Onward White Christian Soldiers
By John Cole August 30th, 2010
Douthat loved Beckfest:
In a sense, Beck’s “Restoring Honor” was like an Obama rally through the looking glass. It was a long festival of affirmation for middle-class white Christians — square, earnest, patriotic and religious. If a speaker had suddenly burst out with an Obama-esque “we are the ones we’ve been waiting for,” the message would have fit right in.
I’m reasonably sure there wasn’t that much fornication going on, which makes it all the better for the youngest prude in the world. Although TBOGG does Douthat so much better:
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross, sitting in a lawn chair and eating a KFC Double Down
He forgot the scooters.
Posted in Assholes, Our Failed Media Experiment
Remember that Obama rally denouncing America, God, the flag, apple pie and Earnest? That was awesome.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
They really are hard to distinguish from the audience of The Price Is Right some days, and I’m betting their price is low.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
My God, Douthat is such a loser.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
I think it was more like middle class white Christians looking in the looking glass.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
I’m hard-pressed to imagine a less patriotic movement than the Teabaggers. Subvert constitutional ideals? Check. Divide “real” Americans from the rest of us? Check. Want the economy to collapse in order to bring down the elected government? Check. Constructed from the remnants of an actual secessionist movement? Check.
If this is patriotic, I’d hate to see seditious.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
@Crashman:
Douthat always looks to me like the kid who came third in the Junior Werewolf contest, and has resented it ferociously ever since.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
I have to agree with this: “In a sense, Beck’s “Restoring Honor” was like an Obama rally through the looking glass
A lot of over-general platitudes meant to indulge people who are looking to be told what they want to hear.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Well, yes, it was vaguely like an Obama rally if Obama suffered from coprolalia.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
@morzer: Good one.
He always looked to me like the snivelly kid who would tattle on you for tearing the tag off of a pillow at a sleepover party.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
So according to Douthat, you have to be white and Christian to be earnest and patriotic? Why is he considered a sane conservative and not a hatemonger?
August 30th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
The only thing I want to know about this whole drama is how Rush will counter Beck’s massive ratings stunt.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
@Culture of Truth: It’s me! It’s me! It’s Earnest B!
August 30th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
@schrodinger’s cat:
Because you can’t be White and Christian and be a hatemonger! That’s like….implying that White Christian Americans don’t have good, honest reasons to hate everyone!
August 30th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
The Reverend Beck rallies his flock.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Did they sing We Shall Overcome while lighting candles to shine the light on their their doleful existence in the 35% tax bracket?
August 30th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Don’t be so sure.
Oy.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
Plus, can’t these fucking idiots get it that we’re not a Christian nation?
Yes, the majority of the founding fathers were Christian. Yes, even the ones that weren’t explicitly Christians were deists. However, they saw the problem with religious freedom and didn’t want any specific religion to be the basis of our country.
The God mentioned in all of the documents of the revolution is “Nature’s God” and was left as a paean to public faith and could be the god of whomever heard the phrase.
Maybe we can order a couple million copies of American Gospel and force these idiots to read it multiple times with their eyes kept open, ala Clockwork Orange.
But of course, I’m just a subversive atheist (who used to work for a church) and I’m just counting down the seconds until the traditional family is dead, America is destroyed and I can do my evil atheist victory dance. Asshats.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
yay! culture war! how Thrilling ! solidarity ! let’s hate them, together!
August 30th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
Glenn Beck, artist’s rendering
August 30th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
I’m sorry, I’m in the white middle class, and I actually worked for the Obama campaign—as did, it should be noted, many, many other members of the white middle class. Many of whom could be seen at Obama’s rallies.
IS DOUTHAT SAYING WE’RE NOT WHITE ENOUGH?
August 30th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
@joe from Lowell: Teh awesome-sauce, yea, verily.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
@slag:
Rich people strike against economic injustice and class warfare. Remove selves to undisclosed secret location. Megan McArdle wins contract to supply premium elite fine-grain classic rose-colored Himalayan salt.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
Sometimes I really wonder how much Mr. Doubthat is being paid for his screeds. Can he possibly be that stupid, evil, and greedy all at the same time and still chew gum?
Yes, yes he can.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
Why am I not surprised that Douche-hat just loved the (1/10-) Million Moron March?
August 30th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
Ross Douthat: Culture War Chickenhawk.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
I’m still kind of confused, exactly how many antique gold coins do I need to buy before honor is restored to America?
August 30th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
@freelancer: Now you know that doesn’t count as fornication with the Tea Party crowd.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
The GOP has become the party of know-nothing mama grizzlies and do-nothing man babies
August 30th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
@joe from Lowell: I resent that! Michael Scott isn’t an asshole. Sure, he’s inept and does things with nasty consequences, but he tries to do the right thing (or does it when forced to). Beck is just a straight up scummy douchebag.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross, sitting in a non-government-funded Medicare scooter and wiping its behind with Reason.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
@GambitRF: Typically, it’s ten percent of your income.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
@freelancer:
The Craig’s list ads:
Laughed out loud! Thank you!
August 30th, 2010 at 4:38 pm
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
Pretty damn much. Though as someone of Italian, German and Irish descent, it’s only relatively recently that I was considered white anyway.
I’m gonna play my tiny violin for all those middle-class white Christians who are so butthurt at the prospect of having to share, take turns, keep their hands to themselves, and, yanno, basically act like they paid attention in kindergarten.
I’m trying to figure out who Douthat has in his spank bank: Palin or Boehner?
August 30th, 2010 at 4:39 pm
Ah, Chunky Bobo. The barrel fish that keeps on giving.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:39 pm
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: I am sure I am whiter, or, at least, a whiter shade of pale than Douthat.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
@GambitRF: FTW
August 30th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
Because if there’s one group in this country that’s downtrodden and needs affirmation…
never mind, this is too depressing even to snark.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
From the Douthat column:
“the pageant effortlessly tapped into the same rich vein of identity politics that has given us figures as diverse as Palin and Howard Dean, George W. Bush and Barack Obama — but did so, somehow, without advancing any explicitly political agenda.”
What I want to know is, how can I get a prestigious job with pay, where I can just say stuff with no obvious connection to reality and don’t have to give any evidence that it is not complete nonsense.
On the spectrum of identity politics, how are Obama, Dean, or even Dub anywhere near Palin (or Beck, for that matter)?
What the hell identity politics was Dean into? Dub was a combo dupe and confused con man, but I didn’t see anything like the Palin/Beck version of identity politics in Dub.
This isn’t High Broderism, it is lazy Broderism, or Mindless Broderism. Or scribbling stuff out in a few minutes from the talking point of the day that came over the fax late last night. Not sure which.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
@jl:
Move to the right.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
@jl:
Reason might be hiring. Or perhaps BP…
August 30th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
Through the Looking Glass in the Lewis Carroll sense, I assume?
Or maybe he meant the Star Trek ‘Mirror Mirror’ sense.
dms
August 30th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Wow, someone publicly declares that America needs a return to both conservative political values and to leadership of our culture by classically conservative American-style prominent Christian figures, churches, and rhetoric, Ross Douthat finds himself in agreement. I am stunned.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Which means it will have about a 4 year lifespan. Imagine the American “Hitler” (Palin?) getting up rallying the troops, and half of them die before they march the first half mile.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
@GambitRF:
Speaking of gold coins, Beck was going on about how much suffering the CEO of Goldline is doing because of the m33n leftists in Congress who are investigating his company, etc. The CEO paid for some breakfast associated with this weekend’s teabag rally and Beck intoned about how the CEO “just offered to pay for it. I didn’t ask him to.”
Is Congress really investigating Goldline? What’s going on there?
August 30th, 2010 at 4:50 pm
How about a return to actual values instead of being preached at by hypocrites?
Where were these people when hundreds of thousands of us (maybe not you guys, but I was there) marched against the Iraq War? Where were their values? Oh yeah, they were busy getting their rage on by hating all Muslims because we were attacked and oh yeah, Iraqis are brown and Muslim too…..
You know, that nice Christian value about not lying? This whole thing fucking sickened me. A bunch of hypocritical liars, calling themselves by a label that they barely understand and certainly don’t fucking live by.
I used to be an aggressive atheist but I’ve mellowed into a relaxed atheist who just giggles about the hypocrisy I see, but this kind of shit makes me move towards the more aggressive.
But, arguing that morality and values can come from places other than a supernatural creature that supposedly created us with these people would be a waste of time.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
I personally have yet to run into someone specifically stating that they want to return to our Christian roots – we just don’t talk politics at work – so I would like someone to ask this question when they get a chance:
“Which Christian roots would you like to return to: Baptist, Catholic, Assembly of God, Lutheran?” And point out this is why they chose not to have a specific religion.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Dad got a conspiracy chain letter from a relative, and forwarded me his response. I thought it struck the right tone.
He predicts that she won’t speak to him for some time, but I say the very least we can do is resist the temptation to trash these things and reply. You might bring a modicum of sanity back to America if you do.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
@Original Lee:
Remember how your mom always warned you against swallowing your chewing gum?
Maybe that’s why Doubthat
lookswrites like his bowels have been blocked up since he was in the seventh grade.August 30th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
OH The White Liberation Theocrats just want to get their stamp of gawd approval on before the shooting and firebombing starts. A shotgun wedding between The Trinity and white superiority.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
@Apsaras: I have a few relatives that have stopped forwarding things to me because my answer was a snopes link.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
@Apsaras: I like the polite tomato inquiry.
August 30th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
When Doughtwat got his NYT gig a year or so ago, there were Those amongst us who nodded approval, explaining that he was the ever-elusive “reasonable conservative.”
Others amongst us responded to Those with open-mouthed incredulity and cries of WTF.
He has some “reasonable conservative” sidekick named Reihan something, right? Is he any better than Doughtwat?
August 30th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
Does anyone else remember when all these assholes were bitching about the big Obama rallies, and how they were full of good words with no substance? Now they expect we bend to their will because they have a rally or two organized by a major T.V network.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
@scav:
I would bet that The Price is Right audience has entirely too many brown, asian ,and moooslims for their tastes.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
@Zam: To be fair, Obama used teleprompters.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Win.
“Calvinist or Lutheran? CALVINIST OR LUTHERAN?”
August 30th, 2010 at 5:03 pm
@eemom:
Reihan “Ethnic BFF for Hire” Salam is all over the Atlantic, especially as an underblogger for Sullivan. He’s basically Michael Steele with a bigger vocabulary and a lower Q-rating.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:04 pm
@Betsy: Which Lutheran Synod?
August 30th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
@freelancer:
Maybe it’s because I almost passed out from the smell in the last portajohn I was in, but the idea of having sex in one of those things is enough to make me consider becoming a monk.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
@Violet:
Consumer Reports issued a press release saying they don’t like Goldline’s sales tactics, and the flying monkeys were released. Apparently Consumer Reports now has a known leftist bias for, like, trying to prevent people from being scammed. Don’t they know that companies have an absolute right to scam their customers?
August 30th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
@Betsy:
Quaker! No Military!
Seventh Day Adventist
Jehovah’s Witness
Just tell em the founding fathers were mostly Anglican – hence Episcopalian. A big favorite with the far right Christians.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
@Mnemosyne: “If God had not wanted them to be sheared, he would not have made them sheep.”
Bad guy from the Magnificent Seven.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
@Anne Laurie:
More of a Tunku Varadarajan, but with added “good Muslim” spicy stylings.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:10 pm
@catclub: Unitarians developed from Puritans, so that works too.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:10 pm
@jl:
I brought that up last night; the dipshit has no idea what identity politics means.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): There was also a notable split between Southern Baptist and Northern Baptist.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
@Mark S.: And consider that they were filled by aging teabaggers with questionable dietary habits.
Yum.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
@Omnes Omnibus: They were also just a bunch of young brainwashed kids, duped by a pretty face and all that public school and media propaganda into hating whites. One thing you can say about the Beck crowd is that they are not young.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
I’m offended by tbogg’s association of the noble double down with fascism :(
August 30th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
@matt:
But do you feel a need to take back your country?
August 30th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): Thanks for bringing up the issue of the diverse Christian sects (as the Founders would call them).
The issue of which denomination, Baptist, Lutheran, and other, would define Christianity was considered very important back then.
And that is why the wingnuts, teab*gg*rs and Fox News are wrong about popular opinion differing from Jefferson on separation of church and state. Jefferson’s reputed personal elitism, obvious strong belief in separation of church and state, and his obvious status as an infidel by the current Xtianist standards makes this an easy lie to use.
The Baptists were very strong proponents of separation of church and state, because they had no influence among those who would determine any state religion (Baptists being a common peoples’ religion) and they felt that they had been persecuted.
But now that the Southern Baptists are a de facto political power in parts of the country, they conveniently forget their own heritage.
But, then again, the line is nonsense anyway. The constitution did not get the Bill of Rights on Jefferson’s whim. Many others had to agree to get it adopted.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
@Violet:
Beck said it. They believe it. That settles it!
August 30th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Also, this is another example in my theory that all these crazy people schedule their biggest crazysplosions for when Jon Stewart and Colbert are on vacation. It happens every. freaking. time.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): The Western Branch of American Reform Presbylutheranism.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
Indeed, the best way to convince people, who have been trained now for years to look at all the “hate” language for white people (like everyone in this country has been trained to do but also- please don’t examine why that is because it might make you look at the pernicious crap you have been spreading in this country for decades) is to call forth images of KFC eating fat redneck poltroons.
Must be satisfying.
Thanks for nothing.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:23 pm
@arguingwithsignposts: They schedule all their shit when everyone is on vacation, probably to get more people there. Once summer ends I bet we will see a lot less of this shit. Also it is easy to get coverage for crap like this during a time when nothing else is going on news wise, which usually happens in August.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:23 pm
@Jeff: Everybody likes the Price is Right. What’s not to like about the Price is Right?
August 30th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
@Zam: Aside from my birthday, August does tend to suck.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
Please spread. A picture like that is worth well over a thousand words.
Humor is powerful. Let’s take Beck down a peg.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
@matt: Yes, especially since they have a grilled version that has fewer calories for those of us watching our waistlines or still clining to the hope that that Atkins Diet will save us from having to give up our large portions of meat.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Outraged at 5-cent bag tax, Teanuts hurl sandwiches at deli employees.
** SIGH **
August 30th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
@Chris Dowd: I prefer “KFC eating fat redneck assholes” but only because I’m one of those tolerant liberals and calling someone a “poltroon’ is just mean.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
But but but the teabaggers aren’t the same old Bible-thumpers that’ve constituted much of the GOP’s right wing since the 1970s!
August 30th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
@Southern Beale: Props to Jim Newell for the closing paragraph.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Heard on the news this morning that Beck did a Fox News interview and said that people did not recognize Obama as a Christian because Obama believed in ‘liberation theology’, or something like that.
Report said Beck confessed many would not consider him a real Christian because he was a Mormon.
Weird. Seems like what Beck is doing is not simple red meat identity politics. He is throwing in kooky cockeyed nuance, and giving too much information about himself.
Maybe this is just a way to recruit the gullible to his show so Beck can a good demographic for that gold coin scam that sponsors his show.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:37 pm
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
Worse. Doucheshat is saying that you’re a bunch of race traitors who need to be served up into the market of racist/religionist oppression, that worthy device that melded America.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
he does have a fun name to make fun of. Ya gotta give him that.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
@Chris Dowd: I think the story linked to via your blog post should be front-paged here.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Thanks for the honesty. It is rare to find people admit that they are more interested in satisfying their own hateful indecency than accomplishing anything useful.
Yes- lets all insult the fat loser low class worthless white trash templates of your imagination.
Hey- and then we can all wonder why there is “closure” in the thinking among these people. Excellent! Thank you!
Continue on with your public indecent indulgence of your sick brain.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
@El Cid:
Again- amazing the things we don’t see isn’t it? I couldn’t watch that video. I’m still getting the wikileaks video slaughter out of my head.
August 30th, 2010 at 5:47 pm
@Chris Dowd:
There comes a point during discourse with someone who has no grasp of facts or logic where you just walk away. I’m certain many people here have talked with people of the stereotype you’re discussing. At a certain point, when a white, middle-aged know-nothing condemns me for my lack of faith and screams nonsense about taxes and revolution, I’m going to stop looking for common ground..
There is no common ground to be found with people who are the intellectual inferiors to a fucking fence post. Maybe you’re interested in “engaging” the rubes, I’m interested in fighting against their idiocy.
But go ahead…if you get bored, I’ve got a lance and I know where some windmills are…
August 30th, 2010 at 5:52 pm
Yes- you certainly sound like you are interested in fighting their idiocy- with more idiocy.
Again- thanks for nothing. You are not “fighting” anything with your stupid little screen name and your dumb little stereotype posts.
You ever going to get bored of stringing together insulting adjectives?
August 30th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
Did any of the tea-baggers toss their salads in protest of a bag tax?
August 30th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Aw, you insulted my screen name. And then my intelligence. “Stringing together insulting adjectives”?
Come on, relax. I don’t know about you, I don’t find that commenting on any blog is “fighting”.
And fuck no, I won’t ever get bored of stringing together insulting adjectives. Cursing is one of the best things about any language.
Seriously though, although I’m sure you’ll insult me again, (not that that’s bad, though evidently I should be judged for it), what would you have people do?
How does one engage with someone not in contact with reality?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
@Chris Dowd:
“Yes lets all insult the fat loser low class worthless white trash”
Looks like you have never come across a post where Cole describes himself, have you?
Or a comment where I describe myself.
Or, are you saying that an attack on Douthat is an attack on all chubby tighty-whitey conservatives everywhere?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
There’s a sect of Baptists here in my neck of the woods called Primitive Baptists, and I’m telling you those PB people with whom I share an acquaintance are filled with such dogmatic certitude that a Southern Baptist would be “Other.”
August 30th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
@singfoom: Here here, when Sarah Serendipity says “Lock and Load” every other day, my tolerance level plummets and I want to clean my gun. There is no complexity involved and words are wasted looking for it. And in it’s simplicity, there is a certain dark beauty also, too. You can’t fight city hall, and you can’t make hay with loonatics.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:03 pm
@Chris Dowd:
August 30th, 2010 at 6:03 pm
@General Stuck:
I like the cut of your sarcastic jib, sir. However, when I used the word “fighting”, I wasn’t speaking in the physical sense, more in the sense of “fighting” against them politically.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:08 pm
Hey- if you are going to call people names- put your fucking name on it. Stop being some internet equivalent of a particularly posionous village gossip.
Hey- i get it- its fun to hang out with people who think exactly like you- mostly anonymous little dorks- and call people names and re-confirm your own little stupid world views.
Just don’t think you are doing the world any favors or that you are contributing one fucking thing of use to this country by doing so.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:11 pm
@sputnikgayle:
The PBs where I used to live didn’t even think Southern Baptists were saved. heh.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Should we all applaud your contributions, just because you have the courage to announce yourself as Maureen’s little sister?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Dude, I think your getting the hang of this place.
@singfoom:
I would never fire the first shot. But I do return fire, of whatever variety, being a turn-a-bout is fair play liberal.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
@Chris Dowd:
I’m sorry that I interrupted your great work and had the temerity not to use my real name. I wasn’t aware of the rules you had set down for commenting here.
Don’t worry, I won’t bother you again with my stupid little dumb little posts where I insult people without my real name.
A good day to you, sir.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:17 pm
Hey- and then we can all wonder why there is “closure” in the thinking among these people. Excellent! Thank you!
Somerby makes this argument a lot, i.e., it’s all we liberal elitists’ fault that these batshit crazy morons listen to the likes of Palin and Beck, because we look down our pointy noses and make fun of them instead of taking them by their childlike hands and lovingly guiding them along the path to Truth.
As an intellectual proposition it sort of makes sense, but I agree with Singfoom that in the real world of people with “no grasp of facts or logic,” it is a lost cause.
There is also the fact that Somerby is insane.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
That’s why I come here. Who’s with me?
ETA: Beaten to the punch by Stuck.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
block quote fail. : (
August 30th, 2010 at 6:19 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Would now be a very good time for a modified Buffy quote?
“[calling people names and reconfirming our own little stupid world views?] Its rather an end in itself.”
aimai
aimai
August 30th, 2010 at 6:19 pm
For a chillingly clear rundown on the ways the Beck/Palin crowd are indistinguishable from fascists, see Peter Lipson’s post today at White Coat Underground. This excellent (mostly medical) blog deserves more attention.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:20 pm
@morzer:
tee hee
August 30th, 2010 at 6:22 pm
John, John….
Maybe funny on a different day and in a different context or if we still had Lewis Grizzard to fashion a suitable comeback.
And you know—you know—that if the things that are said about TPs was said about any other ethnic group/culture, 80% of your audience would take to their PC fainting couches.
Oh, btw, fascism has already come to America. It was welcomed with open arms by the latest iteration of Progressives who self-describe(d) as socially liberal, fiscally conservative. How’d that work out for you guys?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:24 pm
@eemom:
Somerby has become completely unglued about race issues in the last few years. He actively ignores the undercurrent of racism in the Tea Party and has spent the better part of his energy lecturing “Rhodes Scholars” and their “toilet humor.” Cuz, he’s a comedian and all so he’s an authority on humor and all that.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:25 pm
@Chris Dowd: I notice you still haven’t answered the question that several have posed. How do you deal with people who are unwilling or unable to learn new facts that might change their opinions?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:25 pm
@Molly McRae:
I have room on my fainting couch for two. Want to snuggle up and sing the Teabagger’s Anthem?
“Tea for me, and none for you…”
August 30th, 2010 at 6:27 pm
@Chris Dowd: Not sure what crawled up your butt, but I have plenty of family that fits exactly this image that you are getting worked up about, with most of them wondering why they are poor. Their closure has nothing to do with us pointing out that they fit a stereotype: You couldn’t explain to most of them what “epistemic closure” means.
ETA: They don’t want to know about the larger world, and totally resent it when it starts affecting them.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
@Molly McRae:
I’d love to respond, but first you are gonna have to expand on what exactly you mean. What fascism already exists in the United States and how was it progressives that welcomed it to the country? More specifically, how do those “fascist” actions that progressives welcome differ from the actions of mainstream conservatives over the past 10-15 years?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
I did not post any insulting comments about the teab*gg*rs, at least until I saw the silly outrage from some commenters here.
Those teab*gg*rs are my people, my heritage, the people I come from, and there are several teab*gg*r types in my family. Both the poor duped working class loser, and the selfish white middle class bigot, types.
I reserve the right to describe them in any fashion I see fit.
You know, we white losers have to get our act together help ourselves as community, if we expect to get anywhere in the world. Some times that takes a little ‘home truthing’ and tough love. Sorry if feelings git hurt.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
I have to be careful mocking the KFC Double Down for fear of offending the, um, Breadless-Fried-Chicken-Breast-Sandwich-American community?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:33 pm
@Molly McRae @Chris Dowd: Get your candles together now and hold hands. Sing it loud: We shall overcoooome!
August 30th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
@Chris Dowd asked:
Please learn to use the Reply thingy in the lower right corner of the comment you are replying to. Then that special person can know that you are talking to him/her.
As for your question, my answer is: IMO No. Some people here string together adjectives dozens of times every day. I’ve been observing this for > 5 years now. If they aren’t bored by now, I doubt they ever will be.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:36 pm
People are more than their political views. They are PEOPLE. Would you use that language to their faces? Would you sit down at a dinner table with one of those people at that Glenn Beck thing and call them all that crap? Would you?
But you are right. This is inappropriate of me. This forum is what it is- a gossip page for your tribe- a place to re-enforce the group troupes and totems- label and demonize enemies- spread hate and fear and mistrust and gang up on the occasional stranger who wanders into your clubhouse who doesn’t use the right code words and slang. I get it.
Much easier these days than it was in the old days. In the old days- people had to dress up in black and go out in the middle of the night to paint the walls with dark tribal messages of hate and divisiveness. But you don’t have to leave the comfort of your home now to do it do you?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
@handy: Bob Somerby wants better liberal leaders. And he thinks white lower and middle class people are also being screwed currently and might be fertile ground if our liberal leaders wouldn’t make so much fun of them and their cultural choices and trivial things. I don’t know how that is insane. Our liberal leaders do actually suck.
Also, if you’re going to yell racism, you had better make it stick. How’s that so hard to understand?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
Not Christian enough, silly.
Now, me, I’m middle class, white and Christian and fairly earnest. But I’m not the droid they are looking for either, cuz I’m the WRONG kind of Christian. One of those dang liberal Christians—I heard they’s worser than Mormans!
August 30th, 2010 at 6:40 pm
@Chris Dowd: Have you read all the comments? Do you think your description is applicable to all the comments? If so, why?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:42 pm
@Chris Dowd: Although there is a real world in which people need to know or learn how to work together past differences, if such is a priority here, it’s the first I’ve heard of it, as this is just a blog for political gripes and arguing and humor and whatnot called “Balloon Juice”.
I don’t think people come here for real organizing guidelines and tips, and people not interested in that wouldn’t be here if that’s what they would be seeing here.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:42 pm
@Suffern ACE:
Who are these leaders of yours and, if they’re so bad, why are you following them?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
Does Mr. Dowd believe that Ben Franklin’s pseudonymous contributions to this country’s formative years were useless, capricious, and gossipy? I think they were useful, purposeful, and dynamic. Really, who are you Mr Dowd? And what is the identifying information about yourself that will lend authority to a single critique you make here?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
@Molly McRae:
“And you know—you—know that if the things that are said about TPs was said about any other ethnic group/culture, 80% of your audience would take to their PC fainting couches.
Oh, btw, fascism has already come to America. It was welcomed with open arms by the latest iteration of Progressives who self-describe(d) as socially liberal, fiscally conservative. How’d that work out for you guys?”
Breathtaking hypocrisy. Did you even read what you wrote?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:45 pm
Hell, half the regulars here say worse to one another…and they largely agree, politically. I think you’re on the wrong blog, Chris.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:45 pm
@MattR:
You mean like the Muslims who are “totalitarian death cult” who can’t be reasoned with?
Why call them names of course! Does that answer your question?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Are you here to get proof-reading for your latest paper in sociology? Or is there no useful purpose to the tide of inanity and insult which you are attempting to unleash?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
@sputnikgayle:
Yes indeed- Ben Franklin’s papers are what is going on here. Wow.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:48 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Yes. I would sit down at a dinner table with one of those people and call them a complete moron. Not only would I, but I have. Really, it’s not that hard. You should try it some time. They’re not going to listen to you anyway, so you might as well get some satisfaction out of speaking your mind.
And if you think that any followers of the charlatan who is Glenn Beck are going to be reasoned out of their faith, then you should invite me over to dinner where I will sit and call you a complete moron as well.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:49 pm
@handy:
Indeed.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:50 pm
@Chris Dowd:
I would sit down with em and introduce all my Black Panther friends. Sometimes words are over rated.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:52 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Huh? I don’t know any totalitarian death cult Muslims. I do know Christians who believe that to be the truth about the Muslim faith. So how do I talk to/reason with those Christians so that they will be more tolerant of Muslims? You have criticized the approach of folks here at B-J but you have not given a single substantive alternative.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:53 pm
@Chris Dowd:
I would actually venture to say that certain political views supersede the fact that they are being held by “PEOPLE,” who are often times bigots and know-nothings. I am, of course, thinking about things like white supremacy, homophobia, and “KEEP GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY MEDICARE!” And yes, I would call bigots and morons exactly that to their face. Why am I trying to shelter them from the depths of their idiocy? They’re adults, they should be able to handle it.
No. You do not.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
Somebody pick those daisies growing out of Dowd’s ass.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:55 pm
@Chris Dowd: Did you wake up in a bad mood and come to Balloon Juice looking for people to scold? Do you think what you are saying to people here is going to persuade them to change their behavior?
August 30th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Hey, if it does manage to get very polite in here, there’s always Wonkette or SadlyNo! or a million others. None of which do I believe are leading the revolution, but they are entertaining.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
Mr. Dowd—you asserted that anonymity necessarily invalidated a commenter’s contribution. Your assertion is wrong. Wow.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
@Chris Dowd:
I have, and usually I get yelled at and told to shut up because it’s rude.
Of course they can do it right back at me with no repercussions, but that’s not surprising. Conservatives can get away with things liberals can’t.
August 30th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
@sputnikgayle: Publius.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:01 pm
@El Cid: Meh. All snark and no substance tends to get dull after a while. Let’s be honest, if every Balloon Juice thread were all about trashing the joint, it would get old fast. The best threads tend to offer up some learnin’ of some kind.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:02 pm
As I recall, the Obama rallies in Virginia that I attended were largely festivals of affirmation for middle-class white Christians, too.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
@MattR:
That’s because he doesn’t have a substantive alternative. This is from one of his posts on his blog:
The sentence, “Sad to see Tennessee portrayed this way…” links to an article with the headline: “Fire at Tenn. Mosque Building Site Ruled Arson”. Now, in our world, Tennessee is not being “portrayed” in any kind of fashion. People are reporting on actions and rhetoric that have already occurred and produced tragic results. This isn’t even the first instance of vandalism at the construction site; if you will recall, someone spray painted the words “NOT WELCOME” about a month ago at the site of the proposed mosque.
But I mention all that to say…the people you know in Tennessee might be nice folks and all—and yes, there are outstanding citizens that exist all over The Volunteer State—but let’s not be naive and act like Tennessee has some kind of rich and welcoming cultural history for Others. Do not feign shock and disappointment that Tennessee is being burdened with the dismaying label of intolerance and prejudice.
But I guess that’s all you really have in your arsenal, since you don’t seem to have the ability or fortitude to call known liars and racists exactly what they are.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
@Midnight Marauder: Beyond which, you never really know what “sort” people are going to turn out to be. I had a friend who I thought was the “sort” to be appalled at the xenophobic behavior of her Republican brethren until she forwarded me a chain email complaining about how immigrants are DESTROYING OUR CULTURE!
People is crazy.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
@slag: Okay, sure, but there certainly are a billion and a half or more respectable sources for serious reporting, analysis, and discussion. It’s nice to have 1 blog do 2 different levels, but it’s not like it’s some greater burden to me as a reader of the intertrons to go to 2 whole different blogs for those different approaches.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:13 pm
@JR: What? All I was able to attend were the armed Neo Panafricanist Revolutionary Maoist Jihad Movement Obamaite rallies. I bet the ones you mentioned had better food vendors.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:15 pm
@Chris Dowd:
I don’t know. It depends how they treat me. I met a Glenn Beck tea bagger a few months ago. When I told him I supported our President, he called me a socialist. When I asked him to give an example of why he is a socialist, he couldn’t. He kept calling both me and the President socialists. I just walked away. How do you possibly talk to people who simply have no clue what they are talking about? FoxNews should do a better job in explaining the big words to these folks.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
@General Stuck:
Right after he picks Balloon Juice off his blogroll. That’s what I really find hilarious. The guy who wrote:
apparently loves this place so much, he wants to share the goodness with anyone who pops in to visit his site.
Adorable. Just simply adorable.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
@morzer:
Sorry….
I am not at all snuggly or cuddly or cute.
I am also not ashamed to call myself fiscally liberal … so no I can’t sing along with your anthem….
August 30th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
@Frank:
Reminds me of when a coworker told me she liked Obama, wanted universal healthcare, thought we needed more government money for jobs and that the government should have taken over the banking industry, but would vote Republican because Obama was a “socialist”
When I explained to her that what she wanted was socialism, she responded by saying “nah, you’re just saying that because you want the Democrats to win”
August 30th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
@Molly McRae:
You know, just for a moment your little attack on progressives had me assuming you might be a teabagger….
August 30th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
@Omnes Omnibus:
Hee
It’s driving me crazy that I can’t remember where I heard/read the joke about the two Lutherans who discover they have so much in common until it comes down to an internal theological split from 1795 or something, at which point they become mortal enemies.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:34 pm
@Betsy: I’ve heard it with a variety of Protestant groups as protagonists.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Yes, we all know about the Olden Days. Romans go home!
August 30th, 2010 at 7:41 pm
@Betsy:
Emo Phillips used to do a version of that using baptists. Here’s an interesting adaptation of it from youtube.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Is there some kind of schedule set up for “serious” progressives to come by and lecture the BJ commentariat about how things should be? Last week was Bob Lobslaw. This week, Chris Dowd …
You are making Michael Gass proud, folks.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
@The Bobs:
There is no hypocrisy there.
Is there a disconnect between what progressives espouse and the logical outcome of those beliefs enacted. Sure. But that is their ‘vision’ problem, not mine.
August 30th, 2010 at 7:57 pm
@Betsy:
Emo Phillips
August 30th, 2010 at 8:03 pm
Emo Philips:
I was walking across a bridge one day and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said,
“Stop! Don’t do it!”
“Why shouldn’t I?” he said.
“Well, there is so much to live for.”
“Like what?”
“Well, are you religious?”
He said yes.
I said, “Me too! Are you Christian?”
“Christian.”
“Me too! Are you Lutheran, Catholic or Protestant?”
“Protestant.”
“Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?”
“Baptist.”
“Wow, me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?”
“Baptist Church of the Lord.”
“Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of the Lord or are you Reformed Baptist Church of the Lord?”
“Reformed Baptist Church of the Lord.”
“Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of the Lord, reformation of 1879, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of the Lord, reformation of 1915?”
He said, “Reformed Baptist Church of the Lord, reformation of 1879.”
I said, “Die, heretic,” and pushed him off.
August 30th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
Re “anonymity”: when you click on “Chris Dowd” above, you get to a blog by somebody called Burkeman. But when you click on the link in El Cid’s comment above about the Israeli soldier, you get a post on a different blog by somebody named “Chris Floyd.”
Jussayinzall. This kind of thing is above my pay grade.
August 30th, 2010 at 8:18 pm
@eemom:
Indeed. Chris Floyd writes for that paean to progressive values the Boston Libertarian Examiner. Still, he ain’t anonymous….
August 30th, 2010 at 8:22 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Hint: I live in Kentucky. These people are everything they are described as and worse.
August 30th, 2010 at 8:28 pm
@Nick:
Goodness…!
August 30th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
@Midnight Marauder:
Yes- in “your world” Tennessee is the handful of deluded, mislead, misinformed frightened and angry people (for whatever reason they are is something I am not going to comment on as I don’t know their souls- like you presume) that is shown in the media over this incident.
How nice of you to indict the entire population of Tennessee (with the lovely reich winger caveat that there are some “good ones”- bravo) over the actions of a few.
Again- tell me what makes you different from the Mosque protesters? Oh- right- you are better than them.
Middle school bullies have more decency than you pack of shameless anonymous trolls.
Any Tennessean who happened to wander on here- looking for answers- upset at what has occurred in their state would see this shameful DISGUSTING hate and run away in dread.
But I guess that would make you feel good huh?
You people ARE THE PROBLEM.
Useless and disgusting.
August 30th, 2010 at 8:34 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Tennessee voted for McCain over Obama, 57% to 42%.
Tell us again how they’re a bastion of liberalism that we’re driving away by being so very meeeeaaaaannnnn to them.
August 30th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
@Chris Dowd:
It’s called “visiting family”, you pathetic wretch of a troll.
August 30th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
@Molly McRae:
A whole hell of a lot better than that abstinence-only thing is working out for y’all.
August 30th, 2010 at 8:45 pm
@Chris Dowd:
See that refresh button on your browser? You’re welcome to stop using it any time, asshole.
I’ve spent quite a bit of time in Tennessee. I know some awesome people who live there. Also South Carolina, Virginia, Georgia, Mississippi, Louisiana and other “red” states. But assholes are assholes no matter what state they live in.
And when someone mentions “assholes in Tennessee,” you assume that they’re indicting the entire populace just shows your reading comprehension fail.
My home state of Texas is ate up with a lot of racist, xenophobic bigoted assholes. They may make a mean peach pie and have some funny jokes and help you with your car if it’s broke down. All well and good. But they’d just as soon keep the ignorance flames burning. And for that, they’re assholes.
And from the Tennesseans I’ve known, they can defend themselves quite well. They don’t need some condescending northerner to concern troll on behalf of their fee-fees.
August 30th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Mr. Dowd. I disagree with your assertion that we are the problem. It is you sir, who has the problem. A problem of perspective.
Please, follow along with me in this example. I write: “How can you possibly fucking converse with a stupid person who is so absolutely misinformed and uncurious/uncritical/impervious to facts to the point that they inhabit a different universe than oneself?
I would imagine you would see hate in that sentence. Therein lies the problem. I don’t fucking hate that person I’m talking about. I am annoyed by them in a minor way, as if someone flamed me on a blog for not using my real name and having the gall to pick on me when they’re yelling about me picking on someone else.
If I was to speak of someone I hate, I would use even more cursewords (which I know annoys you, perhaps you even hate me) and speak of violent things happening to them. I don’t see any of that here really.
There’s no hate. There’s mockery and quips, but really no hate.
Oh, last part. Since you’re so goddamn upright and perfect and moral, how about you answer my question. Since you think it is wrong to call them names and mock them for their stupidity, how would you suggest that you deal with this crowd?
Do you think they are interested in having a discussion with you? Do you think you could sway them? Would you make fun of their names? Of course not, you wouldn’t insult a person to their face or on the internet, would you?
Seriously, take a xanax or go get high or whatever. You need to unclench.
August 30th, 2010 at 8:54 pm
@Chris Dowd:
First, what I love is how you continue to make Tennessee out to be some long-standing bastion of tolerance and diversity. That is simply hilarious. I also enjoy how you say that opposition to the mosque in Tennessee is limited to a mere “handful” of individuals, as though that is actually a real thing. But the best is your comment about how you will abstain from speculating as to the reasons for this incredible display of hatred, because you don’t know these peoples’ souls. Newsflash: You don’t need to know what’s in someone’s soul if they are telling you out loud that they are bigoted. I could not give a shit less what is in the souls of the openly ignorant and bigoted.
Except that it isn’t “a few” and I’m not indicting the entire state. What I did say is that you are delusional if you think the cultural history of a place like Tennessee lends itself to a tolerant and diverse population. I’m saying your perspective is completely unserious, good sir. Also, would you have preferred me to not include the factual “caveat” that there are, in fact, a wide array of good hearted citizens in Tennessee? Because if that’s the case, it seems like you’re constructing a dialogue in which no points but your own are legitimate.
Actually, I think it’s the fact that I do not irrationally hate and fear Muslims, and do not view them as the greatest enemy this country has ever faced. Could just be me, though.
You’re running out of steam here, Chris.
Your dear concern for the good people of Tennessee has been duly noted.
Then why in the fuck is this site on your blogroll?
August 30th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
@Chris Dowd:
You, sir, are fucknuttier than a fucknut fucknutting in a fucknutterium.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
@Chris Dowd:
if the shoe fits Chris….
I don’t see anyone in Tennessee standing up against those “few’
Yes, we’re tolerant and we don’t set fire to buildings, yes, we’re better than them.
Or maybe they’ll be disgusted on how their state is being seen from the outside and STAND THE FUCK UP AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
August 30th, 2010 at 9:06 pm
I deeply and sincerely apologize to everyone for inflaming the delicate liberal sensibilities of Chris Dowd. I mean, have I no decency sir? At long last, have I no decency?
Obviously not.
That is part of my charm.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
@Midnight Marauder:
Point well taken.
Some of the named people who contribute to this blog are interesting and have useful things to say. You however- shame this site and are of no value whatsoever. You contribute nothing constructive and it is obvious that this is a place for you to spew your mental garbage and baggage under cover of a pseudonym. Dont’ feel bad- there are lots of people like you. However therapy would be the appropriate place to spew these sorts of indecent thoughts that you don’t have the courage to say in daylight.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:13 pm
@TBogg:
Does this Chris Dowd even have a birth certificate?
August 30th, 2010 at 9:13 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Since you’re such a fucking constructive asshole, I ask you this again.
What do you suggest we do instead of mocking the teabaggers/low information voters?
Come on, be constructive.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:14 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Which of your three pseudonyms is it, Chris? Dowd? Floyd? Burkeman? Or are you just Mullah Omar kicking back after a long day planning the destruction of Real America TM?
August 30th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
I still don’t understand how he can be Chris Dowd and Chris Floyd and Burkeman all at the same time, and scold other people for using screen names, but I’m sure there is a perfectly reasonable explanation.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
@singfoom: Oooo! Ooooo! I know that one:
Death camps.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
@morzer:
dude, you are cracking my ass up today. Much appreciated!
August 30th, 2010 at 9:17 pm
@Nick:
I think I have read that post before- Oh – right- almost word for word on FR about how the dirty moooslims “dont stand up” and denounce terrorism anytime an American has their toe stubbed anyone in the world by an Islamic act of violence.
Yes- Because you- “NICK” don’t see Tennesseans out in the street on the TEEVEE then they all just be supporing Jihad – er no- excuse me- racism.
Man you are the center of your world aren’t you?
August 30th, 2010 at 9:18 pm
@morzer: I’m sure if you ask nicely, he’ll fax you his credenza.
@eemom:
The last refuge for scoundrels is bitching about people using pseudonyms.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:18 pm
@eemom: Is there something hard to understand here? My blog is an old screen name- chris floyd is a LINK to an article I mentioned.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:19 pm
@TBogg:
hey, how come he ain’t trolling YOUR blog?
August 30th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Can you see Nashville from your house, Mullah Omar?
August 30th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
@Chris Dowd:
I doubt you’ll answer but again, how would you suggest we approach the crowd we’ve been talking about? Facts won’t work, that’s already pretty clear.
Come on, answer the question.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
@eemom: As I understand it, the FDL registration system is quite onerous and weeds out the weak leaving them on a hillside for the wolves to eat.
Also. Grover Norquist. Too.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
@Chris Dowd:
no, it’s the concept that you’re allowed to use a screen name and we’re not that eludes me.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Only a cowardly yellow cur would use a screen name, son. Did your daddy forget to give you a real name before he left in the morning?
Also too: where’s your birth certificate, Mullah Omar?
August 30th, 2010 at 9:27 pm
@singfoom:
Why don’t you start by putting your name on your posts and talk to each other rather than use this place as a gossip central for your mental garbage.
But again- if this is all you want to do- fine. Go at it. I did it too. For YEARS. I’m no innocent. I said a lot of shit hiding behind screen names that I would never say on my own. I took a long hard look at myself and asked myself what I was doing? What did I think I was accomplishing with all this stuff I was spewing under cover of a screen name?
But you know- now that I think about- I don’t know you. I don’t know your reasons for being here- fun- community – camaraderie. Maybe you don’t take this seriously at all- and it is just fun and all. If that is it- fine. I should apologize.
But I think if you want to go out there and actually try and do something? Change a mind? Just one . . . and if you all did that . . . ?
Yeah- maybe that is “Kumbayaa” and “hippie” peace stuff. You know what? We could use it. I think.
August 30th, 2010 at 9:28 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Any day now, the preliminary report of the steering committee will see the light…
August 30th, 2010 at 9:31 pm
is it too late to suggest that this guy may be a DougJ spoof?
August 30th, 2010 at 9:31 pm
@Chris Dowd:
What you so all fired het up about, son?
You don’t like the fact that mostly like-minded folk hang out and chat about stuff? That got ya frettin’?
Don’t really see why it’s any of your business, but that’s just me.
By the way, that article you linked to on the Israeli soldier was sickening. A proud moment in our continuing dehumanization of Muslims and Arabs. Thanks for linking.
August 30th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
@Svensker:
Totally correct. Hanging out and chatting is fine.
In fact, I feel stupid for saying anything on such a forum.
Enjoy- and apologies.
August 30th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
@Chris Dowd:
I’m not going to use my real name because I don’t ever want to meet you.
There is absolutely no reason to take a tone troll seriously, you have nothing to say. It’s just over and over you getting the vapors and tut-tutting.
August 30th, 2010 at 10:21 pm
@Chris Dowd:
And yet again we will ask, how do we do that? What approach should we be using to change the minds of people who won’t listen to reason? You seem to be quite serious when scolding the commentariat here, but never quite serious enough to provide an alternative path.
August 30th, 2010 at 10:22 pm
@Chris Dowd:
you know, Muslims actually do stand up and denounce terrorism, unfortunately when they do, they’re still accused of being terrorists by the very people you’re defending. Exhibit A: Mr. Rauf.
August 30th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
@Chris Dowd:
I’m having a hard time imagining a scenario in which anyone who’d go to that Glenn Beck thing would be interested in having dinner with a black pagan feminist (mostly) lesbian.
August 30th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
@Chris Dowd:
No worries, mate.
August 30th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
@Chris Dowd:
This cannot be real.
+6
August 30th, 2010 at 10:29 pm
@Chris Dowd:
My name is irrelevant and none of your goddamned business. You still haven’t answered my question. Changing a mind is impossible when all evidence that does not fit into a preconceived worldview is ignored, or at least close to fucking impossible as to be so, that is the difficulty.
goodnight, troll
August 30th, 2010 at 10:41 pm
Look- I’ve been very presumptuous concerning the motives, reasons, and “whys” people come here. I don’t know you people.
All I can say is this- I posted for years and years on various forums – just like this- with a screen name and I said all sorts of stuff that I would never say to anyone in real life to their face. Over time I just angrier and angrier- and ashamed of myself. I was a useless cackling name caller- cloistered with my own little tribal group of name callers and I was doing nothing. Nothing but spewing my own hate and venom and rage at the world. Impotent. A coward.
There are things I wrote- nothing that isn’t par for the course when it comes to such forums- but still- I ashamed.
Come out into the light. It ain’t so bad. In fact- it is pretty nice.
Yeah- it sucks that humanity doesn’t match up to our expectations doesn’t it? You can sit in a room and chat with each other. Or you can engage the real world. Yeah yeah- I know- they are evil and won’t listen and so on . . . so I will sit here and stew in my own pure and innocent stew. . .
Ok.
August 30th, 2010 at 10:43 pm
@Darkrose:
Well- that would be their loss now would’nt it?
I’m sure you are much more than just your labels for yourself. A cook? Teacher? A romantic? A realist? A warm heart? A cold heart? Music lover? Movie goer? Food connoisseur?
I used to call myself a “libertarian”. I don’t anymore because that is not me. Not just because I have changed my mind on politics lately- but also because it doesn’t describe me- not even close.
August 30th, 2010 at 10:53 pm
@Chris Dowd: It’s a real shame that you have projected the fact that you were a cowardly prick when you posted pseudonymously onto everyone else commenting here at B-J.
August 30th, 2010 at 10:59 pm
@MattR:
Have a good night.
Chris Dowd.
August 30th, 2010 at 11:02 pm
Aaaaaannnnnddddd…
scene.
+8
August 30th, 2010 at 11:04 pm
Again, point well taken…except as far as it concerns progressive interests, this is all irrelevant. The only aspect about a Tea Party person’s personality I care about is the one that walks into the voting booth. Because that’s the one is the biggest threat to democracy in America, not whether people on a blog are mean to them.
August 30th, 2010 at 11:09 pm
FYWP.
August 30th, 2010 at 11:09 pm
@handy:
Well fine. Then you gotta talk to them.
I mean is that is what is going on here? You just want to demonize them as they do the Muslims- who likewise “can’t be reasoned with”?
So what then? If they can’t be reasoned with I’ll call them names that will make it less likely that they can be reasoned with still further?
Because if that is the case- if they can’t be reasoned with- what is your solution? Say it? What? What do you do with a bunch of racists who can’t be talked too?
Again- I am not suggesting this is an activist site or anything like that. This is more than likely not even the right place to get into this since it is a chat room for progressives and allies and so forth. But if you really believe that they can’t be talked to- then what should be done?
I refuse to believe that. For my own sake.
You are gonna find people who can’t be talked too. I have- plenty. But most can be. Don’t let the loudest and shrillest and most orthodox of any group scare you away. Don’t let the group ethos tell you that the other side is so evil that they can’t be won over or convinced otherwise of their politics.
August 30th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Until someone gets fired for using their real name to post something the boss disagrees with.
August 30th, 2010 at 11:20 pm
@arguingwithsignposts:
Perhaps that is a big concern for some people. Point taken.
August 30th, 2010 at 11:25 pm
@Chris Dowd:
I had a bunch of other stuff in the post you’re responding to, but WP decided to eat it, which makes me sad, but the gist of it was that with the Scaifes, Murdochs, and Kochs running things, progressives are better off mobilizing their own tribe rather than trying to “win the other side for Christ.” The amount of misinformation people have ingested is too vast and deep at this point to undo. Obama and the Democrats took the “pragmatic” route and did very little in the interests of working people, otherwise the dynamic of this coming election would be different, and maybe we can all get along and be reasonable with one another. But from what I see, that shipped sailed along time ago. Amongst a large segment of people that matter in a participatory democracy, that is voters, right wing radio is king. And it’s king because it feeds into people’s own sense of what you call tribalism.
But your mileage may very.
August 30th, 2010 at 11:34 pm
@handy:
I ain’t gonna lie to you. It’s grim. I see my friends parroting some of this stuff and it alarms me- scares me actually.
But not all of it. They don’t parrot all of it. There is a sense – however dim- that they are being hoodwinked. In fact- most Americans understand this to one degree or another. That they tend to see who is doing the hoodwinking through their own tribal lenses is the problem. And this then gets exacerbated by name calling- which is encouraged it seems to me.
August 30th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
@Chris Dowd:
I’m pretty sure people have been asking you this question for quite some time now in this thread, since you were the one tut-tutting our “approach.”
So let’s say that there is about…27% of the population that is unreachable. Your suggestions for breaking through this self-made cocoon of ignorance are…?
August 30th, 2010 at 11:43 pm
You guys rock hard. I want to marry this thread. Done.
As for pseudonyms—eh, already went through this. As long as what I am saying is consistent with what I believe, what difference does it make what my name is? You can find my name if you click on my username, but will it give me any more credence since very few people here know me in real life? Not really. And, yes, if someone came up to me and started spouting this shit to my face, I would tell that person he is a moron. Or an idiot. Or clueless or what not. I don’t want to win anyone to my side because that 27% will not be persuaded, and they are a waste of my time. Someone wants to tell me I’m going to hell—have at it. I don’t give a shit. My own niece told me that (though she did because she was sad that she wouldn’t get to see me any more), and I didn’t wither up and die. I will be damned if I have to justify my existence to anyone.
Am I better than them? In this case, yes. I’m not trying to kill anyone for having a different belief. I’m not the one filled with hate at the idea that someone else might be getting a little sliver of the pie. If they would just keep their shit to themselves and be content to kill off each other, I wouldn’t have to bother with them at all. The fact that they have any impact on our political system means I have to pay some attention to them, and that rankles me.
As for Douthat—he’s a fucking idiot. What’s worse, he’s getting paid biggish monies for this wankery.
@singfoom: I must tell you that I have thoroughly enjoyed your comments on this thread. Carry on!
August 30th, 2010 at 11:44 pm
@asiangrrlMN:
What’s agitating and I’m surprised John didn’t point this out, Douthat said this when on another part of the NYT website, Krugman warns of the impending disaster that will be brought on by what Douthat praises
August 30th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
@Midnight Marauder:
Macro or micro? I can’t speak to progressive political strategy but surely whatever goals you have are not helped by encouraging an atmosphere that is going to hand the most vocal Tea Party victim hood bloggers and leaders fodder to those who might be inclined to listen to them. It does no good to call people redneck racist losers.
You know- lately I am more inclined to buy into Progressive analysis of race relations in this country- that the problem is much deeper than the superficial and quite limited definitions of racism used by conservatives.
And I think, perhaps, this deeper analysis, this deeper understanding of race that progressives have- that you all understand and have a much better grasp of than most people out there- makes you enraged that they don’t get it. Well they don’t. Not yet. You do understand that you are asking these people to look into their souls on these questions? That is very tough to do. Most people don’t want to look in the mirror – not even for a second.
But rather than approaching these people and becoming hostile at the dumb careless language they use- at the patterns of their thinking that offend you- think of ways to get around it. Think of ways to be empathetic- to make them empathetic.
You know- this is a small example- but I just got a text from a friend a couple hours ago- a Glenn Beck watcher and partial believer. Been at him for months over this stuff. Here is the text:
“Ok- oh and by the way- what’s your take on this Beck rally thing. I can’t put my finger on why but it makes me somehow uncomfortable or unsettled.”
My response: “Same way- we’ll talk tmrw- not a text thing.”
Chin up.
August 31st, 2010 at 12:01 am
@Nick: Yeah. No shit. Double wanker.
@Chris Dowd: You know, and I say this sincerely, if you can do that, it’s commendable. You may be able to make a dent with the people on the margins of all the hate.
Personally, it’s not my job to coddle white people and their fear of the other—which includes me. I don’t want to have to deal with the ramifications of such isms (racism, sexism, homophobia, religion-ism (and yes, I just made that up)) and then have to mollify the people who are perpetuating it and/or dabbling with it. That’s a double-blow to me, and what’s more, it’s a waste of my time since said person will always dismiss what I have to say because I am who I am.
August 31st, 2010 at 12:06 am
@asiangrrlMN:
Yeah- I can understand that. But when politics is getting more and more to the forefront of everyone’s brain- it is getting harder to avoid such conversations. Sometimes I want to scream at people- shout them down. But have you ever listened to a screamer? But at the same time I won’t retreat from what I know is right if people force me to talk politics. I won’t. And if I have to- I am going to devise ways to talk to people in terms they understand (no matter how unfair those terms might be) – to reach them.
Ok- now I am annoying even myself.
August 31st, 2010 at 12:16 am
@Chris Dowd: Funny, because now you’re way less annoying than you were at the beginning! The thing is, for all the snarking here, most people on this blog have very good hearts. This is a place to vent and to let off steam before going out to face the real world. And, snark and sarcasm are two favorite weapons on this blog (as you have found out). It’s one reason I really enjoy coming here. And, as you have also found out, people are willing to engage in a discussion if you take the time. Good on you for sticking it out.
August 31st, 2010 at 12:23 am
@asiangrrlMN:
I do enjoy this blog because every major event during a day is posted. Plus I can steal ideas about what to talk about cause I am a lazy blogger.
Time for the tension tamer tea- something stupid and funny on the tube- and off to bed.
G’Night.
August 31st, 2010 at 12:27 am
@Chris Dowd:
And this is why I don’t take a lot of what you have to say seriously. You want to hold up one thread as an illustrative example of how the commentariat of this site responds to their political opposition, and you entirely misrepresent the words of the people commenting in this thread.
No one called these individuals “rednecks.” If you do a quick search of this thread, you’ll see the term only pops up five times, all of which involve you. You might see people calling them racists, because they are, in fact, racists. And the only person called a loser was Ross Douthat, which is simply a statement of fact.
Regardless, you are attempting to defend a population that is not amenable to logic, reason, or facts. They do not want to accept the truth because it is unpleasant to them and the worldview they have constructed. Wait a minute…it seems that you do understand this concept:
Yes…yes, this is right. But what else do you have to say?
And this is where it falls apart. Because, as you acknowledge, there is a large segment of the citizenry in this country that does not want to be empathetic to The Other. They do not want to get around their pattern of thinking. They hate Muslims and they hate The Gays and the shiftless, lazy Blacks and the job-stealing Mexicans.
So how do you breakthrough with these people, Chris? That’s the question being posed to you. And please don’t tell me that “make them empathize” is your best answer.
August 31st, 2010 at 12:29 am
@asiangrrlMN:
I do enjoy this blog because every major event during a day is posted. Plus I can steal ideas about what to talk about cause I am a lazy blogger.
Time for the tension tamer tea- something stupid and funny on the tube- and off to bed.
G’Night.@Midnight Marauder:
August 31st, 2010 at 12:41 am
@Chris Dowd: Good night, Chris. Sleep well.
@Midnight Marauder: I will be blunt with you—you and I cannot do it. Only someone white may have a chance. Slim to none. As I told Chris, not my thing, not my fight.
August 31st, 2010 at 12:41 am
Fine- they can’t be. You have won.
G’nite.
August 31st, 2010 at 12:42 am
@slag:
hris. Midnight Marauder did have a point here:
I would actually venture to say that certain political views supersede the fact that they are being held by “PEOPLE,” who are often times bigots and know-nothings. I am, of course, thinking about things like white supremacy, homophobia, and “KEEP GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY MEDICARE!” And yes, I would call bigots and morons exactly that to their face. Why am I trying to shelter them from the depths of their idiocy? They’re adults, they should be able to handle it.
Though I doubt anyone would call people names to their face – the internet allows for bad behavior because of anonymity – his point is valid – how do we change these peoples minds?
I recall we – and I mean Chris and I – spent a lot of bandwidth trying to insert logic and reality into several posters who refused to be shaken of their belief that Saddam had the WMD sent via secret Russian Spetnaz to Lebanon or out to sea on phantom ships. You remember those attempts to use logic to shake them of this belief?
We tried using logic and facts and it did not work.
What would?
I think we should also acknowledge that those that tend to listen to Beck do so because they already had this world view and were yearning for someone to express it for them. Beck has not converted one person. These people that gravitate towards Beck and his fellow TV and radio ideologues and were at this “Restore Honor” festival probably already had these preconceived notions and would leave Beck if Beck changed his mind and admitted he was wrong and saw the light.
These groups are not looking for enlightenment but rather reinforcement of their inherited beliefs. –
I posted this response on Chris’ blog as well.
August 31st, 2010 at 4:58 pm
It is amazing how you know the souls of all those people. Do you have any conception of how presumptuous that is? If you were to say that at a dinner party in mixed company people would politely change the subject and mark you as a know it all- if not worse.
Again- I will say this- the people you and I talked to on FR all those years ago about WMD and the lies that got the war going are sick. They are representative of no one but themselves. They are anonymous online cowards spouting crap that most people- people who have shame- would not in a million years spout in public with their name attached.
How do you know what hundreds of thousands of Glenn Beck listeners (watchers) believe? Huh? How do you know their motivations? Their fears?
Most people can be talked to “Destro”.
So what fantasy are you entertaining then? Tell me what “Destro” is thinking?
I don’t know you but let me guess: “Oh these disgusting people- with their diseased brains – born bigots all of them- useless scum- can’t be talked to . . . so we got to . . . . ”
Not right? Rash of me to say about you? You are damned right. So what gives you the right- other than your anonymity to spout that nonsense about people you don’t know?
August 31st, 2010 at 5:31 pm
@Chris Dowd:
Most. Which would seemingly not include everyone. Leaving you with a population that is not interested in constructive dialogue.
So how do you approach them, Chris? This is the question you avoided all day yesterday, only to get a few REM cycles under your belt and avoid again today.
EDIT: And why the fuck are you so concerned with souls and the fee-fees of dinner party guests who subscribe to bigoted positions?
August 31st, 2010 at 5:54 pm
I already told you what I have done. I have changed minds (my family- my friends) And admittedly it isn’t enough.
What have you done? Other than come on here with your stupid screen name- and construct some monolithic diseased template of your enemies- every bit as comical and dehumanizing and INDECENT than the idiots who spout crap about “Islam” – reducing a billion plus people with hopes and dreams- sons and daughters- lovers and friends- to some monolithic satanic force on the march to destroy them?
So again- if it is your position that your political foes can’t be talked to- are not people (and that is what you are saying) then why don’t you tell this whole forum what the “Mass Marauder” wants to see happen?
August 31st, 2010 at 6:05 pm
@Chris Dowd: It may be presumption on my part but coming from a marketing background I tend to see people as demographics.
I see the Internet battleground being the kooks on freerepublic or the listeners of Glenn Beck as people who already had these preconceived notions. They are as you say “sick” but don’t represent the rest of their demographic. But I will counter that the way this works is that the faithful slowly undermine the mostly unaware populous and before you know it perfectly sane people who are not into politics 24/7 think Obama is a Marxist, Atheist, Muslim.
So we need to figure out how to blunt these messengers. Ridicule may work. Maybe it backfires and drives people into the kook ranks.
August 31st, 2010 at 10:03 pm
@Chris Dowd: I already told you what I have done. I have changed minds (my family- my friends) And admittedly it isn’t enough.
I assume they were Catholics for the most part? It helps that the Pope condemned the Iraq war as an illegal war. I don’t want to start a religious argument here but I do think American Protestantism of a certain variety is at fault here. European Protestants don’t go for such nonsense as their American co-religionists do I find.
Pope John Paul II calls War a Defeat for Humanity: Neoconservative Iraq Just War Theories Rejected
Americans were largely unaware of the depth and importance of the opposition of Church leaders to an attack on Iraq, since for the most part the mainstream media did not carry the stories. In the same way, many Americans were unaware that Pope John Paul II spoke against the first Gulf War 56 times. Media in the United States omitted this from the commentaries on the war.
September 1st, 2010 at 3:16 am