I’m sure this will come as a surprise to no one, but it appears that the Rev. Franklin Graham doesn’t know wtf he is talking about when it comes to Islam. Hoocoodanode:
Evangelist (and hateful bigot) Franklin Graham said this weekend that President Obama was ‘born a Muslim’ because, he said, Islam is transmitted through the father just as Judaism is transmitted through the mother.
Presumably it is this sort of thinking that has led an increasing number of Americans to believe, incorrectly, that Obama is a Muslim.
Graham as usual is not only hateful but also plain wrong. The Talmudic rule that one is a Jew by virtue of having a Jewish mother has been responsible for imagining the Jewish people as a race as well as a religion. (They are not actually a race, of course, and most Jewish women are descended from a Gentile ancestor).
But Muslims are not a race even in the imagining, but rather a world-religion to which belong people of virtually every ethnic group in the world. Thus, unlike in Judaism, one is not born a Muslim. Rather, children of Muslim parents who embrace Islam typically recite the confession of faith around puberty and undertake to fulfill the obligations of Islamic law at that time. Until that time, they are not mukallaf or obliged to perform the rituals of the religion. Franklin’s allegation would imply that children are Muslim by birth and have to fast the month of Ramadan when they are 5. It is ridiculous.
Seriously, though. Don’t they cover this kind of stuff in seminary? What exactly do you learn if you don’t learn how the world’s largest religion is transmitted?
And again, as a non-believer, I have a hard time explaining how extremely surreal it is to watch all these penis-measuring contests over whose God is better.
me
So then religion is an STD?
Also, my mom was raised Catholic and my dad Lutheran. So which was transmitted to me?
Kryptik
“Do you believe on God?”
“No.” BOOM!
“DEAD! Do you believe in God?”
“Yes.”
“Do you believe in my God?”
“No.” BOOM!
“DEAD! My god has a bigger dick than your god!”
schrodinger's cat
Ceiling cat is the best, ask Tunch.
arguingwithsignposts
No. SATSQ. There is very little coverage of Islam in most seminaries of the Graham persuasion (speaking as someone who spent a few years in one such SBC seminary).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
How is it that anyone is paying attention to this nitwit, anyway? Megan McCain, Frank Sinatra Jr and George W Bush wouldn’t let this imbecile into the meeting of their lucky sperm club. I realize as a godless secularist I am wont to be unfamiliar with Red State culture (I was shocked that “Dr” Laura was still on the air, not so much that she’s a stupid bigot), but when was the last time Pappy Graham made a public appearance? Would Rick Warren and Joel Osteen even return this hump’s phone calls?
Ruckus
Why is it that the one with the smallest penis wins? Or do the kinds of people who engage in these contests all have small or non existent male organs and just wish they were bigger?
suzanne
@me:
Sure. Socially transmitted dumbassery.
schrodinger's cat
@arguingwithsignposts: They don’t even seem to know the differences between the religions they are supposed to hate, remember the monkey god comment from last week?
BTW what is SBC?
Ruckus
@suzanne:
Socially transmitted dumbassery.
That has to become a tag
Lolis
Yay for non-believers. Most of us are more educated about religions than those who believe in them.
General Stuck
The wingnut preachers are now going for blood, literally. They hate Obama so much as to deny his long life as a church gong Christian, albeit with a commie revolutionary preacher, to bring him down. I am sure there is some place in the bible that condemns this sort of heresy, and likely a special one in the fiery pits, also too.
I used to like his daddy growing up. He seemed like a breath of fresh air from the utterly insane southern Baptist nutjobs that ruled our little hells half acre.
Ruckus
@Lolis:
That’s what helps make you a non-believer.
salacious crumb
its funny but Franklin Graham’s dad met with Nixon to complain about Jews and how Jews were spreading their vile ideas by taking over Hollywood and spreading filth. Of course, one’s those transcripts were released couple of years back Daddy Graham apologized profusely and said he was naive back then.
of course Muslims are the new Jews and mini-Graham is making his bigoted daddy (now dead) proud. Clearly the father wasnt repentant and said sorry to placate a powerful and we-will-take-no-shit constituency. Now the son has some very bigoted shoes to fill
Mark-NC
I believe that the thing religion teaches is: how NOT to think.
For example, I asked my Republican loving former missionary brother how he could support people who torture. He literally started to laugh. He said he would check to see if there was a scripture that said it was wrong so he’d know what to think.
Stunning – at least to me.
GregB
Hey Mr. Franklin,
Judged not lest ye be judged. Asshole.
God
arguingwithsignposts
@schrodinger’s cat:
Southern Baptist Convention. Daddy Graham is actually ordained by the SBC, IIRC. And the Graham imprimatur is worth a shit-ton more than Warren’s is at this point. He’s like the evangelical pope, although the longer he lingers, the less his influence.
Franklin is an idiot, though.
JGabriel
Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Megan McCain? She produces sperm too?
.
smiley
This week’s brilliant letter to the editor in my local newspaper:
Davis X. Machina
Depends on who you study with. I read the Koran with Jesuits. Twice, once in HS, once in college. One of them could read it in Arabic, having taught when a scholastic at Baghdad College.
arguingwithsignposts
@smiley:
Wow, the logic … it is so … so … um …
i got nothin.
GregB
Rev. Billy Graham is still alive.
His son is brain dead though….
Omnes Omnibus
@smiley: Without Peter Stuyvesant there would be no Ground Zero either. Let’s start hating the Dutch.
Sly
Protestant fundamentalists don’t go to seminary. They believe that everyone should read the Bible for themselves, without instruction, because then they’d magically come to the only possible correct opinion on millennia-old allegories, aphorisms, and vague prophecies.
arguingwithsignposts
@Davis X. Machina:
Yes, it should be pointed out here that, for all his claims to be the “president’s pastor” (or whatever that lame b.s. is), Graham is a pretty proto-typical southern evanglical. The main difference being, he didn’t get caught with his pants down, or his hands in the collection plate.
Kryptik
@arguingwithsignposts:
My response to that would’ve been:
“And without Christianity, there’d be no Islam. So who’s really to blame?”
Like Jon Stewart said: Six Degrees of People Who Don’t Eat Bacon.
schrodinger's cat
@arguingwithsignposts: Thanks! I find it all the different protestant denominations highly confusing, I also have very little idea of what makes them different from each other.
suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: And that Minoru Yamasaki asshole.
freelancer
This isn’t usually my role, but I want to make a point about persuasion here. I’m a nonbeliever, and I despise irrational hatred wherever it is found. Frank Graham is a crazy person, but then again, most people who cling to loudspeakers in this country tend to be irrational, or at least speak in bombastic, insane populist drivel.
We shouldn’t take a person like Graham and hold him up as representative of every theist in this country and world. That would be a strawman, and a mistake. I’m not saying we shouldn’t call out Graham’s nonsense, or walk on eggshells while defending reason. We should avoid those liberal-esque inclinations vehemently. This post began with me thinking of Phil Plait’s speech about Skeptical Activism at The Amazing Meeting 8 in July, and in two paragraphs, I’ve already presented some of his larger points, so in an effort to not plagiarize him any futher, I think it would be extremely beneficial for everyone here to take 30 minutes and listen to what Plait says:
“Don’t Be a Dick”.
soonergrunt
@schrodinger’s cat:
SBC==Southern Baptist Convention
Not an organized church like the Catholics. Not even an organized church like the Methodists. The Methodists are too formal in their organization for the Baptists.
Basically, all you have to do to become a baptist minister is give some money to another baptist minister to call you a minister, rent a storefront, and then you can start fleecing the rubes.
The flipside of that coin is that the baptist church doesn’t really have an organization. The Southern Baptist Convention is entirely voluntary for baptist congregations to join or leave, so when they say they speak for “the Baptist Church” they are essentially lying to magnify their power.
arguingwithsignposts
@Sly:
Actually, no. There are strains of fundamentalism which do believe in seminary (see, for example, Dallas Theological Seminary or the Master’s Seminary of nutjob John MacArthur), and don’t believe in individual interpretation apart from some governing structure. They’re still nuts, but don’t oversimplify.
suzanne
@schrodinger’s cat:
Some of them are sane. And some of them are fundamentalist.
scav
@smiley: a list of christian checkmates would be far far to easy to come up it and wouldn’t make a damn bit of difference in their minds. All we can do is pretend to enjoy all these self-declared holy and enlightened souls show what they’re truly made of and indirectly, reveal a better understanding of their actual gods (that is to say, what they actually, instead of in pretense, worship). It’s not exactly news.
ETA: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Plus the whole actions louder than words thing.
Kryptik
@freelancer:
He isn’t a representative of all theists. But sadly, he is fairly representative of the sorts of ‘Christians’ that get all the media time, and have successfully warped the whole, larger arching religion in the public discourse to be instantly attributable to the kind of apocalyptic fundamentalist Arch-Christianity espoused by folks like him and Pat Robertson and the like.
Sadly, the only difference here between that and the way Islam is seen here is that it’s seen as a good thing for Christianity to be defined by its crazy fundies, but a bad thing for Islam. Funny how that works….fuckin’ media.
arguingwithsignposts
@soonergrunt:
Again with the oversimplifications. The Southern Baptists are no different than Northern Baptists in their governing structure. Each church is independent of the national organization, and may ordain whomever it sees fit. But they do have a statement of principles, called the baptist faith and message. and any church that doesn’t subscribe to those beliefs cannot claim to be SBC.
Ordination *can* be done for people without a seminary degree, but the vast majority of SBC churches won’t hire a pastor who doesn’t have at least an MDiv. (FSM help you if you have a degree other than an MDiv, like an M.Ed.)
And, it should be noted that the “baptist” organizational system descends from the puritans. Methodism has more in common with anglican, presbyterian or catholic management structures.
Flugelhorn
Isn’t Christianity the world’s largest religion? I believe Christianity covers about about 33% of the worlds population? Islam is second with half a billion members fewer than Christianity.
Robert Denby
@smiley: Without the Wright Brothers there’d be no Ground Zero. Chickens coming home to roost.
arguingwithsignposts
@Flugelhorn:
It depends on whose numbers you’re using. for instance, the SBC claims over 15 million members, but a lot of those numbers are just people “on the rolls” who maybe show up for a Christmas service, or on Easter. Likewise, the Catholics consider anyone who was baptized as a catholic (correct me if I’m wrong here, catholics) as still a member of the church, even though they may consider themselves atheists or whatever.
So determining who’s dick is bigger wrt the world population is a little dicey.
Dick Weathers
That’s okay, according to my religious upbringing Graham’s not really even a Christian.
RedKitten
And the Wright brothers, too! They were American, and without them, 9/11 wouldn’t have happened! Any proper American should really loathe Americans for their role in 9/11.
El Cid
Hey, it doesn’t matter what religion any children of Muslims are. The children are guilty because of what their parents or grandparents or great-grandparents or great-great-grandparents believed.
Svensker
@Sly:
The ones I know went to Westminster Seminary in Escondido, CA.
Calming Influence
Jesus and Mohammed are out for a walk one day, and come to a bridge crossing the Jordan. Jesus stops and says “Hold up, Mo, I gotta drain the snake.” So they both drape their penises over the side of the bridge and proceed to urinate. Mohammed looks over at Jesus and says “Man, that water’s cold!” A moment later, Jesus looks back at Mohammed and says “Yeah; and deep, too!”
El Cid
@El Cid: By the way, the first part is a complete and utter fraud, given that the Jews weren’t enslaved in Egypt and no one brought them out. Entirely made up. Nonsense.
Brachiator
This issue was also covered well on Friday’s Hardball, which may still be available online and on iTunes. There was a guest host sitting in for Chris Matthews, by the way.
This really gets to the heart of the matter. And as some of the guests on the Hardball episode emphasized, you have this repugnant conflation of the idea that Obama is The Other also reinforcing the idea that he is not the legitimate president of the country.
And here in Southern California, the two most popular radio drive time hosts found it “suspicious” that Obama sought to elevate Islam to the status of real American religions by having a Ramadan dinner.
Again and again, you have this malignant insistence that Muslims are not, perhaps, cannot be part of the American fabric, and that 9/11 is their original sin, a sin which cannot easily be expunged. And, to the degree to which he insists on taking sides with Muslims, Obama reveals how little he really cares about Real Americans.
What makes this bigotry even more despicable is the ease with which people like Graham and Palin and Newt pick it up and run with it.
arguingwithsignposts
@El Cid:
What the fuck are you talking about. I personally watched tape of Charleton Heston walking them out of Egypt after Yul Brynner let them go!
Heretic! Burn!
noncarborundum
@JGabriel:
No, but she was produced by sperm.
schrodinger's cat
@arguingwithsignposts: I still say that Ceiling Cat is better, I am sure Lady Smudge agrees.
Violet
@Brachiator:
Yep. This is it exactly. Anything they can do to “other” him is what they’re going to do.
El Cid
@arguingwithsignposts: In my defense, I had only been reading pre-Hestonian literature.
JGabriel
Flugelhorn: that would be correct. According to Wikipedia, Christianity has 2.3-2.5 billion adherents, while Islam is second with about 1.0-1.2 billion.
.
Svensker
@El Cid:
You read Sumerian?
arguingwithsignposts
@El Cid:
Good thing they had those closed-circuit cameras then, wasn’t it?
Cat Lady
Why would anyone who isn’t already a total asshole wingnut pay any attention to what a cracker like Graham (!) thinks about anything? He’s trolling the Deliverance demographic, because Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker’s absence have left pockets unpicked, and because he’s the Luke Russert of Southern Baptism, he’s got an “in”.
Anne Laurie
@Davis X. Machina: Jesuits are for producing unbelievers. Ask the Dominicans that taught me through 12 years of parochial school. The most “dedicated” Dominicans thought the Jesuits were more dangerous to The Faith than Hollywood, Madison Avenue, and Secularists combined.
soonergrunt
@arguingwithsignposts: I freely and willfully admit my oversimplification. I’ll also note that there are a LOT of storefront churches here in OKC and some of these other communities, and one occasionally sees that the minister’s CV ends with Podunk East High School or the Welding Program, Western Technology Center, Weatherford, OK.
I’ll grant that most established baptist churches have boards that will set standards for the minister they hire, but there are more than a few people round these parts who make their living as ministers in little storefront churches and failed Food Lion stores.
noncarborundum
@El Cid:
As I understand it, there’s no real certainty one way or the other. Some scholars say that the ancient Israelites may have been an amalgamation of various tribes, some of whom may actually have spent some time in Egypt. But the story of a unified group who slaved in Egypt, escaped, wandered for forty years, invaded Canaan and ultimately became Israel – yes, that’s most likely a fabrication.
JGabriel
@noncarborundum:
True, though I’m not sure that qualifies her for the Lucky Sperm Club. After all, Cindy had the money, not John.
So, even by the criteria of inherited privilege, Megan is still more of a Lucky Egg type.
.
MikeJ
@Anne Laurie: The guy who writes the Real Live Preacher blog says that if seminary doesn’t make you alternately doubt the existence of and dislike god, you’re doing it wrong.
matoko_chan
But Cole…..every human is born muslim.
After the human is born, they should follow their parent s faith until they are old enough to choose for themselves.
We don’t believe in original sin.
Here is one of my favorite stories of the great quranic translator, Marmaduke Pickthall.
Many of the famous quranic translators became muslims. I was introduced to the Qur’an in my arabic class….arabic is a gateway drug for islam.
arguingwithsignposts
@soonergrunt:
Sadly, that is true. And these days, the SBC seminaries and undergrad schools are all about pushing out certificates for those types as well.
I actually knew several people in seminary who worked in storefront churches while they were working their way through seminary. Probably more common in some places than others. Most of the storefronts you’re talking about sound like they’d be Independent Baptist, who believe the SBC is apostate, anyway. I saw a whole lot of those in South Carolina while I was there.
Wingnut fundamentalism. sigh.
El Cid
@noncarborundum: There were a number of people in Egypt. It was a huge civilization. I have no doubt that a tribe or two or several dozen lived under shitty conditions, and occasionally left. This has nothing to do with the bullshit “Exodus” mythology.
noncarborundum
@JGabriel:
But does she owe her current position and influence, such as they are, to the egg or to the sperm? I suspect if she weren’t specifically John McCain’s daughter, we would never have heard of her.
Nethead Jay
Olbermann had a good segment on Franklin Graham’s vile nonsense on friday’s Countdown. I really liked the forcefulness of Michael Eric Dyson’s comments as well as the direct jabs at CNN.
gwangung
You had the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS, WORD FOR FORD, when they were talking about Chinese and Japanese and Irish back in the 19th Century.
Dudes. Come up with some NEW racist, xenophobic arguments.
JGabriel
@arguingwithsignposts:
In theory, you have to go through first communion and confirmation before you’re a member of the church.
In practice, yeah, they’re counting baptismal certificates.
.
Anne Laurie
@Cat Lady:
Oww. That’s gotta sting… because it’s true.
arguingwithsignposts
@MikeJ:
I read that guy for a long time. I always say: “If you want to get through seminary with your faith intact, don’t work on the campus.” I worked in PR and printing, and saw way too much sausage being made.
noncarborundum
@El Cid:
I believe I covered that in my final sentence.
JGabriel
@noncarborundum:
Paris Hilton.
.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Cid: With your ‘nym? For shame, sir.
MikeJ
@JGabriel: Of course most religions count as members all people who are culturally members, regardless of actual belief or observance. I was just listening to an interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali about this very subject today, and her observation of the muslim world matches what I’ve seen of christians.
Alwhite
@El Cid:
I find it interesting that this little tidbit gets no attention. There has been a tremendous amount of new information uncovered in the desert at Giza showing that the pyramids were built by volunteer Egyptian labor. Funny how the fundies and Zionists that use Exodus as an excuse for a lot of hate ignore that.
IQ49
Why would any good Catholic listen to Graham? He’s an Evangelist! Clearly, he has renounced the ONE TRUE FAITH. Therefore, like all Muslims, he is a heretic.
matoko_chan
The thing that americans simply don’t seem to get….we are all people of the book. The christian god is our allah is the jews’ yahweh. monotheism.
We DON’T CARE if you want to believe in the jesus godhead.
We care a lot that you want to MAKE us believe in it too.
The problem is not religion, it is proselytization.
Islam evolved to be immune to christian proselytization.
It doesnt do any good, so they shouldnt even try.
:)
the reason Franklin is so pissy, is that…
1. al-Islam just kicked americas fat white judeoxian ass in Iraq. and….
2. muslims can build mosques anywhere they like in America, but christians can’t build churches in Mecca and Medina and Karbala and Qom.
El Cid
@noncarborundum: I stated my point of view. My wording. I did note that your wording did not preclude it, but did not mention it.
Anne Laurie
@gwangung:
Heretic! We proud fundamentalist cherish the time-honored fill-in-the-blanks prejudices our sainted ancestors fought a never-ending rearguard action to defend! ! !
If it weren’t for hatred, half the human race would have no “tradition” whatsoever to enjoy.
El Cid
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m named after the poem, not the movie.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Cid: There was a poem?
/rube
Alwhite
@JGabriel:
Yes, the lucky sperm club members are the result of having a family produce you that gives you a leg up on others. If your granddaddy was a US senator and made a bundle dealing with the Nazi government and your daddy was a Congressman, head of the CIA and made a bundle being connected to the oil industry you are a member of the lucky sperm club no matter if you are a pointer or a setter in the john.
You are more likely to fail repeatedly with other peoples money, get a huge bailout from Texas and stumble into the Presidency.
arguingwithsignposts
@matoko_chan:
You know, if you don’t bother to understand *why* they are proselytizing, you should shut your fucking keyboard about whether they should try or not.
I don’t believe anything I believed when I was in seminary, but I know why they do it – because that’s what they *believe* is part of what is commanded of them.
So telling them to stop trying is like trying to tell a Muslim to stop praying five times a day.
morzer
@noncarborundum:
Not alien DNA? Didn’t she burst from the stomach of Ayn Rand in all her chittering, scuttling, alien glory?
Omnes Omnibus
@matoko_chan: My dear, I don’t want to make you believe anything. I doubt anyone on this blog wants to make you believe anything.
ellaesther
Oh, ok. If you’re going to twist my arm, I’ll post it again:
A small sample of the many, many Muslim statements categorically rejecting terrorism: http://emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.com/2010/08/06/muslim-responses-to-extremism/
Because you know who does know about Islam, Rev. Graham? Muslims.
Anne Laurie
@JGabriel:
Also, during the post-WWII period, a lot of kids were ‘confirmed’ at a ridiculously early age. I was 7-1/2, in the third grade, which was pretty typical at the time (early 1960s). I could rattle off the Nicean Creed and was delighted to pick out a extra pretty name to add to the list my parents had saddled me with, but even * I * knew I was no more prepared to “defend the Faith” than your average household pet. They’ve dropped that particular scam, mostly, but those of us in the Boomer demographic are still padding the rolls even when we dropped the whole charade at the earliest possible date.
Alwhite
@El Cid:
The movie was loosely based on a real person though so there is history there well beyond the movie. I assume the poem was based on the same guy(?)
morzer
@matoko_chan:
As contributions to interfaith dialog go, this one seems a little bit…. unhelpful?
asdf
The thing about “the seed” and all?
That was so fucking disgusting.
This shit has gone too far.
Cat Lady
@Anne Laurie:
Unfortunately the sting isn’t fatal.
ellaesther
Also, too: Via the comments on Nick Kristof’s excellent, excellent column from today’s NY Times (“Taking Bin-Laden’s Side“), the lyrics to a song I’d never heard before, written in 1943:
What is America to me?
A name, a map, or a flag I see;
A certain word, democracy.
What is America to me?
The house I live in,
A plot of earth, a street,
The grocer and the butcher,
Or the people that I meet;
The children in the playground,
The faces that I see,
All races and religions,
That’s America to me.
The place I work in,
The worker by my side,
The little town or city
Where my people lived and died.
The howdy and the handshake,
The air and feeling free,
And the right to speak my mind out,
That’s America to me.
El Cid
@Omnes Omnibus: El Cantar del Mio Cid.
Anne Laurie
@morzer: Low blood sugar. People who want to be this silly on the internet should be excused from Ramadan fasting, because they’re giving Islam a bad name to the non-believers.
Davis X. Machina
@Anne Laurie: Favorite joke.
A Jesuit, a Dominican and a Franciscan are walking in the Holy Land, and bickering over which order has done the most to promote the Lord’s work. The Jesuit and the Dominican are about to come to blows when the Franciscan, peacemaker in the spirit of St. Francis that he is, suggests that they all three ask for a sign, since He must be nearby, to resolve the question. So they fall to their knees in prayer, and ask. Suddenly there’s a clap of thunder and a blinding light in a clear sky, and a small scrap of parchment flutters to the ground.
The Dominican picks it up, and reads it out loud — it says (in Latin, of course) “Children, do not fight. You are all equally cherished in My sight. Signed, God, SJ.”
Joseph Nobles
Why is this person on my TV? Paging Russell Edgington…
ellaesther
@ellaesther:
That song, The House I Live In, as sung by Frank Sinatra: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lya8J653o-8&feature=related
The lesson that song teaches, as performed by Frank Sinatra in a short film by the same name: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lya8J653o-8&feature=related
Among the better lines from the short film:
“Look fellas, religion makes no difference, except maybe to a Nazi or somebody as stupid.”
and
“Use your good American heads. Don’t let anybody make suckers out of you”
I am going to continue to use my good American head and not let the GOP/neo-Confederate party make a sucker out of me.
Anne Laurie
@ellaesther:
Sinatra sang your song in the full version, but apparently YouTube took them down for copyright violations.
El Cid
@Alwhite: Sort of. Like most heroic poems, it appears to depart widely from the actual live of Ruy Diaz (Mio Cid, or El Cid, probably from the Arabic “sayyid” or lord / master).
The whole ‘mercenary working for a Moor’ doesn’t get played up much.
He didn’t die in battle and wasn’t sent out on his horse. As far as anyone can tell he died old, wealthy, and peacefully.
freelancer
@Davis X. Machina:
Not very many people will get that, but those that do are gut-laughing.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Cid: I was aware of it; snark fail, I guess.
El Cid
@Omnes Omnibus: Didn’t get it at all.
MikeJ
@ellaesther:
Wheee! I just got the Capitol Years box set, and it’s not even fully ripped yet. Now I have a reason to get back slaving over hot mp3s.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Cid: Not worth spending time over it.
Linda Featheringill
I contacted the retiring US Senators
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,_2010
[for the list]
to try to persuade them to speak up for religious tolerance even if where to put the community center is basically a NYC issue.
I contacted them because I hoped that they didn’t have anything to lose in the way of electoral support and so they might be brave.
It can’t hurt.
matoko_chan
@morzer: interfaith IS BULLSHYTT. i tell aziz that alla time.
christians believe they have a right to proselytize and muslims believe we have a right not to be proselytized.
besides, its useless. as long as christians insist on their right to proselytize us, there is no point.
the Prophet (SAW) immunized us against christian proselytization with parts of shariah law. it just makes fights.
im down with my homeslice Tariq, proselytization is disrespectful.
Christians don’t much like it when Dawkins proselytizes them.
Just say no.
@Anne Laurie: like i said, pagan, according to Puffy Buffoon, Atlas Jugs Humper and fake-islamic scholar Robert Spencer i have a license to kill you at least.
‘membah, you thot ‘the people of the book’ was a fundamentalist doctrine…..it is a liberal doctrine.
parsimon
@Calming Influence:
Calming Influence’s joke at 42 is teh funny.
arguingwithsignposts
@matoko_chan:
And again, you show your idiocy in all its flaming colors. Would you like to expound upon how the first century Christians believed they had a *right* to proselytize? Because as much history as I’ve read, they didn’t have any right whatsoever, shitforbrains, and were frequently killed as a result of their beliefs. They believed it was their duty, their calling, part of their religious praxis, just as much as Muslims believe they should pray to Mecca.
But hey, don’t let facts get in the way of your well-defined bullshit.
matoko_chan
we are immunized to xian proselytization..
so it just pisses us off.
they fucking hate it when Dawkins and the New Atheists do it to them.
i know why they do it.
and i don’t care…..its rude. its intellectual molestation.
matoko_chan
@arguingwithsignposts: right, duty, sacred obligation, who fucking cares?
its rude.
and they hate it when Dawkins and the New Atheists do it to them.
arguingwithsignposts
@matoko_chan:
Well, it can be rude without being intellectual molestation. You could just close the fucking door.
ellaesther
@Anne Laurie: It made me so happy, I can’t even tell you!
@MikeJ: and I am a very big fan of any man who says “Wheee!” Not enough of that about the place, frankly.
arguingwithsignposts
@matoko_chan:
And how do you have any fucking grounds upon which to decry the attacks on the near-ground-zero-community-center again?
Really, your callous disregard for the religious beliefs of others is pathetic. I guess I should expect no more from the Islamic equivalent of a glibertarian (I got my freedom of religion/speech, fuck you).
I’m out.
goatchowder
As my favorite agnostic, Robert Anton Wilson, put it:
“Aren’t all these religious arguments just people fighting over whose imaginary friend is better?”
El Cid
I really hate religions, to me the vast majority of them a bunch of superstitious nonsense based on discussions of magic people and invisible superheroes, but I try not to be too rude about it, unless someone wants to go on too much about how they’ve found the truth or whatever nonsense.
Frank
@Linda Featheringill:
Thanks for doing that.
It is really sad that we can’t depend on the courage of our elected officials. I look back at the Joe McCarthy era and wonder what would have happened if those elected had been more courageous early on. Now the same damn thing is happening again. Bigotry and outright hatred – and our elected officials on BOTH sides are cowardly quiet.
Dean tried to claim that this is not necessarily about bigotry. Then how the hell does he explain the opposition to mosques being built in KY, TN and CA? Or he is trying to say that they are also too close to Ground Zero?
matoko_chan
@arguingwithsignposts: awww…..did i hurt your fee fees? that is why interfaith dialog is fail.
christians cant stop proselytizing, and we cant be proselytized.
we are immune.
:)
get a clue, aws. yours is better for you, mine is better for me….no ones religion is ‘superior’ just ….LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE
arguingwithsignposts
@matoko_chan:
If you are immune, then why not just let them keep on with their fantasy-life, m_c? It’s all just talk, right. You’ll win out in the end if you’re truly immune, right?
You’re not immune. You seem to be afraid.
But hey, marketplace of ideas, truth winning out, I guess that’s just another western white bwana ideal, eh?
You get a clue, m_c.
ETA: “yours is better for you, mine is better for me….no ones religion is ‘superior’ just ….LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE” I now more fully understand the Dawkins paradigm than I ever did as a simple non-believer. Thank you, m_c, for showing me religious bigotry from another side. I guess.
ETA 2: “no ones religion is ‘superior’” flies in the face of centuries of recorded history, that. But you keep believing that everyone thinks so, m_c.
psychobroad
@Davis X. Machina:
I don’t get it, and I was raised Catholic. Is “God, SJ” some sort of inside Latin joke?
Omnes Omnibus
@psychobroad: S.J. stands for Society of Jesus (the Jesuits).
Cacti
Alert to New Yorkers of color:
Wearing any head gear that may be reasonably/unreasonably mistaken for a Kufi may be hazardous to your health.
Brachiator
@El Cid:
Wait a minute… He didn’t share a hot kiss with Sophia Loren?
@Alwhite:
There was a recent episode of the Skeptoid podcast that upset a lot of religious people, not just fundamentalists, that dealt with the question of who built the pyramids.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4191
I don’t think any religion is validated by the historical evidence.
parsimon
@psychobroad: I didn’t get it, and asked elsewhere: since “SJ” — or properly “S.J.” — is Society of Jesus, God is a Jesuit here. It’s an inside joke among Catholics, the argument going back ages. Apparently Jesuits have a reputation for snootiness. Who knew.
matoko_chan
@arguingwithsignposts: i am not a glibertarian. i am a sufi, and i subscribe to the doctrine of the heart (qalb) receptive to every form.
yours is better for you, mine is better is for me.
talking to me about christianity is like a talking dog trying to explain how running is better then driving.
and its rude….it is rude when Dawkins does it too.
i repeat, christians and jews were citizens in the Caliphate…there was freedom of religion….just not freedom of proselytization.
trust me, you have no good ideas for the marketplace– we absorbed them already….sacred texts, congregants, prophets, Adam to Moses to Issa…we all believe in Allah…..we got that covered.
all you have is the jesus godhead, and that is shirk for muslims (idolatry).
its fine if christians want to believe in the jesus godhead…we don’t. you have nothing for us. go away please.
Galileo
“And again, as a non-believer…”
It’s fun to sit on the sidelines and watch the ‘faithful’ concoct the next Holy War.
Too funny!
arguingwithsignposts
@matoko_chan:
Keep fucking that chicken, m_c. I am hating the very idea of a god/allah/g_d more every time you open your bigoted mouth and hit “submit.”
So, if you want people to view you as just as deluded and bigoted as the WECs you claim to hate, then keep it up. You’re doing a bang-up job.
psychobroad
to parsimon & Omnes: Thanks for the help, guys! My mother, who was a devout Catholic, and my uncle,who was educated by Jesuits, must be rolling in their graves like cement mixers.
matoko_chan
And Cole….my god is just the right size for me…..he is no bigger or smaller than aws’ god is for him. He is the same god! :)
the way one becomes a muslim is simply to say the shahada.
matoko_chan
@arguingwithsignposts: im not bigoted. we believe in the same Allah, brother.
it you who insists that we do not.
i just do not wish to be proselytized.
its rude.
PurpleGirl
arguingwithsignposts: The way matoko_chan uses “immunize” reminds of that famous line “you keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.”
I decided tonight to avoid dealing with m_c directly and, therefore, stay calm and relaxed.
matoko_chan
Srsly…all you guys…….is that too much to ask?
just not to be proselytized?
parsimon
@arguingwithsignposts:
This is not my fight, but would you cut this out? Walk away from the computer for a few minutes.
morzer
@matoko_chan:
I wouldn’t presume to tell you, of all people, about bullshit. I will, however, tell you that without interfaith dialog we aren’t going to have a prayer of coming out of the wretched mess that we, as a species, have made of this planet. If you really want to see an all-out religious war, keep peddling the idea that interfaith dialog is fakery, and that Islam, Judaism and Christianity can’t talk to each other. I used to think you were just a rather young and immature person, someone who talked nonsense to big herself up, but meant no harm. I am beginning to seriously question whether that was an overgenerous assessment after some of the things you have said tonight.
When do you plan to try living that doctrine? Judging from your increasingly hateful posts on religion, I don’t see much sign that it means anything to you.
matoko_chan
@PurpleGirl: i am using it in the EGT sense…..Islam is a CSS that evolved a counter-strategy to christian proselytization.
:)
matoko_chan
@morzer: im just asking to not be proselytized. is it too much?
im saying interfaith dialog can’t work until christians relinquish their right/duty/obligation to proselytize.
thass all.
:)
PurpleGirl
@matoko_chan: Please spell out EGT and CSS. I’m not a mind-reader.
matoko_chan
@morzer:
how exactly am i hateful? i just dont want to be proselytized, and it wont work anyways.
interfaith dialog could work, if christians drop the proselytization. we are immune to the christ part though…. sura iklas that i quoted above prevents us accepting the jesus godhead…..
morzer
@matoko_chan:
Most Christians I know, coming from a family that has two bishops in my father’s generation, not to mention a whole riot squad of cousins who are pastors/vicars, don’t see proselytizing as a duty not to mention a “right”. As far as I can see, the person proselytizing on this thread is you, with your talk about how Christianity has nothing to offer, and Islam has it all. Frankly, I don’t care which sect you follow. Worship the Spaghetti Monster or The Devil in Prada if that works for you. Just stop hating on other people and agitating for mutual intolerance. And before you start saying that only Christians proselytize, historically there have been plenty of Muslim conquerors who offered cities and peoples the choice between conversion to Islam, surrender and second-class status as dhimmis, and wholesale slaughter if they resisted. As far as I can see, all religions have those who try and win converts, all religions have their bigots and murderers, and all of them fail to live up to what they advertised on the cover of the tin. Regardless of this sad state of affairs, I much prefer dialog and peacemaking to provocation and ultimately war. Just stop with the belligerence, stop with the victimhood, and start talking and building bridges. I really don’t think you have to fear an attack of fanatical proselytizers on Balloon Juice, although I suppose the Tunchianites might sometimes be a bit over-zealous in worshipping the majestic icon of their particular patron deity.
Omnes Omnibus
@matoko_chan: Who the fuck is proselytizing you here?
Anne Laurie
@matoko_chan:
Because killing people who don’t agree with you is soooo liberal. Logic FAIL, babygirl.
arguingwithsignposts
@matoko_chan:
Um, no, because I don’t believe in any supernatural space genie atm. And I ain’t proselytizing anyone. I’ll leave it at that.
General Stuck
@Omnes Omnibus: That struck me as well. On a blog full of atheists no less.
Anne Laurie
@El Cid:
As an animist, I believe that proslytizing is the moral equivalent of bestiality… or at least speaking in favor of bestiality. People have the right to believe that having sex with horses is a good idea, but I think it’s disrespectful of the poor horses’ autonomy, and I just do not want to listen to anyone go on and on about that particular lifestyle choice, y’know?
matoko_chan
@Anne Laurie: i didnt say that was a valid exegisis of what the Prophet said to the Quraysh…..i said that what is what conservitards and teabagger bigots believe is in the Qur’an about killing pagans/infidels.
admit it, even the liberal elite don’t know shit about al-Islam.
:)
morzer
@Anne Laurie:
It might be worse. I’ve known Mac enthusiasts go on by the hour about why theirs was the one true way…
ellaesther
@Anne Laurie: I don’t know why this didn’t occur to me before and why it did just now — really, truly: No idea — but: Hey! You embedded that video for me! Because I couldn’t! Thank you very much. You are a good and kind blogger! (And sorry it took me an hour and 20 minutes to figure that out!)
matoko_chan
@morzer: i am not proselytizing.
it is forbidden for sufis to proselytize.
i am explaining why proselytization doesn’t work.
you are deliberately misunderstanding me.
i SAID interfaith dialog cannot work as long as christians insist on proselytizing.
AGAIN….what is so wrong for asking the extreme courtesy of christians not to give a shit about what i believe?
i don’t give a shit about what they believe.
arguingwithsignposts
also, every time I see “CSS” I think Cascading Style Sheets.
and @morzer, we Maclims may have to kill you for that heresy!
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@ellaesther: Forgot to use the new username, though apparently Hal has opened the pod door to allow it out…. Fingers crossed this works!
matoko_chan
@Omnes Omnibus: no one. im just explaining why it couldn’t work anyways, and why it didnt work in Iraq, and why it isn’t working in Af-Pak.
we are immune.
so it just pisses us off when they try.
:)
PurpleGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: This thread, along with one the other night where s/he kept saying the same things had me thinking the same as you. (Who the fuck is proselytizing you here?) Thank you for saying it.
General Struck: That struck me as well. On a blog full of atheists no less. Thank you for this also.
kdaug
You can tell me what happens to us after we die when your dead. Until then, keep your stories about pearly gates, fiery pits, and 70-odd virgins to yourself.
morzer
@matoko_chan:
I am not so sure your fecal tolerance is quite the same as genuine dialog, but next time anyone suggests we need a new way forward I shall be sure to mention the “I don’t give a shit about what you believe” strategy. I imagine that, coupled with the equally optimistic “Fuck off and die” strategy, it might bring peace to all the world after about a century and a couple of nuclear wars. Cemeteries are, after all, rather peaceful and tolerant places.
matoko_chan
@kdaug:
no i cant. the sirr is forbidden to non-sufis. see how that works?
if the Real intends you to find tasawuff He will put it in your path.
preaching is for those other guys. Ax Dawkins or Franklin Grahaeme.
morzer
@arguingwithsignposts:
The Jobsian Inquisition has been after me for years. Still and all, Dagobah really quite nice at this season is…
El Cid
@kdaug: They weren’t virgins. They were white raisins.
soonergrunt
It really is something to see this matoko_chan telling you guys over and over and over again how much she loves pie.
Apparently she loves pie and resents you guys liking cake or wanting her to try cake or something. I gather there’s an issue like that because you blockquote things that must be coming from her but since all I see from her are multiple posts saying “I really like boysenberry pie” and it seems to be pissing you guys off, I have to gather that you guys are all cake eaters or some of you don’t eat dessert at all, and you’re tired of hearing her claiming that her pie is superior to your cake and then denying that she said that and saying that you are trying to get her to eat the cake but she and the pie eaters have some kind of pie magic or some shit.
Honestly, since I figured out that she’s dumber than a bag of hammers and I pie filtered her, the site is much more enjoyable. Even the people with whom I disagree seem to be more intelligent than before.
Also it’s funnier than shit watching her say “I really like boysenberry pie” over and over again and you guys coming unglued at her about her fondness for fruit-filled dessert pastries.
kdaug
@matoko_chan: So you won’t be able to tell me what it’s like once you’re dead?
Funny how that works.
morzer
@soonergrunt:
I am glad you like cheesecake, Sooner. I find it very reassuring when someone shares my heresies. j/k
El Cid
@soonergrunt: My religion is still debating the holiness of pie, but tarts, macaroons, crumbles, shortcakes, cobblers and the like have already been cleared by the Nicotean Council.
Svensker
@matoko_chan:
Kind of like insisting there will be no peace process until the other side agrees to all the preconditions. You a relative of Netanyahu’s?
matoko_chan
@morzer: look…im telling you how interfaith dialog could work.
drop the proselytization, it dont work anyways.
take it or leave it.
muslims didnt start this fight….america did.
propping dicators like Saddam and the Shah, Operation Ajax, fucking missionaries and colonialists and the warpimps fighting fucking tabletop proxy wargames with the sovs…..you deserve what ever you get out of this, retards.
Josie
@soonergrunt: What is this pie filter you speak of? I want one.
morzer
@matoko_chan:
Boysenberry still? How about strawberry or key lime for a change? Broaden thy horizons, lass!
morzer
@Josie:
http://ok-cleek.com/blogs/?p=2149
From the Book of Armaments…
El Cid
You know what’s awesome? A Kahlua cheesecake.
Suffern ACE
@morzer: That, as well as the “Just admit it, Islam kicked your ass” message ought to pretty much put us beyond the Swiss Minaret ban quite quickly.
It may be true, a lot of this current outrage is a reflection of the failure to acknowledge that both the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (which used to be the good war) is what is hurling us on a course to scapegoat rather than just get over it and move on and agree that we will never do that again. But I don’t know if the “kick ass” part is going to work.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@soonergrunt: Hey! How the hell am I supposed to be properly pissed that the weekend is almost over when you write shit like that?
“Boysenberry” alone cracks me up.
Now cut it out. I’m trying to brood over my career.
benintn
It may have been noted already, but Franklin Graham has never been to seminary.
matoko_chan
@Svensker: false equivalence. all im asking is not to be proselytized, because it doesnt work anyways.
im not asking to keep suveillance in the westbank, demilitarize palestine, and keep building fucking settlements.
morzer
@El Cid:
Are you proselytizing? And if so, do I get a free slice?
morzer
@Suffern ACE:
I got banned from a Swiss bar once.. does that count?
El Cid
NYT says Pakistan doesn’t want Afghanistan (I mean, Kabul) negotiating with any of the Talibans.
Everything is always about India with Pakistan. Sometimes sensibly. Sometimes not.
parsimon
I suspect motoko_chan is being misrepresented at this point. Review his/her original remark up at comment 74:
This is a generalized statement about Americans. It doesn’t apply to everyone here, but it does seem to be relevant to US attitudes toward Islam overall these days, so I find it a fair sentiment.
soonergrunt
@morzer: I fricking love cheesecake.
I’m just not sure that it exists right now, and sometimes I doubt it’s existence outright.
General Stuck
This thread needs a soothing photo.
matoko_chan
just say it then….. if that is what you all believe.
their god is bigger than my god so they get to proselytize me.
freedom of religion my fine white ass.
Josie
@morzer: Thanks for the link. I’m afraid that is above my pay grade in computer usage, but it looks like a really useful item, especially for the particularly repetitive posts.
El Cid
@morzer: I am not proselytizing. I am aiming at glycolisizing.
soonergrunt
@El Cid: I’m all for that, but I love a good steak, too. I don’t know what the term is for the guy who believes that all food traditions can teach something while not really believing in any of them specifically.
morzer
@soonergrunt:
Well, I feel fairly sure that the Cheesecake Factory near me still exists, and has kahlua cheesecake. If you feel essential rations running low, give me a yell and we’ll see what can be done about emergency re-supply. It’s not boysenberry pie, but then, what is?
El Cid
@soonergrunt: The enjoyment of a cheesecake is an impossible conundrum. If we have it, but do not eat it, we do not taste it. If we eat it, then we do not have it. Thus the Heisenberg cheesecakery principle, in that no one can simultaneously taste a cheesecake without disturbing its position at the same time.
morzer
@Josie:
Just follow the instructions that come with the Holy Handgrenache.. I mean Grenade of Antioch, and you’ll find a lovely feeling of peace spreading through you and your blogging experience. There is one potential side-effect: some users have experienced odd cravings for boysenberry pie….
suzanne
@matoko_chan:
If it makes you feel better, I’m Christian, and I don’t give a flying fuck about you.
I’d call for the interfaith dialogue to commence, but that would entail talking to you. And that already kind of sucks.
morzer
@soonergrunt:
A gastronomically pragmatic omnivore?
morzer
@El Cid:
The soft bigotry of low blood sugar levels?
matoko_chan
@parsimon: ima grrl. chan is the honorific for young lady in context.
matoko is a tribute to the Major.
matoko_chan
@suzanne:
jazakallahu khair! thank you so much. :)
Josie
@morzer: Mmmmm……pie
El Cid
@soonergrunt: Think not that I am come to destroy the ribeye, or the filet: I am not come to destroy, but to eat my fill.
apocalipstick
@arguingwithsignposts:
Did Franklin Graham even attend/graduate from seminary or is his biggest qualification being Billy’s son?
suzanne
@matoko_chan: Thrilled to do my part to further religious tolerance.
Lysana
@matoko_chan:
Then I suggest you shut up before you convince someone that Park51’s a bad idea. You’re making Imam Rauf look bad by association.
matoko_chan
@morzer: what is interfaith dialog supposed to accomplish anyways? you just want to bitch about Bin Laden and the hirgabi and scold us about how we should ‘reform’ al-Islam.
You summoned the demons and built the reavers……you deal with them.
some of us think they have a point.
Mickey7
I think fundamentalist Evangelical seminaries are probably a lot like fundamentalist Evangelical law schools (think Michele Bachmann)–not really interested in providing broad education but in providing narrowly-focused indoctrination based on a very specific, if not very reasonable, interpretation of scripture. Franklin Graham also seems to suffer from daddy syndrome. He seems determined to get out from under his father’s shadow and to make his own mark in the world–by being an outrageous idiot to get himself in the news.
soonergrunt
@morzer: You know, that could work.
@suzanne: That’s the problem. You can’t not give a shit about some people because as long as they have your ear they won’t let you not give a shit about them. It’s almost like proselytizing, actually because they won’t shut the fuck up until you either block them, kill them, or give up and convert to their belief system (in which case you’re in for a LOT more of the same.) Usually, they do this in the context of whining about how they are being oppressed.
Funny how the pattern never changes, just the details of the topic.
I’m going to let her in on a little secret. Hey, MC! People here don’t dislike you because you are a Muslim.
People here dislike you because you are a CENK.
Clueless
Eternal
Newbie
Kook
It’s not your religion, sweetie. It’s just you.
matoko_chan
@suzanne: ‘zactly! :)
PanAmerican
They will beat this drum for the next two years… and then get saddled with Mitt as nominee.
morzer
@matoko_chan:
No, I don’t think boysenberry works for me, but thanks for the offer.
morzer
@Josie:
I sense the start of something sweet and crumbly between us….
Scamp Dog
@Brachiator: When reading discussions about the workers who built the pyramids, I recall learning about an inscription from the tomb of a pyramid-crew overseer, who boasted that he had never hit a man hard enough to knock him down.
This tells you that (1) he was hitting workers, and (2) other overseers WERE hitting workers hard enough to knock them down. Hmmm, I hope the good pay, housing, etc, was good enough to justify this treatment.
Then again, employee-employer relations weren’t the same 3000 or so years ago, weren’t they?
morzer
@Scamp Dog:
He was just in de Nile.. (sorry, obligatory Egyptian pun for the night)
El Cid
@Scamp Dog: I’m thinking OSHA regulations weren’t seriously enforced back then.
matoko_chan
@Lysana: You’re making Imam Rauf look bad by association. Faisal Rauf and his wife Daisy Khan are sufis too. how does asking not to be proselytized make him look bad?
we agree on this…..dont you?
isnt that true?
soonergrunt
@El Cid: And yay did Golden Corral decree the $9.99 All You Can Eat Buffet and Yay, the faithful did offer hosannas unto the heavens!
parsimon
Wow, what a fucking trainwreck this is.
morzer
@soonergrunt:
Damn it, it’s midnight and you are making me seriously hungry. This will not stand, man! First I had a boysenberry proselytizer. I got over that by force of will alone – and now you start in with your pagan Golden Calves.. I mean Corrals…
suzanne
@soonergrunt:
Bingo. You, sir, are absolutely correct.
I myself am oppressed by matoko_chan’s insistence on writing like a strung-out eighth grader who cuts in the bathroom and thinks that Trent Reznor is The Only One Who Will Ever Really Understand.
kdaug
@soonergrunt: Don’t you proselytize me, Grunt!
Look, y’all can believe what ever you want. And if it means there’s more pulled-pork BBQ sandwiches left over for me, all the better.
Brachiator
With stuff like this, who needs WikiLeaks? You would think that the Pakistani authorities would spend more time dealing with the awful floods in the area instead of continuing to play regional power games. But it’s noteworthy to see how openly this reporting describes how Pakistan plays the US in pursuing its own interests in the region.
It’s hard to tell whether the Obama administration is as clueless as Dubya or if they have a better grasp of how unreliable the Pakistan government is, and how it is pointless to try to deal with them as honest brokers.
I understand some of Pakistan’s obsession with India, but it is futile.
There is an ad in the current issue of The Economist commemorating the re-opening of the Taj Mahal Palace Hotel in Mumbai, which had been one of the targets of a terrorist attack, which some suspect had the backing of Pakistan’s security service.
Lots of smiling employees, balloons, and a sign noting, “We’re Back!” The optimism and resilience on display is a suitable enough FU to Pakistan.
morzer
@Brachiator:
I don’t think any sensible person trusts Zardari. He’s been thoroughly corrupt and shameless for far too long.
matoko_chan
@suzanne: lawl…..i do lurve meh some NIN– i played his ARG (alternative reality game) you got something right for once…..
but im not emo….im scene.
do you know the difference?
emos cut themselves….the scene cut others.
:)
soonergrunt
@suzanne: Is that what all the pie talk is about? So boysenberry is Trent Reznor? If it was Strawberry-Rhubarb, would that mean Sascha Konietzko from KFMDFM?
The first time I read something she wrote I thought “what, is this person speed-balling? What the fuck WAS that?!”
For you younger ones, Speed-balling
freelancer (itouch)
@freelancer:
Wow, this thread is exactly why I wrote what I wrote above. We all need to be more patient, and less malicious. We also need to acknowledge certain realities as factual. Certain facts as incontrovertible.
Among these, Dawkins engages in interfaith dialogues. Questioning should not be confused with proselytizing, ever.
Brachiator
@Scamp Dog:
The pyramid workers could probably have done with some union representation.
matoko_chan
@soonergrunt: you mean KMFDM? industrial is dead. that was the band the columbine killers favored as i recall. im a sonny grrl….FFTL forevah!
suzanne
@soonergrunt: I have no idea what the hell is going on with all this pie discussion. All I know is that it’s cruel to tease a pregnant chick by talking about pie without actually giving her some. Sigh.
First time I read anything she wrote, I was reminded of this. The resemblance is uncanny.
morzer
@suzanne:
That does sound rather Matoko-esque.
matoko_chan
/yawn
fiamanullah juicers
may He who Pastures the Stars protect us all.
:)
suzanne
@morzer: Right?!?! Seriously. Bai Ling will play her in the Balloon Juice movie.
Brachiator
@morzer:
Zadari may be on shaky ground. The current issue of The Economist, in noting Zadari’s boorish reaction to flooding in his country, makes the following observation.
A link to the article here: http://www.economist.com/node/16846380
On the other hand, I have not seen much of anything from any Western reporter which offers clues as to who else might be vying for power in Pakistan. There are references to generals and to Pakistan’s intelligence service, but rarely to any specific individuals.
soonergrunt
@suzanne: The pie references are in reference to the following:
Matoko_Chan’s comments get replaced in my browser with the phrase “I really like boysenberry pie”. It hasn’t changed the quality of her posts much that I can tell.
morzer
@suzanne:
I can’t wait to see Tunch in a tuxedo, sneering from the shadows.
morzer
@soonergrunt:
I am thinking of replacing the pie phrase for Matoko with:
“Iä! Shub-Niggurath! The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young!”
It just feels more like her, somehow.
suzanne
@soonergrunt: LMMFAO. That’s full of more win than an actual pie.
I myself rather like reading her drivel. For me, they’re the verbal equivalent of fart jokes, which, because I am really a 14-year-old boy at heart, amuse me far more than I should admit.
suzanne
@morzer: Finish it up with “BULLSHYTT…..lawl!!!” and you’d be spot on.
soonergrunt
@suzanne: Complete it with a phrase like “I don’t have any experience with the subject at hand, but I read a flyer about it, so I’m OK!
:)”
Xenos
@matoko_chan:
Yes.
Therein the dilemma.
In any case, most people fussing about the Threat of Islam know absolutely nothing about the religion. Check the ‘sane’ conservative websites. They are full of people convinced the Saudis are funding Rauf. Saudis subsidizing Sufis engaged in the integration of Muslims into American culture? If hat were the case it would be some seriously good news. It would be a serious indication that we were winning the “War on Terror”.
asiangrrlMN
@suzanne: Nope. She’s white. She just wishes she were Asian. Bwahahahahahahaha!
@Josie: MikeJ also adapted it for Chrome, and it works beautiful. Only problem is, I get awfully hungry in these threads.
@General Stuck: That is very soothing, as was the picture of cutie-pie Charlie in the other thread.
I’m with Cole on watching the pissing contest in bewildered bemusement. WTF?
suzanne
@asiangrrlMN: Oh, I don’t really care about her race at all. She reminds me of Bai Ling because they’re both batshit insane, illiterate, and have shitty fashion sense. I suppose Courtney Love could play her in the movie if Bai Ling is busy getting high or naked.
asiangrrlMN
@suzanne: Ha! I get it. I actually see m_c as very young, so that would leave both of them out. Victoria Jackson? Not young, but the same kind of mentality.
P.S. I just like to twit her on the whole Asian are soooo intelligent thing.
Anne Laurie
@El Cid:
As someone whose grandparents emigrated from Connemara, I am soooo grateful nobody sold the IRA nuclear weapons. And even more grateful that America never gave England permission to use the ones we’d… helped them acquire.
Anne Laurie
Don’t know how many of you reading this are anime watchers, but I know some of us were geeks, at least during our college years. There is a cringe-inducingly accurate and quite funny anime series called Genshiken, (roughly “Group for the Study of Visual Culture”) about a bunch of otaku (fanboys) so un-earnest that they can’t quite fit in with the serious, constructivegoal-orientedotaku study groups at their equivalent-of-a-Midwestern-cow-college university. Even though it’s set in modern Tokyo, I recognize all the characters from my time 30-plus years ago as a member of the Star Trek Club… and the SF Society… and the Tolkien Fellowship (which eventually morphed into a venue for the early D&D gamers)… and the Society for Creative Anachronism (Barony of the Northwoods).
One of the Genshiken characters is a scrawny, defensive little virgin from the sticks named Oguie. She’s got a broken arm when she’s first introduced, because she threw herself out a second-story window to demonstrate just how much she hates and loathes and despises all otaku, of which she is NOT one, except that she’s fascinated with drawing fanzines… soft-core gay pretty-boy porn fanzines… a fascination she does NOT share willingly with her new Genshiken clubmates.
Matoko-chan is Balloon Juice’s Oguie.
Yutsano
@Anne Laurie: My dear madam, please provide an address so your brand new Internets that you have just won can be shipped to you.
morzer
@Anne Laurie:
I don’t know if “fanboys” quite catches what Japanese otaku are. It’s true that otaku do obsess over certain topics or forms of technology, but generally the paradigm Japanese otaku is massively anti-social, lives alone, hates leaving the house unless driven by an inner compulsion, survives on delivery food (especially pizza), and prefers the company of his computer to that of human beings. In fact, you could call them sociopathically inclined, massively isolated geeks. It’s true that there is a radically softened understanding of otaku in the American anime market, but for Japanese people otaku tends to have a very strongly negative connotation. I’ve seen American students inform a Japanese instructor that they are otaku, to be greeted with a look of polite revulsion. I suspect that the irony in Genshiken is that the only real otaku is the person who most vehemently denies being one.
soonergrunt
@morzer: lol
soonergrunt
@El Cid: WIN
Comrade Darkness
Totally late to this party, but I think this: My God is Bigger Than Your God drastically oversimplifies.
In reality it’s: My God hates you more than he hates me
LiberalTarian
If you really believe in an infinite God, at the electron and cosmic level, none of these theological or prophetical arguments are meaningful. We are a part of the cosmos, part of a living entity, like living cells are part of our body. Some things make sense–treating others as we want to be treated, loving our enemies and making peace with them, sheltering the homeless, comforting the sick, feeding the hungry, giving alms to the poor.
But, most people don’t actually believe in an infinite God–they try to hem in the power of infinity by ritual and dogma, much like the ancient Sumerians and Assyrians. Didn’t work for them, won’t work for the Xians, Muslims, Jews, Zorastrians, Hindus, whatsoever deal you try to make. Jesus did have at least one thing right: the kingdom of heaven is yours. But, it takes work and care, forgiveness, kind thinking.
Most people just can’t get there from where they are, and wish on falling stars instead. It’s too bad. They are afraid of death, and so ruin life.