get out of jail free card that is only allowed because our culture is used to seeing God that way. But for me, it was deeply unsatisfying.
Other SF disatisfactions: Star Trek didn’t have any gay characters or couples; and DS9 made sure Cisco dated inside his race. Uhura could kiss Kirk and Keiko could marry O’brien, and a shapeshifter could get it on with a Bejoran, but heavens forfend a black man dating outside his race in the 24th century.
At least we’ll always have Shax’pir and the original Klingon Hamlet.
Mnemosyne - August 31, 2010 | 6:42 pm · Link
@inkadu:
I can’t say this was the case for DS9, but it’s not all that uncommon for black actors to specify that they prefer to be paired with black women since (to this day) there’s not always a lot of work for black women as romantic leads. (Edited to be more specific.)
Bill Cosby was the first and most famous one to publicly say that he would not play love scenes with white actresses when he was starring on I Spy, but I remember it happened on ER as well with Eriq LaSalle.
So it may not have been the producers, it may have been at Avery Brooks’ request.
kdaug - August 31, 2010 | 6:42 pm · Link
@inkadu: Oh, puh-lease. ST:OS didn’t have any gay characters (well, Sulu, but closeted doesn’t get credit), but it did have Chinese, Russian, black, and fraking alien characters on the bridge.
In the late 60s.
Height of the cold war.
It pushed a message of tolerance before it was cool.
Boo-hoo, it’s didn’t go far enough for our 2010 sensibilities.
If it had, it would have been canceled after the first episode.
MattR - August 31, 2010 | 6:45 pm · Link
@Mnemosyne: I think you just gave Andrew Breitbart all the proof he needs that black people are really the racist ones.
Mnemosyne - August 31, 2010 | 6:51 pm · Link
@MattR:
Yeah, probably. But, frankly, I can understand why an actor would make that decision once s/he is in a position to do it.
Though it did annoy me when LaSalle did it on ER because he and Alex Kingston had better chemistry together than either of them did with any other actor in the entire run of the series.
noncarborundum - August 31, 2010 | 6:55 pm · Link
@kdaug:
Roddenberry even tried to make a woman second-in-command, but the network people just couldn’t wrap their brains around that. It was hard enough to get the Spock character past their delicate sensibilities. (The actress who played “Number One” in the pilot became Nurse Chapel – and Roddenberry’s wife).
MattR - August 31, 2010 | 7:06 pm · Link
@Mnemosyne: No doubt.
And to supplement your initial point, I know he was Klingon, but Worf was pretty swarthy and he managed to “steal” Troi from Riker, who was pretty much an All American guy.
Amanda in the South Bay - August 31, 2010 | 7:17 pm · Link
@inkadu:
Well, if you want to get nit picky, the intendant Kira in the mirror verse was a pretty kinky dominatrix :) does that count?
Amanda in the South Bay - August 31, 2010 | 7:19 pm · Link
@celticdragonchick:
Does erotic Trek fan fic written with several cross over universes count?
:)
inkadu - August 31, 2010 | 7:30 pm · Link
@kdaug: I was actually referring to ST:NG and its spinoffs, which seemed like step backward from ST:OS in the authentic diversity department. ST:OS set the bar, and ST:NG ran into it head first.
@Amanda in the South Bay: Alternate reality Kira, now there’s a memory!
celticdragonchick - August 31, 2010 | 7:32 pm · Link
@Amanda in the South Bay:
LOL! :D
kdaug - August 31, 2010 | 7:36 pm · Link
@noncarborundum: Yurp. Majel Barett was also the voice of the computer in ST:NG. (I though she was was hotter as a brunette with bangs in the pilot, but YMMV).
OK, that’s enough letting my geek flag fly – tonight’s league billiards night, so I’ll check in later.
celticdragonchick - August 31, 2010 | 7:37 pm · Link
@inkadu:
sigh
Well, there is no accounting for taste. I will acknowledge that they may have over-reached with the Deux Ex Machina, but I am far more forgiving of writers who set high goals and don’t always hit the target than I am of those who play to dumb down to the lowest common denominator.
inkadu - August 31, 2010 | 7:38 pm · Link
@Mnemosyne: Thanks for that perspective; I hadn’t looked at it that way… too bad they couldn’t have dealt with Brooks’ (hypothetical) request by introducing a black female character to the show, and not as a love interest.
inkadu - August 31, 2010 | 7:41 pm · Link
@celticdragonchick: It’s a failed series, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a great series… more like an unfinished symphony. Awesome in it’s ability to quickly transport you to a place you never thought you’d go, but never arriving at the final destination.
RedKitten - August 31, 2010 | 7:42 pm · Link
@Svensker:
Wait, wait, wait. Hold the phone. You actually DO have churches there that fly a flag INSIDE the building?
No. Come on. You’re not serious.
RedKitten - August 31, 2010 | 7:49 pm · Link
@celticdragonchick:
Good point. I too, agree that there was a bit too much “goddidit”, but when you take on a project that ambitious, it’s hard to not write yourself into a corner. At least they WERE ambitious, instead of just keeping things easy for themselves.
And one thing that I loved about BSG was the sheer quantity of really meaty roles for females. No passive sidekicks here—Roslin and Starbuck were both incredibly complex, fucked up characters who you could not help but love, even when they were being positively abhorrent.
gnomedad - August 31, 2010 | 7:49 pm · Link
@inkadu:
Doctor Who and Torchwood regularly depict mixed (human) race couples without framing them as noteworthy.
Amanda in the South Bay - August 31, 2010 | 8:19 pm · Link
@RedKitten:
The rather middle of the road Episcopal church I grew up in had an American flag on the inside; no one would accuse them of mixing God and patriotism.
I think it also may have been common in ethnic Catholic and Orthodox parishes at one time to prove their “Americaness” or something like that. I wouldn’t doubt that some Russian and Serbian Orthodox parishes here in the US have Russian and Serbian flags flying in them. Orthodoxy, of course, has its nationalistic problems (look up the history of phyletism) but I’d rather prefer the xenophobic Eastern European fucked up nationalism to the American fundygelical version.
The supranational character of Catholicism is a very attractive thing indeed; for someone who went through an Orthodox phase earlier in her life (i.e. me) not being bogged down in ethnic bullshit (yeah, I’m looking at you Serbs, ethnic cleansers of Kosovars and Bosnians). A lot of Orthodoxy’s fucked up problems with nationalism are due to the emergence of nation states from the wreckage of the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century.
Edit: and I am slightly drunk, sorry for the poor grammar.
Amanda in the South Bay - August 31, 2010 | 8:29 pm · Link
@Amanda in the South Bay:
If you think American Protestantism has problems with mixing God and mammon, just look at Eastern Orthodoxy. The Macedonian Orthodox Church isn’t recognized as legit because that would mean the Serbs would get their panties in a tightwad. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kiev Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church aren’t recognized as legit cause that would mean pissing in the Wheaties of the Russian Orthodox Church, which dominates the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, which is found predominately in Eastern Ukraine.
WereBear - August 31, 2010 | 8:52 pm · Link
@kdaug: If you haven’t read Alfred Bester, you oughta.
My brother is not into most science fiction, great or not, but he’s an absolute nut about The Stars My Destination.
kommrade reproductive vigor - August 31, 2010 | 9:01 pm · Link
Ditto the TalEvan on Catholics. “I think you’re going to hell but if you wanna come bash some f^gs and shoot up an abortion clinic, hop in!”
Yeah, and that worked so well when it was “If you don’t agree with President Bush, you hate America.”
Oh well, the more people they drive off (and I think attacking people’s faith is a REALLY stupid gamble) the fewer there will be to pay for the mega-churches and the “faith affirming” books.
Lysana - August 31, 2010 | 9:02 pm · Link
@inkadu:
I was consistently annoyed as a polytheist by their handling of the humans’ religion. You can’t just say “godsdamn it” and otherwise talk like Christians. They didn’t even think about what having twelve deities means to a tradition compared to one. They were twelve facets of the same-old same-old. And when Starbuck referred to the Cylons’ god as “God” with a capital letter clear in the statement as opposed to “their god,” I stopped trying to deal with their handling of the humans’ faith. The rest was just prima facie evidence they hadn’t studied past what they got fed in Sunday School/CCD.
WereBear - August 31, 2010 | 9:14 pm · Link
@Lysana: This ultimately drove me away after the first season; it was clear certain structures were slippery and vulnerable.
Bella Q - August 31, 2010 | 9:16 pm · Link
@gnomedad: Yah but the Brits can get away with that sort of thing.
celticdragonchick - August 31, 2010 | 9:21 pm · Link
@RedKitten:
Absolutely. Starbuck was the fierce, wounded, but still vibrant heart of the series for me. Her scene where she admitted to Adama that she had passed his son on a Viper check ride instead of failing him as she should have…thereby resulting in his accidental death flying an aircraft he couldn’t handle… was utterly heartbreaking. I was actually in tears by the end of it.
celticdragonchick - August 31, 2010 | 9:24 pm · Link
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Where are you? I’ll join you. ;)
mnpundit - August 31, 2010 | 9:32 pm · Link
You really hate Christianity don’t you Doug?
gwangung - August 31, 2010 | 9:35 pm · Link
@inkadu: Wonder what folks think about this purported Paramount memo.
Dunno if it’s authentic, but a few of the Asian actors involved don’t deny that they were considered closely for parts.
LikeableInMyOwnWay - August 31, 2010 | 10:38 pm · Link
Another thing in your favor.
I loves me some sci. But begone, the fi.
Brassknuckle Diplomacy - September 1, 2010 | 12:40 am · Link
Damn, I was hoping to never run into the “Battlestar Galactica is the best TV series ever created and anyone who didn’t like it is obviously a knuckle-dragging, mouth breathing pinhead” meme here.
I have always liked science fiction, and I remember I was excited to see a new version of what was originally a very cheesy show that did not age well at all. I eagerly watched the opening mini-series, and while I found it dull, I decided to give the first season an actual chance.
I can honestly say I have never found a TV show to be as un-bloody-watchable as Battlestar Galactica before, or thankfully since. I understand it was all very serious and pregnant with meaning and loaded with themes through which we can analyze our own troubled times and all that stuff, but really, it was torture to sit through the constant screaming, crying, angst-ridden handwringing and self-imposed paralysis. I went very quickly from wanting to punch every character in their perpetually tear-streaked face to simply not caring if they live or die, at which point I turned the show off for good…. never made it through season 1.
Most of the time, if the subject of the show comes up anywhere, I lie and say I never saw it, rather than suffer the condescending “well, it’s a show that rewards intelligence” comments that inevitably follow any admission to not enjoying it.
El Cid - September 1, 2010 | 1:25 am · Link
@Brassknuckle Diplomacy: I thought it was okay, but got really tired of the things you mentioned.
Anne Laurie - September 1, 2010 | 3:04 am · Link
@kdaug:
Noncarborundum beat me to the point, but I have to mention that one of Rodenberry’s favorite lecture lines was
Pseudonym - September 1, 2010 | 3:35 am · Link
@mnpundit: Clearly he must be a God-hating Alinskyite.
Don - September 1, 2010 | 10:16 am · Link
Claiming that BSG was awful is as incorrect as claiming it was brilliant. It was both in parts, but the things that were amazing made it well worth suffering through some of the really execrable bits.
With perfect hindsight (or as perfect as mine can be), I’d say that if you want to get the most out of BSG the way to go is to skip the minis and jump right in with the first “regular” episode, 33, which kicks off a long run of examining what people pressed up against a wall for survival will do. Interpersonal and political, it paints a great picture of a conflict between civilian and military control.
Season two continues the military conflict and adds in examination of dealing with an insurrection… first from spies within and then on to becoming the resistance itself.
Quite frankly I can’t think of anyone before or since who’s done more cogent and amazing Iraq war commentary. By putting the humans in the position of the people being controlled it let BSG show sympathetic characters attacking civilian targets and committing suicide bombings.
Season three wraps that up in the first few episodes and as far as I’m concerned that’s where it starts to wobble on the rails, if not come apart. There’s interesting things about justice and dealing with healing a broken society but if you’re not willing to take a much higher percentage of chaff with the wheat I think this is where you should just put it down.
I’m still not sure whether I wish I’d just walked away at the end of season three. Obviously some folks above disagree but there was little in season four for me.
But really, season two and the Iraq-comemntary-that-wasn’t? Really blew me away.
lol - September 1, 2010 | 12:22 pm · Link
The only thing that rang false to me about the BSG finale was everyone in the fleet following Lee’s suggestion without protest. Seemed utterly unrealistic.
Everything else I loved.
lol - September 1, 2010 | 12:30 pm · Link
@MattR:
Only briefly. But he did marry Dax.
tones - September 1, 2010 | 1:28 pm · Link
The original was cheesy but charming.
The new BSG was a soap opera ala Knott’s Landing or Dallas.
I tried so hard to like it , but failed every time.
Never made it through even one episode all the way and I love Sci Fi…
twiffer - September 1, 2010 | 8:06 pm · Link
dougj, forget genre. genre is for organizing libraries and bookstores. SF is simply a setting. story is what matters. story and writing chops. by not being a ‘sci-fi’ person you miss out on some fantastic writers (leguin, ellison, asimov, vonnegut, etc.) and some great tv (doctor who, farscape, TNG, etc.). don’t be blinded by genre. unless it’s harlequin romance. [grin]
Brassknuckle Diplomacy - September 1, 2010 | 11:32 pm · Link
@Don: Well, to be clear, I said I personally found it unwatchable and that I didn’t enjoy it, that’s not the same thing as claiming the show was awful as some kind of objective fact.
My major problem was the reaction of fans upon learning I didn’t care for the show. Most seemed to take on the task of converting me with a missionary’s zeal, always taking the time to throw in a few subtle jabs about perhaps not being “smart enough to get BSG”. Very annoying.
Matthew - September 2, 2010 | 7:48 pm · Link
@Don:
There’s a point in (pick one:many/most/all) series with a strong central concept where the mythology of the series, its particular characters and plots, takes over from the concept. Part of the problem is that, in the US at least, shows are typically made to run for as many seasons as possible and so don’t plan much out. BSG is strange in that it seems to have had its entire arc planned out (correct me if I’m wrong), yet they fell into the same bad writing traps.