The press secretary dismissed the “professional left” in terms very similar to those used by their opponents on the ideological right, saying, “They will be satisfied when we have Canadian healthcare and we’ve eliminated the Pentagon. That’s not reality.”
Of those who complain that Obama caved to centrists on issues such as healthcare reform, Gibbs said: “They wouldn’t be satisfied if Dennis Kucinich was president.”
You wouldn’t be satisfied if I gave you an open thread full of unicorns, ponies and stardust, so all you’re getting is a regular open thread.
Update: Forgot to mention that this is via Glenn Greenwald who is in a bit of swivet on Twitter this morning.
Nick
Haha nice!
Glenn Greenwald is in a tizzy this morning!
and no, Gibbs isn’t wrong
Guster
@Nick: Yeah! Canadian healthcare, what a crock! Ha ha!
Nick
@Guster: He didn’t say it sucked, it said he wasn’t realistic…it’s not.
TR
@Nick:
Nope, he’s right.
Hell, if we had Canadian style health care, the far left would be grousing that it’s not as good as the English one.
harlana
Oh, I did not need to see this this morning.
That’s gratitude for you. At least Republicans pretend to love their base.
harlana
Oh yes, the horrible, horrible Left. Throughout history, opposition and agitation never accomplished anything.
OhSuzanna
I thought Gibbs was terrific during the campaign, but he’s not, in my humble view, “shining” in his role as Press Sec.
TR
@harlana:
Republicans pretend to love their base because their base actually supports their elected officials.
We Democrats, meanwhile, have a habit of doing nothing but bitching endlessly about what the people we elect accomplish in office — even when, as in the past two years, they accomplish an incredible amount — which then hampers their ability to do more, which only leads to more bitching.
You want gratitude from Democratic politicians? Do something that warrants it.
Nick
@harlana:
This is gonna hurt, but it has to be done.
You…are…not…the…base
Guster
@Nick: Actually, he said we won’t be satisfied until we have Canadian healthcare–like that’s a bad thing. Because people who are not satisfied with the limits of the current political reality are dirty fucking hippies; which I think the administration very much believes.
And he said we want to eliminate the Pentagon, which is true. But only after we enforce mandatory abortions and interracial gay marriage.
debit
I feel for the WH getting shit from both the left and the right, but at the same time alienating people who could otherwise rally your base just before a mid-term seems stupid.
tBoy
I’ll just take my vote & financial support and move along.
Napoleon
Hey Gibbs, speaking of being practical how is that water down half assed stimulus bill working out for the midterm reelection prospects? Good thing you didn’t listen to flaming liberals like Krugman.
And when we have the next financial crisis as a result of the POS financial reform bill Gibbs will be the first to say “nobody could have foreseen it.”
Frank
@harlana:
And at least the Republican base are a tad more politically rational and loyal than the Democratic base.
Hell, when you have people on the left calling to primary our most liberal senator for not voting against health care reform, it is beyond insane.
Could you imagine FoxNews (if they had been around) calling to primary Ronald Reagan because he didn’t go far enough with lowering tax rates? Never. That’s the difference.
cmorenc
John:
You CAN give away an infinite number of unicorns to anyone who wants one, because they don’t exist. As the math-savvy know zero times infinity = zero (a rather handy property of zero), and so giving away as many free unicorns as you wish is an effortless, cost-free gesture. So you might as well be generous rather than stingy about this unicorn-giveaway thing.
OTOH you need to be careful about what you promise in the way of free ponies, since they do exist.
TR
@tBoy:
Awesome. President Palin thanks you for your help!
Anya
@harlana: I don’t think the firebaggers are Obama’s base. His base still loves him.
El Cid
@TR: I’m pretty insanely left, and I don’t see me saying that.
Now, sosullizing the means of production, hmmm…
beltane
Ah, the sweet sound of hippie punching in the morning. And I haven’t even had a cup of coffee yet.
While I am hardly a firebagger, I do wonder why the left gets mocked for not accepting that Americans must endure eternity with the most expensive, inefficient and inhumane heal care system on the planet. Does the Constitution say that American workers are required to always get the short end of the stick?
Guster
@TR:
Grousing = agitating for progress. (And it’s the French system I’d grouse for, I think.)
I hope we all grouse as grousingly as possible when trying to improve our country.
4tehlulz
@tBoy: Like you wouldn’t do that anyway.
MikeJ
@harlana: Republicans pretend to love their base but don’t actually do anything for them. Democrats pass useful legislation and shit on the base.
I’ll put up with some political theatre if it gets good policy.
Comrade Javamanphil
@TR:
..because their elected officials don’t make it a habit to punch the base every opportunity they get. It’s a bit of a mobius strip now, isn’t it?
harlana
So the people who dedicated time, money and energy to get Obama elected, even if he was not perhaps their ideal choice, have no right to say anything about anything.
Mmrriight.
Holy fuck! Over the last fucking 8 years I had to listen to Dems say that Republicans had “valid” points about some of the total bullshit that has helped destroy this country. At the very least, Gibbs could have said we have some “valid” points about something instead of dismissing concerns of the left with the same ridiculous stereotypes that Republican use. How very constructive, how very helpful.
Frank
@Napoleon:
Please tell us how Krugman would have gotten the votes to get a bigger stimulus bill passed in the senate. Good luck with that because Krugman never did.
It’s easy for people like him to jabber when they don’t have to deal with blue dog Dems anda unified Republican party dead set against our Democratic President.
El Cid
Why is it up to me to either be or not be “Obama’s base”? Is this some sort of requirement of the citizenry?
And does this presumed responsibility extend beyond, say, voting, election time volunteering and/or donating, to simple expressions of thoughts, particularly anonymously, on frigging blogs?
Punchy
Does Canadian healthcare include Canadian bacon? If so……I’m SO down with it.
mistermix
@TR: No, I’m a rational Obot. I will advocate for Canadian-style healthcare, but I will be satisfied with the centrist compromise: dollar coins, a FCC mandate for Hockey Night in America and the USDA forcing McDonald’s to serve poutine.
debit
@Punchy: Mmmm, bacon.
Guster
@Frank:
You must’ve missed the op-ed making the rounds a few weeks ago, in which a conservative, in the first year of the Reagan administration, blasted Reagan for being a weak-kneed liberal. Which proved that progressive critics of Obama are idiots. Of course, if there had been no conservative criticism of Reagan, that would’ve also proved that progressive critics of Obama are idiots.
It’s kinda neat how that works.
norbizness
Perhaps the dire jobs situation can be alleviated with a Strawman Eradication Corps.
In any event, for a party that relies on voter turnout, he’s certainly pretty fucking stupid.
Munira
Unfortunately, he’s right. The “left” wouldn’t be satisfied even if Kucinich was president because he’d have to deal with the same jerks in congress and the same lame media. It would be interesting to see how long it took for them to eat him alive.
Guster
@Frank:
Step One: Try.
Edit: Nobody demands or expects victory in the fight against an intractable and irrational foe. They just expect the fight.
Anya
@debit: I don’t think sirota, hamsher, GG, et al will motivate anyone, nor are they particularly connected to the base. They are not the BASE! They are a very narrow part of the Dem coalition. The base is with Obama.
Nick
@debit:
Look at the previous thread…a handful of commenters likening Elizabeth warren’s imminent nomination to “kabuki.” Do you think any of them will rally to her cause? or sit back and wait for the “sell out?”
At this point, the WH has stopped trying to please the 10% of liberals who will never be happy. I actually don’t agree with the first thing Gibbs said, they still wouldn’t be happy if we had Canadian healthcare and got rid of the Pentagon, they’d nitpick on how we got there or what we did to get there.
Frank
@Comrade Javamanphil:
I take it you never listened to right-wing pundits over the previous eight years…They weren’t exactly happy with Bush.
But the difference between the right-wing base and the left-wing base is that the right-wingers know who their enemy is. The Democratic base, on the other hand, take their ball and just go home. And eventually we have Palin as President.
TR
@Comrade Javamanphil:
Both sides give as good as they get, but I’m not sure we’re in a Mobius situation. The Firebagger crowd has been raining fire down on the White House from its first days in office — hell, even before that — and it’s only now, eighteen months into the administration, that the White House is firing back.
Personally, I’d love a Canadian style health care system (though I’m fine with keeping the Pentagon around for a while). But I recognize that we live in a country in which that was not going to happen in the current political climate, and the best route was going to be to start with this version and — as with past expansions of Social Security, Medicare, etc. — build on that progressive change incrementally.
I’m a liberal, but I’m also a realist.
Frank
@Guster:
He did. He barely got 60 votes as it was. Hell, this was before Franken even was in the senate. He more than tried.
Nick
@Guster:
Ah, yes, let’s try to force Republicans into voting for a $1 trillion bill as the economy collapses, I’m sure they’ll go right along with it. Look how we called their bluff on the 9/11 bill. They wouldn’t possibly vote against THAT?
Oh wait.
Harry Kawasaki
@tBoy: To where?
You can either have 40-60% of something or 100% of nothing.
Grow up.
Guster
@Munira: If only Kucinich ever ran in a presidential primary, I guess we’d have rational basis from which to extrapolate the irrational left’s undoubtedly-overwhelming support of Kucinich. But because that’s never happened, all I can say is, they’re all longhaired freaks in love with a Keebler elf!
TR
@mistermix:
I’m with you on the first two (as long as they keep Don Cherry out of the booth), but I want Swiss Chalet instead of poutine.
TaosJohn
@TR
You want gratitude from Democratic politicians? Do something that warrants it.
That is the most astonishing thing I’ve read in a long time. And here all I thought I had to do was VOTE for the suckers.
debit
@Anya: I get that, but Obama isn’t on the ticket in the mid-terms. I am seriously worried that liberal voter apathy is going to mean Speaker Oompa Loompa for the next two years. That’ll be two years of nothing getting done, two years of fake scandals and hearings and it will end in a one term Obama presidency. That’s my fear.
mr. whipple
What Gibbs says is true.
I don’t know many ‘base’ voters that spend 16 hours a day posting on blogs, bitching, bitching, bitching.
Comrade Javamanphil
@Guster: Step 2: Turn to a popular, eloquent speaker to make the case on the TV time and time again. If only we knew such a person…
harlana
Wow, so the Republican base is more rational that the Democratic base?? I assumed from all the many posts about Teabaggers on this site that it was general knowledge amongst readers that they do indeed exist.
Go on with your Left-hatefest. I have to get back to my re-training and trying to find a fucking job.
cintibud
I wish we’d get away from the term “Hippie Punching” since, as an aging hippie, I really dislike being lumped in with Firebaggers, most of whom probably weren’t around during the flower power days or where the ones we gave extra bong hits to when they started ranting too much.
Nick
@debit:
And you’re probably right to be afraid of that, but kissing Jane Hamsher and Glenn Greenwald’s ass wouldn’t help…especially because polls have shown that Democratic enthusiasm is actually historically quite high, what’s hurting them is that EVERY FUCKING REPUBLICAN IN THE COUNTRY is voting this year and Indys have bled their way.
Guster
@Frank: He tried for a stimulus of sufficient size? Link?
Comrade Javamanphil
@Frank:
They turned on Bush after the public did. It was never about principal, always about power. When they wind shifted, they did to. Until then, they were happy to prop up Little President Fauntleroy.
Nick
@Comrade Javamanphil:
Where on TV? Before or after the 45 minute Sarah Palin thinks we nee tax cuts segment?
Lolis
@TR:
I agree. If people like to shit all over the president they shouldn’t expect a bouquet of roses back.
Napoleon
@Frank:
Huh? The Republican base just dumped one of their most conservative Senators in Utah a few weeks ago. What are you talking about.
TR
@harlana:
No, quite the opposite. The Republican base is stupider than the Democratic one, but they get the essential element of elections — it’s my team versus their team, and winning is the only thing that matters.
They approach politics like it’s the NFL. We approach politics like it’s the Algonquin Roundtable.
Guster
@Comrade Javamanphil: That’s just crazy talk! The Senate would filibuster Obama’s charisma. Also:
1) Obama pushed hard for the best option every time, in secret.
2) The Unitary Legislative is the only branch of government that matters.
3) Jane Hamsher.
Frank
@Guster:
You are claiming he never tried for a stimulus of bigger size? Link please.
Admiral_Komack
@mr. whipple:
That’s because they’re not fake-ass-progressives.
Nick
@Comrade Javamanphil:
True, but even before that, they were not thrilled with him. They were just thrilled Al Gore wasn’t President.
One of my very Republican friends told me on Election Night 2004 after cheering Bush through his victory that Bush wasn’t even conservative and his policies were terrible for conservatives and I asked him why he was excited for him and he said “Because compared to the Democrats, I’m thrilled to have someone who at least recognizing our agenda, even if he doesn’t enact it or it gets gutted”
General Stuck
This is good news for McCain, and Hillary!!
Frank
@Napoleon:
“One of their most conservative Senators” This is just not the case.
Bennett was considered a RINO among the right-wingers. Surely you are not suggesting Bernie Sanders is a DINO?
Nick
@Napoleon:
IN UTAH
And in the meantime, you don’t see a real serious threat to RINO Mike Castle or Mary Bono Mack, do you? They still like Scott Brown just fine.
They can get a teabagger elected in Utah and South Carolina, they can’t in Delaware, they know that. The Democratic base, on the other hands, tries to get a labor candidate elected in the most anti-labor state in the country, instead of getting around a perfectly good candidate in North Carolina.
The Republican base would never dump Pat Toomey for Christine O’Donnell
kay
Robert Gibbs is terrible at his job. He fights all the wrong battles, and he can’t shut up.
He’s all ego.
What possible purpose did this serve, other than venting his personal frustration? Disinterested non-base voters aren’t going to hear it, and if they do they’re not going to give a shit, liberals are going to be furious, and conservatives are going to seize on it. Who is he talking to?
Why doesn’t he stop making excuses and figure out how to talk to people? Is it really a productive use of his time to bitch about liberals?
Sarcasm is a hostile posture, it’s not a persuasive approach, and he relies on it constantly. I was tired of how ungenerous and snarky and juvenile he is after 2 months.
There’s a Democratic base. Liberals are part of it. He has to deal effectively with that. How is slamming segments of the base in any way, shape or form part of his job description? I’m not impressed with how he does his actual job. Maybe he should focus on that, and stop showing us all how clever he is.
rptrcub
So what’s so bad about Canada?
Napoleon
@Frank:
How do you know the votes were not there when not only did the administration not even try, but the Bob Rubin Democrats running economic policy didn’t even present what Christina R. had prepared on the biggest stimulis package that may be needed to Obama.
If pragmatism is fucking up your response so bad because you are afraid to ask someone for something, thereby sealing your political defeat, I want no part of it. That does not sound pragmatic in my book.
taterstick
Gibbs is right.
Of course, Glenn “Perpetual State of Arrogant Disdain” Greenwald will be here any moment to tell us why we are Obamabots and mindless denizens of the BJ borg and Obama is a traitor.
Phoebe
I do not understand this mentality.
I want all kinds of things and know I’m not going to get them. This was the first time the guy I voted for won [except Clinton in 96] and that includes every primary, and I’ve been voting since 1983.
I want all drugs, not just pot, to be legalized, prostitution too. I want cars to be rationed. I want mandatory vasectomies, reversible at 35, for all males at the age of 16. You don’t see me expecting any of this. I don’t even expect rational education reform [just more stupid shit like NCLB]. Will I keep voting? Of course. And contributing, and registering voters, and whatever the hell else I can do. Do I know there is a chasm of difference between Obama and Palin? OF COURSE.
Look, I wanted a typewriter for my birthday all growing up, and I was happy with bubble bath and a nerf ball. Cheer up, kids! Make your own fun.
Seriously, if we get Elizabeth Warren, that’s a typewriter, pony, and chemistry set.
Nick
@kay: Pretty sure he was just answering a question.
However, I think he’s pretty job at his job. He often skewers Republicans from the podium, and does a great job at it, but it often goes ignored by the media and the “professional left” because they’re too busy trying to find the new sellout
Bill E Pilgrim
Well I’ve heard ad naseum about how “tough” this administration but I’ve never seen much evidence of it – nice to know that they actually can be, as long as it’s toward their own party.
Nice that is in an ironic, exasperating, resigned sort of way.
Steve LaBonne
@ Napoleon:
This should simply be reposted as often as necessary until the Pollyannas get it.
soonergrunt
@debit:
And who the hell, pray, are these people? I haven’t seen any such.
General Stuck
A Bottlefly is just a Bottlefly, whether you swat it or not.
edit – and Gibbs is doing fine at his job
kay
@taterstick:
If Robert Gibbs wants to know why Obama doesn’t get more credit, he has only to look to the WH communications team.
That’s the only part of this he can control.
Weirdly, instead of doing that, he focuses on FOX News, or liberal pundits, or anything but his own work.
What, exactly, is he? A media critic? An impartial observer of the political landscape? Has he ever, once, taken responsibility for anything?
norbizness
Well, I for one am glad that Gibbs identified the largest problem in this country, and in such a way that couldn’t possibly improve his party’s mid-term chances. Perhaps he’ll go after flag-burners next.
soonergrunt
@mistermix:
What the fuck is poutine? It sounds unmerkhin.
Napoleon
@Frank:
The score of his voting record was one of the most conservative. If they considered him a RINO it was in the face of the facts, something conservatives do all the time.
.
Anya
@debit: I think the wingers are more motivated than the liberals, simply because of their irrational haters of Obama. THis election will follow the historical trend of the governing party losing seats. When you add the terrible economy to the mix, for sure, we will lose seats. But the Dems will likely retain control of both the House and the Senate but with a very small majority. The thing is, Obama is not in the ballot, so you will not have a big turnout of AA and youth, as a result some of the seats that came with his wave will be lost.
Finally, I think fair minded (and realistic) progressives would recognize that this president, with all of his shortcomings, is the most progressive president since LBJ. We should give him and Nancy Smash credit for what they accomplished, instead of belittling it. I am not saying you’re doing that, but the constant whining from the firebaggers is demoralizing.
General Stuck
@Anya: This. absolutely This!!
soonergrunt
@Munira: It would be interesting for about three months, cause that’s how long it would take.
Frank
@Napoleon:
Scores of voting records are not a good measure. Heck, by this measure Joe Lieberman is more loyal Democrat than Dennis Kucinich.
Bill E Pilgrim
@norbizness: Quite the contrary. It’s called hippie-punching, a term coined to mean a specific kind of lashing out nastily and visibly at the left, in a calculated effort to gain points with the right. (I add the little definition because some people here seem to repeat the expression literally, i.e. as if Atrios or Digby actually see themselves as “hippies”)
The White House has obviously calculated at this point that they’re going to gain more votes by moving to the right, since they’ve pretty much pissed off the lefty base enough to have dampened turnout there, so/and, they’re wooing independents and Republicans instead.
I’m not saying it’s a good calculation or bad, I think it’s a fool’s errand actually for the most part, but that’s definitely what they’re doing. There’s simply no way you say something like that because you got a little emotional and slipped.
tim
oooh…a new word for me: “Swivet.” I like that.
mai naem
Haven’t liked Gibbs since he worked for Dick Gephardt and went after Dean during the 04 primary. He came across as nasty piece of work. Yes, I have long memory. Also remember Arlen Specter during the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas dust-up. Also too, George Will’s involvement in the Carter/Reagan debate notes stealing stuff.
norbizness
Meanwhile, for perspective.
Svensker
@TR:
You mean working on their campaign and giving them money doesn’t do it? Apparently once the overlords have the job they don’t want any complaints from those who brung ’em.
Frank
@Napoleon:
How do you know they didn’t try? Surely you don’t think all the negotiations took place in public, do you?
If Obama was a dictator (which the left seems to think he is), he would have obviously gotten a much bigger stimulus bill passed. As it was, he had perhaps 50 Democrats that were on his side. He had to then negotiate with 10 people, Dems and Goopers to get it passed. It find it almost comical that Krugman writes his stuff while never ever talking about how to get it passed politically. Must be nice to live in a dream world.
Bill E Pilgrim
@mr. whipple:
Democratic party voter enthusiasm is way down, and if anyone thinks that’s composed entirely or even largely of progressive bloggers they’re not paying attention.
As you point out, most voters don’t pay that much attention.
But it’s across the board. And most of them don’t even read blogs. So the idea that only progressive bloggers are unhappy, or that they’re largely responsible for others being unhappy, is nonsense.
tomvox1
What Gibbs said is just a stupid thing to say out loud. It comes across as trying to pander to “centrists” and play the “adult” to all the Lefty children; as ungrateful and disrespectful of the good that the left of the party does to drive the discussion on needed social improvements in this country; and/or serves to reinforce the Right’s moronic talking points about the welfare state and those crazy libruls. Counterproductive on all fronts and dumb politically because it needlessly narrows the definition of “good/useful Democrat.”
Next time, Robbie, just think it to your own self-satisfied “reasonable moderate” smart ass self.
Hugin & Munin
Most of this criticism of the left comes from independents and part-time Dems. They get all worked up because they know, in their heart of hearts, that they will abandon the Democratic party long before firebaggers will.
homerhk
Kay, one thing I always liked about Obama and Gibbs in particular is that they were never afraid to speak their minds – whether it was politically wise or not. I think we’ve got separate the two. First, was what Gibbs said accurate and/or deserved? I for one will say hell yes! the amount that Obama and his administration have done for the liberal leaning side of the US population seems to be inversely proportional to the support they are getting from the professional left. Now, they are not doing that solely to get support but because they think it’s the right thing to do; but I can well understand the frustration they feel that liberals don’t seem to appreciate what it is they have achieved. To take a small example, I have seen many complaints from the Professional Left (TM) that Obama has reneged on his promise of transparency and the example given is that he didn’t conduct negotiations of the healthcare bill on C-Span; or some other occasion where an Obama meeting has been behind closed doors. But unfailingly they always forget to mention the unprecedented release of the white house visitor logs; and generally the unprecedented transparency of this administration. Similarly with the issue of lobbyist influence. The ban on lobbyists in this administration is unprecedented but somehow the complaints focussed on the very small number of people who were granted waivers.
Whether it was politically wise is a different matter because Gibbs should know that the liberal press is just as stupid and prone to poutrage as the MSM/right wing crew. Gibbs made a clear distinction between the professional left and the people who volunteered and voted for him – to wit: “Gibbs said the professional left is not representative of the progressives who organized, campaigned, raised money and ultimately voted for Obama.”
But that doesn’t stop the Professional Left from clutching pearls and claiming that Gibbs has basically repudiated everyone who volunteered for Obama.
calling all toasters
Translated Gibbs: Shut up about Elizabeth Warren already– we’re picking someone from Goldman Sachs!
Nick
@Bill E Pilgrim: Obama’s approval rating among Democrats and liberals is over 80%…Democratic enthusiasm is “down” among people who APPROVE of Obama and the things the Democrats have done. No one is really sure why, but firebaggers love to try to convince us its because of them, anything to make them feel relevant.
so, yes, only progressive bloggers are unhappy. Well them and teabaggers.
General Stuck
@Bill E Pilgrim: It’s not so much that dem enthusiasm is down, as gop enthusiasm is way up. This is historically true as Anya pointed out, as well as Nick. And the paradox is that winger enthusiasm goes up more, the more liberal things they hate get enacted. Nice try spinning it though.
Allison W.
GO Gibbs!!!! GO!!!
That was funny and he is spot on. Especially with the Dennis Kucinich comment.
Let this be a reminder folks that the WH knows what’s being said in the blogosphere.
TR
@ Svensker
Complain all you want, but just realize that if you vote for a candidate who runs on a moderate platform and wins, you’ll look a little silly complaining that he’s governing as a moderate.
Allison W.
@calling all toasters:
There are 2-3 other nominees that no one cares to talk about – which one is from Goldman Sachs?
tomvox1
BTW, wasn’t Kucinich publicly stating he would vote “Yes” on Health Care Reform (much to the chagrin of many his Lefty supporters) a pretty BFD at the time?
Way to pay the guy back, Gibbsey.
jdw
The point was that even if Kucinich was President, the professional left would be bitching.
I think that’s true.
Allison W.
@kay:
Oh no, not good enough excuse as to why their accomplishments are being ignored. They don’t go prancing around saying “look what I can do!”, but bloggers or the professional left can sure as heck find out what the WH is up to. There is the WH website and if you want an unbiased view there is politifact.org/com. I notice that when the admin does something that can’t be sliced, diced and criticized by the left, it barely gets reported by the left. Yet if any of these bloggers get a quote from an anonymous aide, its all over the internet in 2 seconds.
J.W. Hamner
@Bill E Pilgrim:
Right, but it’s unlikely that whatever pet issue get progressives fired up enough to post their thoughts on the internet is what’s responsible for this general unhappiness among democrats.
It’s the economy.
It’s not civil liberties, it’s not the public option, and it’s not that Obama wasn’t sufficiently “angry” or “take charge” on Wall Street or BP or whatever.
It’s unemployment at 9.5%.
So unless you’re Paul Krugman, it doesn’t seem like most progressives have very firm ground to stand on when they say “If only they’d listened to me!”
aimai
The “you are not the base” posters are full of crap. Obama *himself* is worried about losing his “base”–if by that we mean the voters that brought him in to power. And he’s right to. Jeezus christ must everything on this blog boil down to the important politics of personality? Go.To.A.Fucking.Fundraiser.For.The.Dems. I did. Pay a few thousand to see Obama. I did just a few months ago. They absolutely know they are alienating “their base” and pissing off the marginal voters who should be willing to turn out and vote democratic year after year. They know it because their local districts are full of those people who are pissed at Obama, or tired of the Dems playing defense, or just desperate because of the economy. The Democrats in power know if perfectly well. Its only the tinkerbell brigade on this blog who thinks that by attacking everyone to the left of Attila the Hun we can wish Obama into a better position of power.
Obama and the Dems *as a party* have one and only one job at this point: to stem the tide of (natural) midterm losses in order to stay in power in sufficient numbers to do some serious policy work. If they have to please leftist, or populist, or desperate, voters by giving them a fucking tongue bath it is not too much to ask. If Gibbs for once in his aggressive, short necked life had to be a little verbally conciliating to 1/2, or 1/3 or one tenth of a tiny percent of the democratic base he should do that. He should do that happilly. Because its good for business. He doesn’t have to lurve the base. He doesn’t have to really pledge to marry it for ever. He just has to please it for another fucking couple of months.
They could have bought the votes with a bigger stimulus–and yes, they could have tried. Ask for two trillion, settle for a trillion. That’s the way its done. Susan Collins and Mrs. Snowe White don’t give a fuck about the math. They just wanted to be seen to trim some fat. So give them more fat to trim.
Everyone knew that if the economy were allowed to go into free fall–if the consumer economy tanked–the Dems were toast. This is not the fault of the left for not being able to talk Obama’s real accomplishments up enough. Its the fault of the Democratic leadership for being unable to focus on what would get the people genuinely excited, and for being unable to market their own successes. Gibbs is, as usual, shooting the messenger (voters for their apathy) instead of doing what his god damned job is which is not pissing off the voters.
aimai
Allison W.
@tomvox1:
To say that the Left wouldn’t even appreciate Kucinich is a compliment to Kucinich. This guy is the left’s wet dream and the WH knows that. but they also know how the left is and even one of their heroes wouldn’t make them happy.
Bnut
Step 1- Win election
Step 2-Piss off hippies before mid terms
Step 3
Step 4- Profit
Bill E Pilgrim
@Nick:
Presidential approval rating and voter enthusiasm are two different things, and you’re equating them. Wrong.
People can answer “generally approve” or “mildly approve” of the job he’s doing and still be disappointed and not enthusiastic. And enthusiasm is tied directly to turnout.
In any case, making a big show of hating on “the left” is a desperation move to try to look better to voters on the right or the center-right, that’s guaranteed. Whether you’re right or I’m right about why Democrats are unhappy, or who knows why and who doesn’t, they at least see it, and are going for the other side instead. It’s cynical, hard-ball politics, which should surprise no one.
aimai
@Allison W.:
Oh for christsakes, which is it? The blogging left is all powerful or its meaningless? Here the “professional left” takes the hit for not being able to sell Obama’s program (ohmygod they stabbed him in the back) and there they are attacked for not having any readers and not mattering at all. Which is it? Its neither.
The job of the politicians is to do policy, govern, and get votes. The job of the voters is to club together, vote for the policy and government they want, and demand more of what they want. Obama and the dems can dance with the ones that brought them, or not. Its a straight up quid pro quo. You can argue that (some/imaginary/not important) vocal leftists aren’t being pragmatic in not supporting Obama in everything. But the same argument cuts back that Obama and his team are not being pragmatic in shoring up their critics on the left. Keep your friends close and your voters closer. Its actually fairly straightforward.
aimai
Bill E Pilgrim
@Allison W.:
Markos Moulitsas can’t stand Kucinich and has made no secret of this. Just to name one.
I do wish people would refrain from just slinging demonstrably false claims around. Leave that to the Wingnuts please.
General Stuck
@aimai:
Kinda black and white thinking there. They are not meaningless, but just have a voice like everyone else, except specializing in pointing out the negative all day everyday and inflating their importance and numbers among the dem base. And none of it positive. I suspect Gibbs was asked a question and spoke out of frustration, and prolly wished he hadn’t, but while the professional left is not meaningless, they are relatively few in number, though very loud.
Sheila
Though my vision for America is far more in tune with Dennis Kucinich’s than with most American politicians, I can guarantee that if Dennis Kucinich were President, he would have accomplished far less than President Obama. One might not like reality, but it’s all we have to work with, and if we want it to improve we must first recognize it.
Bill E Pilgrim
@J.W. Hamner:
Oh I agree entirely. I’m not saying that progressive bloggers and non-blogger Democrats are unenthusiastic for exactly the same reasons. In fact, bloggers are highly enthusiastic, I mean virtually all will vote, I’m certain. My point is that the White House, sensing that the only enthusiasm is on the right, is going there for votes.
What I’m arguing against is the claim that’s made often that progressive bloggers are bringing down Democratic enthusiasm by being petulant and demanding. Just a look at how many people do and don’t read these blogs compared to the Dem population is enough to debunk that.
However let me clear about what this means: The administration put into a power on a wave that included lots of people, but in no small part progressives, is now happy to turn and smear them just to show off to others and get their votes.
I don’t think anyone should be surprised, but that doesn’t mean the same thing as being disgusted.
BombIranForChrist
This is the most politically idiotic thing this administration has done to date. Some tight races will now swing to the Republicans.
homerhk
@aimai,
what about the people who ‘brung’ Obama and the administration who are not on the liberal left? the new voters, the independents and such? should he just pander to one part of his base? His base was stitched together with different and new parts of the population, so yes you went to an Obama fundraiser, yes you volunteered but I bet there were hundreds if not thousands more who did so but without necessarily having liberal ideology.
In any event, what I think Gibbs was getting at is that they HAVE done a lot that should have pleased their base; it’s just that the professional left is ultimately happiest when it’s complaining. I don’t disagree with that, as it happens.
Allison W.
@Bill E Pilgrim:
Wait, so Markos is the decider on the left? if he doesn’t like Kucinich then no one on the left does? Nothing false about my statement. Since I started following politics 2-3 years ago, the left has held up Kucinich like a saint.
Allison W.
@BombIranForChrist:
LOL!!! o-kay.
General Stuck
And here we are at Balloon Juice, listening to hundreds of complaints and opinions from and about left wing bloggers.
Whilst in another thread, it was announced that Obama will reduce by large percentages funding for. as well as actual defense contractors. Last check it had 10 comments. Therein lies the problem with the professional left. so to speak.
lol
@Bill E Pilgrim:
Democratic party voter enthusiasm is way down
Compared to what?
Given that the Professional Left is primarily made up of rich middle-aged white guys, it might have escaped their notice that the Democratic party is made up of several constituencies that have historically voted at much lower rates during the mid-terms.
There’s going to be a drop-off, drop-off is going to be larger than the drop-off amongst whites (Republican base) and given that Obama drove turnout amongst these constituencies to historical highs, the drop-off is going to be even more steep compared to 2008. This is the reality of Democratic politics unless you want to argue Obama has been retroactively disappointing Democrats for several years.
Obama’s approval with the base hasn’t dropped much compared to when he took office. Unfortuantely, that doesn’t mean they’re going to bother to vote.
Obama’s approval amongst independents has dropped a great deal and it’s not because of any Professional Left pet issue – “it’s the economy stupid” and that’s why Dems are going to get raped in the mid-terms.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Allison W.: I’d say “Kucinich is the Left’s wet dream” is pretty blanket, and worth calling out when one of the main players feels the opposite, yes.
No, I didn’t say that no one on the left does, and the walked back statement you make here seems more reasonable to me, no argument with that.
homerhk
@bill pilgrim.
Oh for Christ’s Sake Gibbs was not talking about the progressives “who organised, campaigned, raised money and ultimately voted for Obama”, he was talking about the Professional Left. You can be outraged on behalf of people who voted for Obama – that is your right – but that doesn’t make you right.
Allison W.
No one is asking you to sell his programs. We are asking for fairness when these professionals report what the WH is up to. You guys demand and demand and when he comes through you complain or ignore it. THAT’s the problem! Then this professional left goes on tv to mainstream voters and says the admin isn’t doing anything when the information is right there. THEN you have the right wing taking on the same talking points and using them against the president and you guys eat that shit up – “oh look Michael Steele is right” or Arianna will do one of her stupid “beyond left and right” posts.
Allison W.
@Bill E Pilgrim:
didn’t walk anything back. my comment still stands.
Bill E Pilgrim
@lol:
Compared to the Republicans.
And compared, to a lesser extent, to 2008, but that’s historically normal.
However there’s really no reason that any of what happened historically is carved in stone, as the high Republican levels prove.
I agree with this entirely.
General Stuck
Don’t nobody say nothin bad about Krugman today. My nerves can’t take it.
horatius
Also, HAMP was a total waste of money already appropriated which the Obama team could have used to actually make a difference like Atrios points out every other day, but they pissed it away, because their Goldman buttboys didn’t think it would put enough money in their pockets, if they did it right and actually helped make even the tiniest bit of difference for home-owners by doing principal modification. And now, Robert Gibbs goes off mouthing at his base using right-wing insults.
Insulting the base is fine. Just don’t use your enemy’s words to do it.
It’s that fucking simple.
Chad S
The difference between Hamsher and Krugman is that one is an honest critic who’ll give credit when credit is due and the other won’t. Gibbs, unfortunately, is 100% right(although I don’t think he was talking about Greenwald). The legislation they’ve passed have been massive steps towards progressivism and away from the failed Supply side economics that have dominated since 1981. If you were expecting Obama to be able to ram through far more progressive programs when he has to get the approval of about 8 blue dog Dems in the Senate, then you were expecting far too much imo.
Nick
@Bill E Pilgrim:
No, you’re equating them. You’re saying Democratic enthusiasm is low because Democrats are unhappy with the President. That’s not true, they’re not enthusiastic despite being happy with the President, which has nothing to do with the public option, or Elizabeth Warren, or Geithner, or no prosecutions of Dick Cheney and John Yoo, and everything to do with the fact that Democrats are just never that enthusiastic unless they’ve just been governed by Republicans for a decade.
Nick
@Bill E Pilgrim: Democrats have never done turnout as well as Republicans, because Democrats either don’t care, aren’t interested, are hopeless, or are what Gibbs pointed out, morons who want to destroy the country because they didn’t get their pony.
TuiMel
@Frank:
Not to worry because:
What a crock.
Gibbs comes across like a WATB. Why don’t they love us more? Well, dude, you guys made the decision to make your message hope and change. Pardon the rubes for having their own definition of those things you deliberately left undefined. What’s the point? I suppose he is trying to lure the real prize here: independent voters (as das base – in any incarnation – is insufficient to win). Perhaps these voters are buying right-wing memes that Obama is a soshulist, and they feel these folks can be re-assured otherwise. I hope to hell the strategy is successful.
Lots of criticism was visited on the “the professional left,” whatever the hell that is, for using right-wing talking points against the president. Now it looks like Gibbs can play that game, too. He could have made his point about what Obama has delivered without sinking to this, but apparently he felt the need to drive it all home by painting all those who wanted more from their Democratic leaders with the most extreme stereotypes. In fact, a member of the professional left, Rachel Maddow, did this very thing effectively for him a few weeks ago. But, he felt the need to tar everyone as fringe lunatics. Cute, but it doesn’t animate my loyalty, and I am decidedly NOT irrational. This seems like a self-inflicted wound, and that is the stuff that drives me crazy.
Bobby Thomson
@TR:
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
Is continually seeking progress really so wrong?
kay
@Nick:
He’s horrible. He sounds petty and childish when he “skewers” and he was the mastermind behind the 6 MONTHS they wasted bitching incessantly about FOX News. I told you at the time it was a stupid battle, and it was. How do they “win” that? What does “winning” that even look like? WHY was Gibbs fighting it?
He is incapable of producing a simple answer to a simple question. He sounds like he’s lying even when he’s not, because he WON’T ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION.
That he answered this question so completely is a measure of his enormous ego, not professionalism.
He sucks at the job, so his response to every critic is to fire back like a high school sophomore. He’s defensive and hostile. He has one trick, and I tired of it 2 months in.
Nick, would you feel the same if Gibbs had gotten up and trashed another part of the Democratic base? Really. Is he a fucking idiot?
Bobby Thomson
@aimai: This.
TuiMel
@kay:
I’m with you on this.
El Cid
@General Stuck: I actually had that same impression, though I got it from seeing Gates’ proposal. I didn’t know why it wasn’t receiving more prominence, though I’m sure most here will have a quick explanation.
Though I think it’s also realistic to praise the sentiment and wait for reality to follow.
On the other hand, I think this may be followed the same way Clinton got blamed for “hollowing out the military” for post-Soviet collapse, Bush Sr. era proposals to close out unnecessary bases, programs, and the like.
General Stuck
@El Cid: You know, it is possible to celebrate the announcement and intent, and also keep an eye on what really happens. Pols, good pols, usually don’t announce stuff like this and leave themselves open to to later breaking promises charges. I think Obama is a good pol and Gates a fairly straight shooter, but that’s just me I guess.
And the wingnuts are always going to do what wingnuts do. And that is paint dems weak on defense. Obama is risking that ridicule, just as he is with announcing a withdrawal date for Afghanistan. There is some courage in these things, seems to me. But we always keep an eye out for the actual follow through and criticize when it doesn’t happen.
kay
@TuiMel:
I knew he had a huge ego when I found out he’s always late. That should have been the tip-off for whoever hires in that joint.
Assembling 40 people and then making them wait is just stupid and counter-productive. They’re hostile before he walks in the door. But, it’s ego. He has to show them who’s important here.
You know, Bill Clinton got away with that because he was, um, THE PRESIDENT. Robert Gibbs is not.
It’ll get worse, not better. There’s no cure for an ego that big.
kay
@aimai:
Amen.
General Stuck
@kay: I just hope I never get in your doghouse.;)
Ramiah Ariya
@mistermix:
Just sent this via email to John and DougJ:
The margin issue is a Javascript error caused by your linking to http://change.org’s petition.
The exact error is in
http://www.change.org/widget_flash/PetitionScroller/change_embed.js
If you block change.org using IE’s security setting, the site margins work.
That js file has a function check_align that is calling the function flashMovie.setAlign. flashMovie is probably null – because (I think) it has not been loaded yet into the DOM.
It does not seem to have anything to do with WordPress.
tomvox1
@jdw:
@Allison W.:
No, Gibbs’ point is that “they” on the Progressive Left wouldn’t even be satisfied with a crackpot hippy single-payer soshulist UFO-believer like Kucinich. Therefore they on the Left never have any right to complain about Obama because they only complain for the sake of complaining and not for any legitimate policy disagreements, see? Oh and BTW, Kucinich is a dirty fucking hippy against whose radical thinking Obama acts as a steadfast bulwark for real Americans. That is Gibbs’ real point and it’s no compliment to anyone.
Apnea
“Can you see it, fellow Obamabaggers? A messenger!!!
Shoot it! Shoot it down! Fire at will !!!”
Robert Gibbs
Jayackroyd
actually, Glenn is in full bore, long form swivet at Salon.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/index.html
Lisa
I just don’t care anymore. I fucking hate our base. Also, I hate the opposition. I really just hate this country.
CalD
It’s obviously pretty rare to see a political spokesweasel just blurt out uncalibrated, unvarnished truth like that. Guessing this remark hasn’t gone over well on the professional Left.
CalD
@Nick: Thank you.
PS: So there.
kay
@General Stuck:
I never liked Gibbs, Stuck, as you know. I feel as if I was right about him. His whole approach gets on my nerves. Ultimately, it’s arrogant, and that makes me think he lacks confidence, and that makes me wonder why he lacks confidence. Because…he’s out of his league?
Sarcasm and snark don’t wear well, in the real world.
Why doesn’t he try something radically different and refreshing?
1. Treat people decently
2, Stick to his job, and look to his own work if the President isn’t getting enough credit, and take responsibility.
Peter
Gibbs’ statement was boneheaded, but correct. He’s speaking of the ‘professional left’, meaning Jane Hamsher et al. Those people really aren’t ever going to be happy, because their schtick is being unhappy.
They aren’t really concerned with improving things, they just want to make some cash and raise their images by being the Voice Of Dissent. They set long-term goals as short-term goals, and then bitch and moan when they aren’t reached. If by miracle they did receive everything they say they want in one fell swoop, they’d just shift the goal posts a little further down and resume complaining.
However, it’s boneheaded because it’s really easy to skim over, ignore, or misunderstand the ‘professional’ part of the statement, and thus conflate the people he’s directing that comment to with everyone left of center. And even if they figure out what he actually meant later, that emotional response that their initial reaction created isn’t easily dispelled.
Considering that Gibbs’ entire job is doing this sort of thing properly, this really isn’t an excusable mistake on his part.