My sister sends along this picture of her cat and dog (a mastiff) “playing”:
BTW- time to get some training for Lily. She is becoming very aggressive to dogs on our property, and earlier this evening shot out and tried to attack my neighbor’s mastiff and another big dog. Her rough was up and it took me about thirty seconds to get her under control, and I even hit her for the first time. I really need to get this behavior stopped.
I’m off to relax.
Comrade Kevin
Yes, indeed, that cat is “playing”. Heh.
db
Glad to hear you are on it. If you don’t nip that aggressive behavior early, it can become nearly impossible to stop later on.
Annie
Was this just before the mastiff ate her/him?
QuaintIrene
“That nose is mine! Meoowrr!”
bemused
Oh no…a head cold, testy blog comments & now petite Lily decides to be a guard dog. She must think she needs to be protective of you sensing you are feeling out of sorts. Pets are the best even when they drive you crazy.
mai naem
Poor Beau Biden’s got some bad medical genes. A stroke at 41 and his dad having the aneurysm years ago. Joe Biden’s not exactly had a great year. His mom passes away and now his son has a stroke.
mr. whipple
That is a very cool pic.
rknight44
Damn, missed the bird pr0n down page. Congrats on the birdies. They’re a lot of fun. Again, good job.
Just Some Fuckhead
John, use a shock collar and a muzzle. I don’t know what to tell ya to do about the dog though.
plaindave
If the cat weren’t playing the mastiff would be losing an eye.
Unless declawed, of course.
Mike Kay
digya hear, Tiger woods had to pull out because of a bulging dick.
http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/tigerwoods/2010/05/10/2010-05-10_faux_pas_hits_tiger_in_pants_reporters_onair_gaffe_suggests_golfers_injury_is_fa.html
Annie
Ms. Sarah has a new book coming out in the fall entitled “America By Heart: Reflections on Family, Faith, and Flag. It will include selections from classic and contemporary readings that have moved her.
When asked to name specific authors, she stated: “All of them.”
Ekim
It’s ruff not rough. From an old school teacher.
Derek
Yeah, you gotta get those instincts of Lily’s under control before they become a problem. Speaking from experience, here. Socialize that dog!
Keith G
Maybe you can send Lily after Sully.
Check out the training offered at your local Petsmart. The course of group lessons are very reasonable and the group will give Lily exposure to a wide range of other dogs.
The quality of their training depends on the individual trainers. I would recommend dropping by and watching a few of them in action.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
Charlie just had his bath
Always an adventure
Warren Terra
@Annie:
What, she couldn’t be bothered to get someone to ghostwrite a book for her again (or didn’t want to spend the time getting interviewed by the ghostwriter), so she hired someone to edit an anthology of other peoples’ writings instead?
Ben JB
My dog Blackie and I just started obedience school at the Anti Cruelty Society here in Chicago; we’ve only been once, but I already wish we had started this in December, when we got her, because it’s a lot of fun to teach her new tricks. I can’t wait till we get to “leave it.”
slag
I’ve been reading a book called Animals Make Us Human by Catherine Johnson, and it’s helping me understand positive reinforcement training much better. The friend who lent it to me trains dogs using only this technique, and I’ve been fairly skeptical.
But lately, when the cats misbehave, I’ve stopped shaking the coin can or getting out the squirt bottle and have instead reached for the treat container. It stops the behavior just as well as the punishments did, but instead of making them afraid, it gets them excited about the prospect of treats. And since they still have to work for their treats every time (twirl, sit up, etc), it really just changes the nature of our interaction from a negative one–fear and frustration–to a positive one–expectation and satisfaction.
Still tweaking things since a couple of times one of my cats has misbehaved and then looked over at me seeming to expect treats. And that behavior will not stand. So, sometimes, I’ll just say the cat’s name sternly rather than offering either punishment or reward. It actually seems to work and it never used to before.
Just sayin.
BrianD
My dog is very aggressive toward those 20-foot-tall dancing windsocks with faces and arms they put out in front of tire shops.
EdTheRed
I shall call him “Mini Tunch”.
Annie
@Warren Terra:
Or maybe she just went to the children’s section at Borders…
MikeJ
@Warren Terra: Wasn’t that what her interview show was too, just a collection of interviews other people had done?
Coming next month, “Now That’s What I Call Palin!”
stuckinred
It’s always good to check out Cesar and the Monks of New Skete for these behavioral issues. Dogs want a need a pack leader and that is you.
Warren Terra
@MikeJ:
Yes, exactly. Clearly it’s a model she thinks works for her.
stuckinred
Case study on aggression by Cesar.
Linda Featheringill
Comment from al.com:
Posted by BamaDF
May 11, 2010, 11:03AM
I especially like the part that says that oil spills are propaganda from the liberal media.
I hope you are right, Brother Man, but I don’t think so.
[And I always enjoy death threats directed at the really left wing folks. ]
Seeley
A few months ago when John opened up the thread for flogging of stuff, someone recommended his wife’s book “Monkey Portraits”. Don’t recall who that was, but wanted to mention to him that I gave it to my mother-in-law for Mother’s Day and she loved it!
MikeJ
@Linda Featheringill: I call spoof. A real winger wouldn’t admit that oil is made of dinosaurs because it would take millions of years to convert plants and animals to oil and everybody knows the world is only 6,000 years old.
Mike Kay
I understand Gordon Brown is home watching the DVDs rahm gave him.
WereBear
@Linda Featheringill: Dear heavens. That is truly staggering.
I adore Positive Discipline, or whatever they are calling it lately. Trained all my dogs that way… cats train me that way…
Also, Lily might be ramping up her behavior in the new place because it’s a new place. Good training will help. For both man and dog.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Fxd.
Christ, George Reker’s luggage handler has more shame.
bey
Tinabutt and I had a great time at the PetSmart classes. It was clicker training and positive reinforcement which she just loved. Make sure you tell the trainer Lily has started some overprotective behaviors with other dogs and he/she will focus on those socialization skills in the class.
“Leave it” is big fun and I had occasion to use it shortly after our class ended when I knocked over a wine glass in the kitchen. One Leave It! and Tina ran to the other side of the kitchen and dropped into a Down while I cleaned up. Speaking of Down, that was the hardest thing for her to learn. It took nearly 3 weeks of diligent effort before she figured it out, since the way you teach it is to take a treat to the floor and reward when the elbows touch the ground. Tina’s nose is only about 6″ above the floor as it is and she was deeply confused by the process. Now it’s her favorite command. I say Down and she throws herself onto the floor with wild abandon, wagging like crazy.
It slays me every time.
Linda Featheringill
@MikeJ: I forgot that the world is only 6000 years old. Silly me.
Salt and freshly ground black people
@Linda Featheringill: Has to be snark.
jeffreyw
Mrs J’s peanut butter flower plantings had an unfortunate side effect.
Bill
John,
This “becoming very aggressive to dogs on our property, and earlier this evening shot out and tried to attack my neighbor’s mastiff and another big dog.” behaviour is not like Lily as you have described her before now.
Please tell her that I do not approve.
Problem solved?
Didn’t think so.
Please tell her that I still love your site, you, and her.
So there.
Annie
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
Well done……..
burnspbesq
I have a solution for all the aggro on this site.
Everybody has to listen to the new Mary Chapin Carpenter record once a day.
Now, understand, I am a big fan, and the new record is very good. But man oh man, it is the musical equivalent of camomile tea. Sooooooothingzzzz.
Litlebritdifrnt
@slag: My cats learned by watching. In the morning I let the boxers out then I put Cueball up the stairs until Lucky is allowed to go out. Lucky then gets a treat, (snausages) and then after I let Cueball down from the stairs (by removing the baby gate) they get treats (snausages) the kittehs decided that this treat thing should include them, so now I do the entire thing with the dogs as posted and THEN have to feed every cat in the house treats, Cause the cats decided that if the goggies are getting treats then the kittehs should too. I am a slave to my animals.
Lisa K.
@Linda Featheringill:
That almost sounds like a plant. Even teabaggers aren’t stupid enough to think there is any living thing that likes to drink oil.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
A Denny Crane moment for the Maverick
This was almost your president/
HumboldtBlue
For a minute there I thought I heard the echo of Bill Cosby in “Fatherhood” when he describes bath or bedtime … LET THE BEATINGS BEGIN!
My parents laughed and laughed and laughed at that shit.
AnnaN
Definitely look for training through your local humane society. Ours is simply wonderful (www.boulderhumane.org). Their Grumpy Growler class is awesome and emphatically uses positive reinforcement to alter behavior.
Hitting/Swatting won’t work. Dogs have a behavioral code that dictates how certain actions are tolerated and dealt with. Lily is protecting her home and you. It is what dogs do. A glare from Lily that is ignored by the intruder will then require an escalation of responses until the threat is dealt with; a glare will turn into a threatening posture -> growl -> bark -> head/shoulder butt -> snapping -> biting.
She needs to start seeing strange dogs on your property as a good thing. Get a clicker and some high value treat. Baby food in small jars works wonders – just let her lick out of the jar. It’s self contained and akin to doggie crack. Click and treat her every.single.time. she notices a strange dog outside your place.
And, please don’t listen to the Dog Whisperer or use punishment to alter her behavior. The American Veterinary Society of America actually has position papers DISCOURAGING these methods. (http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf)
I am sorry that you have had this run-in with the neighboring dogs. Something like this is very stressful and can make you fearful about what would happen in a worst case scenario. If you pursue some good training resources, even working on it alone, you should see some good results. All you need is consistency.
Good luck John.
mr. whipple
@Lisa K.:
I thought birds drank oil to make their feathers waterproof.
Mnemosyne
@slag:
I’ve gotten positive reinforcement to work in several instances with our cats. It used to be that Charlotte would come charging over to interrupt whenever I would pet Annie, so I started vocally praising Charlotte while I was petting Annie. Now Charlotte stays put until Annie and I are done, and then I make a big fuss over Charlotte being a good girl.
I also managed to train her to bring me stray balls of yarn that she finds rather than running off with them. Again, it was giving her extravagant praise when she brought them to me (like a dead bird) that really worked.
Mnemosyne
In other news, I got assigned to a jury, so now I get to be on jury duty every afternoon until the case wraps. Yay. The sucky part is that I’m an alternate, so I have to sit through the whole thing but don’t get to actually make a decision (unless one of the regular jurors drops out).
freelancer (itouch)
Allison Janney on LOST!
Calming Influence
Two words: Dog Whisperer. For all the money spent on it, “obedience training” for dogs has a dismally low success rate. By turning her “training” over to someone else you’re demonstrating that you’re not her pack leader. Watch full episodes here, watch them on NatGeo (channel 109 in WV), or get them through NetFlix. No yelling, no HITTING, it’s simply the way to let Lilly know what you expect of her.
The reason I believe in this is because my brother-in-law (RIP) knew dogs the same way Cesar does, and saw him use the same techniques 20 years to raise 2 of the most obedient, well-mannered, and loyal dogs I’ve ever seen seen.
“Obedience training” may work to stop this particular behavior; what are you going to do when the next problem shows up?
taylormattd
You gonna do one of those long obedience boarding school things? I have a feeling I would be too much of a softy to let my pet be away from me for too long.
stuckinred
@Calming Influence: Me too.
Ecks
One vote for dog whisperer, one vote against. What a bipolar crowd we are today.
someguy
Register Lilly as a Republican.
Then she’ll have no problems taking your orders.
She’ll be too dumb to eat and to refrain from shitting in the house, but otherwise it’ll be a big help.
Oh yeah, just watch out on the attacking thing if you do that. She won’t attack the pitbulls after that, but random neighbors? Could be a problem.
Anne Laurie
Cole, if your sister hasn’t already seen A Rose for Pinkerton, you obviously need to buy her a copy immediately.
As for your problem: Sound like Lily is discovering her Inner Hall Monitor — getting officious about “right behavior in her balliwick” because she expects you (King of the WORLD! ! !) to back her up. It’s not unexpected for a small, submissive dog with a history of neglect/abuse who’s now “the favorite” of a physically big, assertive human. Complicating factors are your enormous new kingdom, and probably spending too much time with Ginny & Guisley, the JRT terrier-ists. She is simultaneously thrilled with her new social status, and terrified that she won’t be able to live up to the glory of it all. “Alpha dog” training, like the Dog Whisperer, is not really the best choice for submissive dogs like Lily, because it will reinforce her theory that Big & Mean Rules Over All, but not improve her self-confidence.
Positive reinforcement training is the way for you two to go — clicker training is especially excellent for smart but insecure dogs like Lily. She’s obviously ready for a group obedience class, but you can work with her alone if there’s not a positive-only group available. If Lily is anything like our Sydney (and the stories you’ve told over the past 11 months sound like they’re soulmates), she will be thrilled to discover that she can “do stuff” and get praise (treats) for her accomplishments. Some dogs, like some people, just light up for that elusive joy of learning. They love to be the Dog That Knows Stuff, to have the mad skillz to perform in a way that gets them positive results, even if it’s as simple a ritual as “helping” her God-King John Cole stay on schedule by reminding you when it’s time to get up, time to go out, time to turn off the glare-box and get ready for bed. Your goal as Trainer is to help her find ways to channel her Knowing Stuff rather than retreating behind her fears & insecurities.
I suspect it will not take much effort to teach Lily the basic commands (sit, down, stay, watch me, leave it) and once the two of you have a basis for instant communication, you can demand that she SIT and STAY and WATCH when you spot trouble coming. The root idea is that you want to re-train her (and yourself) so that her automatic reaction to a new & potentially complicated situation — like the neighbor’s mastiff approaching your territory — is to look at you & wait for orders, rather than trying to make her own decisions. You’ve been through basic, so you already have the drilled-in body knowledge that just knowing the rules and observing the chain of command can make you confident in dangerous & unpredictable situations. Lily needs a much lighter hand in her ‘basic camp’ than you did, but then, you started with a much harsher temperament than your little girl!
slag
@Mnemosyne: Awesome! It’s so cool when you can teach them stuff like that because it makes life so much easier.
Praise definitely works on mine too. But a clicker and treats help. Although we haven’t gotten one of them to “go for a walk” quite yet. He makes it half way around the kitchen island and turns around and stares. But if we circumvent the island at the other end, treat in hand, he’ll eventually make it around to us by himself. He definitely finds it to be an imposition, though. So much so that, after he gets his “go for a walk” treat, he always jumps up on a stool and does all his subsequent tricks from there just so he won’t have to go for a walk again.
The Truffle
Question: can we definitely say for sure that Charles Johnson over at LGF has left the right?
Montysano
@Linda Featheringill:
Since I live in Bama, I checked it out. BamaDF is actually a liberal; this was a spoof. FWIW.
Foxhunter
@Anne Laurie: I’ve read 200 page books on canine behavior modification that had less of a message than your 3 paragraph response.
Anne Laurie FTW!!
Always enjoy your comments on the doggie posts…thanks for making me smile today.
TrishB
Here’s another view against Millan with some footage that didn’t make it into one of his shows, and which was later deleted off Youtube: Behaviorists against Millan
I saw my bigger boy on a choke chain – once, for 60 seconds. A friend asked to try it. It wasn’t even being pulled at the time. He thrashed around off the goddamned ground straight up in the air like he was going to break his back. Never again.
Please excuse me as I carry my blind, diabetic dog up the stairs for her nightly feed, shot, and eyedrop regimen. Yeah, so I’m a fucking wuss, but my dogs are as healthy and happy as they can be.
Randy P
There is an Akita in our neighborhood who will attack other dogs unprovoked like that. I don’t think there’s much the owners can do about it. She’s a sweet-tempered dog with people, but just really seems to hate other dogs.
dan robinson
You should let her go. That is a behavior that will correct itself.
Svensker
@Derek:
How? My foster dog hates other dogs and is very aggressive toward them. Strictly peaches and cream with people. Just trying to keep her under control around other dogs is hard and she is so strong, I get scared one day she’ll run away with me.
Calming Influence
@AnnaN: Sorry, but I don’t see anything about Cesar Milan or The Dog Whisperer in this position paper. There are a lot of obedience schools that would fit into this category, though. Unless dealing with an extreme case, Cesar uses a sound (“Tsch!” – the equivalent of your clicker, it would seem – to get the dog’s attention), a touch (not a hit – a touch – to refocus the dog on you), and a stance (physically blocking your dog from going where it wants until you decide it’s O.K.). That may seem cruel to some Hindu castes, but parents use the same techniques on children all the time without getting into trouble with Child Services.
Anne
Check out the show It’s Me or the Dog on Animal Planet if you haven’t already. New episodes Saturdays at 8:00 and reruns every morning of the week. I’ve seen several episodes where aggression toward other dogs is dealt with, so if you watch a few episodes you’re bound to find something useful. It’s an enjoyable show in general and the techniques really do work.
Calming Influence
And I would add that a guy who can allow a strange dog to walk into his pack of ~50 rehabilitated pit bulls, dobermans, and other generally problem dogs, and (without intervention on Cesar’s part) not be worried that the newcomer will be torn to shreds, might have something worthwhile to say about dog behavior.
James in WA
@AnnaN:
Totally off topic, but my condolences on your weather right now. I lived in Boulder for almost 20 years before moving to Washington state and discovering how great it is to have a garden. Hard to do with rain-mixed-with-snow in the middle of may, and july hailstorms that pummel plants into oblivion.
Back on topic, yes, John, what AnnaN said!
There, I’ve made noise without adding anything to the discussion. Does that automatically make me a member of the GOP?
SiubhanDuinne
@BrianD:
Yeah, so am I. Hate those things.
freelancer
Hahahahahahahahahaha!
[inhales]
BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Eh…Oh, my sides hurt.
Fallsroad
Positive reinforcement training works, if you learn it correctly and apply it consistently to modify behaviors. As a method for training it can easily be adapted to almost anything you might want to teach Lily.
Milan’s methods do have value, but not for every dog and not in all cases. Actual dog aggression is no joking matter, and it can be argued that in the wrong hands, his methods can make a mild problem significantly worse.
My seizure response dog was raised and trained by an organization that utilizes only positive reinforcement techniques. It is worth noting that I received him when he was just shy of two years old, and he follows all my cues, has learned a lot of other things with me, and never had a single moment of “oh, I was trained by someone else, so you’re not my master, etc.”
Dogs don’t actually think like that.
Adam Collyer
@SiubhanDuinne:
You mean, these things? :)
YellowJournalism
@Anne Laurie: Oh, Anne Laurie, thank you so much for mentioning this book. I had entirely forgotten the title and author’s name. I met the author at a young author’s conference when I was in second or third grade, and I bought a copy of the book because I loved the illustrations so very much. My mom sold my copy at a garage sale, sadly, many years ago. Now I can purchase this for my sons.
booda
Let me preface this by saying that I own two large rescue labradors, one of whom is aggressive towards men out of fear – probably due to past abuse. I use both positive reinforcement and Cesar-style leash correction and “pack leader” methods to work with them.
Hitting is simply ineffective as a training/behavioral modification method. Lily needs training and socialization. Since I don’t know her, I suggest that you consult with a trainer.
However, I will say that patience is your greatest ally. Treats, leash corrections, spray bottles, even – in extreme cases – ecollars. All of these methods can be tried. Hitting or physical intimidation only increases the feeling of aggression/fear in your dog and doesn’t correct the behavioral problem.
Think of it this way: Conservative/authoritarian methods only elicit fear and lack of trust. Progressive/intelligent methods elicit positive behavior and understanding between owner and dog based on mutual respect and trust. It will take patience and effort, but you can correct the behavior with the help of a few sessions with a behaviorist or trainer.
Calming Influence
@Fallsroad:
I’m trying not to be “dogmatic” heh heh! I agree that they’re not going to be responsive to just the one person who trained them. My point is that the advantage to Milan’s approach is his philosophy that in general, the dog is not really the problem. It’s the human who is trying to reason with the dog; it’s the human who thinks that any withholding of affection is torturing the dog; it’s the human who think little yappy dogs are delicate flowers who’s every whim must be catered to. Training a dog without taking into account their natural pack behavior, the behaviors that particular breeds were bred for, and educating the dog’s owner about all of the above, isn’t really addressing the biology.
I’ll admit that I’m a little surprised to the reaction here to Cesar Milan. I’m really just curious as to why some of you find his approach objectionable. What aspects of his training approach don’t you like?
Brachiator
This ain’t just aggression. Lily loves you and is fighting off interlopers who are intruding into her territory — and her territory includes you.
Good luck with your training, but be clear on what behavior you are trying to modify.
Calming Influence
@TrishB:
Really? I missed the show where The Dog Whisperer beats dogs for having diabetes. (I loved that part in “The Horse Whisperer”, though.)
JoyceH
@Anne:
I second the motion. Great show. And some of the dogs on the show start out as little monsters! Amazing what people will put up with – they get a dog and then have a dog and it never occurs to them to train the dog. If the dog turns out to have problems, they seem to think they just have to live with it, luck of the draw. Geez.
Book recommendations – The Art of Raising a Puppy, and How To Be Your Dog’s Best Friend, by the Monks of New Skete.
A great video is Ian Dunbar’s Sirius Puppy Training. I got it ages ago on VHS, not sure if it’s been released on DVD, but Ian Dunbar also has some great dog training books.
Most obedience training classes don’t so much train the dog as train the owner to train the dog; definitely recommended. And then, just for fun – agility training! Maggie and I go to agility and she loves it. Jumping and climbing and running through tunnels – wheee!
Calming Influence
@Anne Laurie:
Sorry to go on about this, but it’s like we’re watching two different programs. Honestly, how many times have you watched the program? I’m fairly certain you’ve missed the frequent episodes with dogs who weren’t naturally aggressive, but were acting that way because they felt that their owner wasn’t in charge of the situation. The idea isn’t to make a naturally submissive dog agressive or vice versa; it to make the dog understand that they don’t have to solve any problem; in this case, Lilly will be happy to let John deal with the other dogs. If John is O.K. with them, Lilly will know that and be O.K. with them too.
Calming Influence
@TrishB:
I love this quote from your link:
Diagnosis by video clip. Says it all, doesn’t it?
asiangrrlMN
Wow. That cat is NOT playing. Great picture. What happened next?
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: I predict blood. Lots and lots of blood. And yelps and hisses. In other words pretty much the world of dogs and cats living together.
Hi hon. I think Pedro ate FH #1.
Fallsroad
@Calming Influence:
“Dogmatic”. Heh.
I’m not totally opposed to Milan’s methods. However, reading about them in a book then trying them out on your dog can cause a lot of problems. This is, as you say, a human training issue (though some issues are really about the dog itself). Fewer trainers are using methods like his, so finding a trainer to work with is more difficult to do.
Positive reinforcement methods, even in the hands of someone who doesn’t understand them very well, can do a lot less damage. They are also, far and away, the most efficient track to teach a dog to do pretty much anything.
Moreover, the entire pack theory of dog behavior has come under intense scientific scrutiny. Dogs are not equivalent to wolves, and relying on pack theories alone to explain and modify behavior isn’t necessarily the most efficient, humane, or effective method.
Unlike any other animal on earth, dogs evolved specifically in response to humans and their behaviors. Unlike any other animal on earth, they are finely attuned to our body language, our facial expressions, our voices (and minute changes in all three), pretty much everything about us. Positive reinforcement methods exploit that fact.
Those methods, by the way, are as much about training the human as they are the dog. I spent six months in intensive training in the field to learn how to utilize the cues Rufus had been taught, to learn how to teach him slight alterations in his training to make us a better human/service dog team, and for both of us to adjust to one another. Having a dog in your immediate vicinity 24/7 is more of an adjustment than some might believe, especially a big Golden Retriever. He literally goes everywhere I do.
His seizure response training is effective as a direct result of his natural ability to read minute changes in my behavior, body language, smell and voice. All that had to be done then was to train him to recognize what a seizure looks and sounds like, and react in a specific set of ways to them. He has since learned, without prompting from me (during seizures I can’t see, speak, or do anything, and eventually lose consciousness), to recognize other patterns that are part of my disparate seizure activity and respond appropriately.
He came ready to go. I needed most of the work.
Lily hasn’t reached the level of some of the extremely aggressive cases Milan deals with. His overall methods aren’t necessarily unsound, but they aren’t fit for every situation, and they are less useful for dog training than positive training regimes.
Lastly it sounds from your comment that you are equating “positive reinforcement” with “letting the dog do as it pleases” and/or “withholding of affection is torturing the dog.” Not so. It appeals to the evolutionary basis of the species itself. It may be a softer method than Milan, but it has nothing to do with humanizing dogs, and everything to do with dealing with who and what dogs actually are.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: I’m starting to get a little worried about him. But, Pedro would lick him to death, not eat him.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: I think if there were enough peanut butter involved, that condition may not hold. Assuming they eat that stuff down there. It is one of those curious American food inventions. That and puppehs absolutely love it.
JL
Brace yourself. That cat is as good as dead. You know it, I know it. It will soon be killed by a pissed off dog. Prepare yourself (and for Chrissake, don’t blame the dog).
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Marmite. I seem to recall that Pedro loves him some marmite.
@JL: Dog is not in kill mode. Yet.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: I’m honestly afeared to Google. Mostly because I still haven’t recovered from my experience with Vegemite. No one can explain that particular culinary obsession to me.
MattR
@JL: That is indoors, right? I’m sure the cat will escape to the top of the refrigerator.
@Yutsano: Did you save/try the peanut butter dog biscuit recipe I posted a while back?
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: This is from Wiki. I think you have a right to be afeared of it.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: Dear God it’s worse than I thought. If I didn’t know for a fact they have Thai restaurants down there I’d be scared to visit.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Heh. I’m sure FH#1 would be happy to take you in hand, as it were. Check your damn e-mail.
g-rant
Calming Influence:
It should be noted that Cesar gets the right results eventually, and he’s correct that consistency is vitally important. It’s just that he is an anachronism and the science has long left him behind. In the wrong hands his methods can be cruel and dangerous. It’s not as if people couldn’t train dogs 30 years ago, its just that we have more effective, more humane methods now.
We know a lot more about dog behavior now than we did when the methods that Cesar uses were developed. This is part of the reason scholars and professional animal behaviorists despise him so much–his popularity has set dog training back 30-40 years. It’s a shame, really.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: Sheesh okay okay dang you’re needy tonight. :)
i have zero doubt I’d be shown a fantastic time if I were to venture down that way. Depending on what happens career-wise in the next three weeks my journey down there may happen sooner rather than later. But one day at a time right now.
Calming Influence
@Fallsroad:
I’m really trying to understand what you object to about Cesar Milan’s methods:
1) I said nothing about reading about it in a book: I offered 3 different ways to observe his methods; none of the other comments so far have offered 30 hours of free video to make your own assessment;
2) There seems to be a general consensus here that Cesar Milan uses primarily negative reinforcement. For f*ck sake, have any of you actually watched the show?
3) The fabulous “clicker” obedience training teaches your dog to behave by giving positive reinforcement when they do something close to right thing: GOOD! Cesar Milan teaches your dog by withholding positive reinforcement until they do something close to the right thing: BAD! WTF.
Every show has an episode name: please point me to any episode where a dog experienced more confusion / trauma by Cesar’s methods in 1 day than 90% of dogs experience every day from owners who think their dogs speak English.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Yes, I am. Damn it. I am your fake-wifey. I deserve to have SOME of my needs met by you!
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: I realize this is why you have at least three spouses and feel like collecting more. I’m just a wee bit overwhelmed is all. I’ll keep up with things however.
I am so getting Thai food for dinner tomorrow.
YellowJournalism
Sorry, but I just reread the thread for the Dog Whisperer debate, and I just have to ask what does that comment mean?
And John, I second the PetSmart recommendation. They have a number of different classes you can take, depending on your dog’s needs, age, and your interest in methodology, like the clicker classes. When we got our dog, I went to what I think was the basic puppy classes. She still responds to most of the commands, including a hand gesture for the sit command.
BTW, I can’t stand the Dog Whisperer. Not for his methods so much as for him. He almost always comes across as an arrogant asshole. My husband thinks he’s great, though, and wanted to try some things out with our dog. What I found was that, like the poster above said, some of his methods were similar to the clicker method in terms of using sounds. But they just didn’t seem to fit for us or our dog, so we went back to the PetSmart training and have never had a problem with her other than some piddle-happy greetings with new people to the house. As she’s aged, that hasn’t been as big of a problem, though.
I would also suggest that you make sure any visitors to your home follow through on anything you’re doing with her for training. Our little terrier had a big problem in her first year with jumping on people who would visit us, and every time we thought we’d nipped it in the bud, a family friend would come around and encourage her to jump in his lap and lick his face. Bugged the piss out of me because it would take an entire week or two to practically retrain the dog.
Okay, again, I’m not saying his methods are terrible. They seem to work for some people quite well, but may not be right for everyone. But I have to say there’s no way they would actually edit his show in a way that would admit failure. The success of the show directly depends on the assumed success of the dogs.
Calming Influence
Oh, sorry, I wasn’t aware that Scholars and Professional Animal Behaviorists despise him. Point taken.
That is a shame.
Really.
Also.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Ha! The more fake-spouses, the better. Thai food sounds good. I want some.
Calming Influence
@YellowJournalism:
Really, that’s a strong argument. I’d go with lots of treats and a Swiffer WetJet.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: I’m thinking nothing fancy, just pad thai and maybe some butterflies. There’s a really good place just down the street from my work, I almost always order from there. And if I decide to wuss out I have a standing dinner date with friends that I need to keep at some point here in the near future.
YellowJournalism
You guys all have a great rest of the night. Let’s all have sweet dreams of hyper doggies and fat, lazy kitty cats.
Yutsano
@YellowJournalism: My fat lazy kitty cat is sleeping on the clean laundry as we speak. Someone needs to explain to me what the exact attraction is for cats and dryers to me.
g-rant
Criticism of Cesar from the experts, not the TV show stars.
Again, it’s not like people haven’t used techniques like his, based on long falsified theories, for the past 30 years. That doesn’t mean there aren’t much more effective techniques out there. He’s a dinosaur.
asiangrrlMN
@YellowJournalism:
@Yutsano:
Both my guys are snoozing on my lap as I type. Awwww!
Yutsy, butterflies?
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: The crab and cream cheese filled won ton thingies. I’m sure you’ve seen and had them under different names, like crab Rangoon and such. Delithiuth.
@YellowJournalism: Sounds like a waste of a good Dentastix to me. Plus I love the cute little corgi in the commercial. Almost enough to make me say me want, but I’d never live down the queen jokes.
YellowJournalism
@Calming Influence: You had to catch me at the refresh just after I wished everyone goodnight…
Okay, I never said that my personal opinion of the guy’s attitude was an argument for not using his methods. In fact, I tried them out. I just really don’t like the guy because his TV persona comes off as cocky and reminds me of someone I knew a long time ago.
Well, thank you for that wonderful advice. I’m sure everyone on here has enjoyed trying to reasonably discuss the subject with you. You seem so pleasant about coming up against an opposing view. So in return: stick your Dentabone where the sun don’t shine.
YellowJournalism
@Yutsano: @asiangrrlMN: Anyways…good night luvs. I’m going to take my dog upstairs and let her sleep on the end of the bed.
Calming Influence
@YellowJournalism:
Again: It’s clear you haven’t watched the show. He has admitted failure a number of times: in one case offering to take an extremely difficult dog from a couple, and offering in exchange a dog from his family that was more suited to them.
I’m coming off as a disciple only because there seems to be an extreme bias against Cesar Milan here, without a lot of substance to back it up.
Tell me what he does that is inhumane. Tell me what he does that is punishment. Tell me what he does that hurts the dog, frightens the dog, makes the dog cower in fear. Tell me that he doesn’t give dogs affection or rewards. Tell me that his dogs aren’t relaxed, calm, well rounded dogs. Tell me that Daddy isn’t the coolest pit bull you’ve ever seen.
g-rant
Yet more stuff.
g-rant
This guy is a much better alternative.
asiangrrlMN
@YellowJournalism: Night, babe.
Calming Influence
@YellowJournalism:
And you remind me of someone I knew long ago as well.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: You go nap or dai ji or hunt down FH #1, I’m crashing out.
Fallsroad
@Calming Influence:
Milan’s methods are all based on the “pack mentality” (he uses that phrase all the time, and yes, I’ve seen a ton of his shows and even read one of his books) model that is no longer consistent with what science knows about how dogs operate, how they evolved, and how they learn. His method involves physical intimidation of the dogs coupled with what he terms “corrections” for negative behavior (never mind some of the more extreme methods he uses for “red zone” dogs). He claims this is consistent with how dogs view humans as just another pack mate, when they really don’t see it that way at all.
Positive reinforcement doesn’t rely on physical intimidation of the dogs, nor physical or vocal “corrections” of unwanted behavior. Instead, unwanted behavior is never singled out, it is completely ignored, and only the correct, wanted behavior is rewarded, through the use of treats and/or praise (there is necessarily more to it, but that is the thrust of it). Dogs learn incredibly quickly this way, if the human is consistent.
These methods are more consistent with what we have learned about how dogs evolved and their utterly unique relationship to humans. That last part is key. Milan believes that dogs view humans as members of the canine species, when dogs actually view humans very differently from other dogs. Humans can still employ dominance training and get some results, but it is a very blunt tool where a finer one will achieve better results in less time, and with less chance for errors.
Milan sells his methods as a way to rehabilitate problem dogs, and they *can* work. There is a lot of dispute about how effective they are, and what side effects they may engender. Notice he sells his methods to fix problems, but it is implied that his methods are appropriate for any dog training situation (though he studiously avoids using the word “training” at all) an owner may encounter.
That means you have people using physical intimidation and outmoded ideas of being literal dominant pack leaders attempting to train dogs. This is far from ideal, given how dogs actually function on their own and in relation to humans, and can cause a lot of unintended problems. It can even prove to be rather dangerous to both the dogs and the humans.
Milan is very good at what he does, his specific cases all seem to work out well, and he has been doing this for a long time, but the science of dog behavior, intelligence, and training has advanced far beyond his model. And his model is not generally appropriate, whereas positive methods (which involve more and different things than just clicker training, fwiw) can be applied to any training a person wishes to do. My six months with the field rep and Rufus provided a rock solid model I’ve been able to use to train Rufus to do things it hadn’t occurred to me to ask for when I was approved for a service dog.
A fun book on dog intelligence is “Inside Of A Dog” by Alexandra Horowitz, which provides an excellent overview and explanation of much of the latest work on dogs, their evolution, and intelligence.
Lesley
I highly recommend watching Cesar Milan in action. He knows and understands dogs and the human-dog relationship.
I found I learned a great deal by watching him.
It sounds like Lily is being unnecessarily possessive and protective of you and her family. She has assumed an alpha role. She needs to know you are in charge so she doesn’t have to be and it’s not her job to be the alpha dog on home turf or anywhere else.
I agree with what Calming Influence said. Some people are bad mouthing Milan for no good reason.
g-rant
@Fallsroad thanks for the heavy lifting.
Calming Influence
@g-rant: You link to one dog obedience trainer’s site to refute the methods of another dog obedience trainer; that’s awesome.
I surrender. Good night.
I will honestly try to find out as much as I can about dog training methods before ever typing here again.
Calming Influence
@g-rant: Yeah, told him dude!
Fallsroad
@g-rant:
I do my best.
@Calming Influence:
You ask for examples. Leash popping can scare & confuse a dog (and done incorrectly, injure a dog). The kick-touch can scare and confuse a dog. Choke chains are just unnecessary. All of his focus is on negative behaviors, and the reaction from him is similarly negative. Yes, he loves dogs, no doubt, but during any specific “rehabilitation”, the focus is entirely negative.
I’m not dumping on the guy because I hate him or anything – like I said, I have seen the show many times and enjoyed it, and did read one of his books, and Daddy is (was?) way cool.
But when it comes to training dogs, there are far better ways to do it that are much more in line with what dogs actually are as creatures, than what Milan is doing. The recent science is pretty astonishing, and very eye opening.
And I am up way too late. I don’t comment much here, so I’m mostly a stranger, but good night, all.
Calming Influence
@g-rant: Yeah, told him dude!@Calming Influence: Forget I said that. I tried to request deletion, but somehow it didn’t work.
Love you all,
Calming Influence.
Calming Influence
@Fallsroad:
And I will look for the recent science.
night.
Lesley
Fallsroad, you seem to contradict yourself. Milan is outmoded, not up to speed, you say, and then “Milan is very good at what he does, his specific cases all seem to work out well, and he has been doing this for a long time” – so which is it?
You can see relief in the dogs he’s worked with. Dogs that could never relax, dogs that couldn’t play, dogs that were perpetually guarding, snarly, afraid, jealous, and otherwise neurotic. They relax, experience peace. How is that destructive?
Have you ever watched canids/wolves with each other? Even in play a dog can seem savage when they are nothing of the kind.
Your characterizations of Milan are dead wrong. For example, Milan never uses “physical intimidation” with any dog. That approach is the antithesis of everything he stands for.
Milan is not in any way abusive. He relates to dogs the way they relate to each other. He respects their intelligence and asks humans to stop treating them like they are children. Mostly what he does is train humans to think and behave differently around their dogs. He doesn’t physically intimidate the humans either btw. But some of what he says might feel threatening to someone attached to bad habits.
Lesley
@Calming Influence:
The coolest pitbull in the world might be Pitbull Sharky.
MattR
@Lesley:
This really is the essence of the whole debate, isn’t it? Does a dog want a human to be part of the pack or does it want a different relationship with a human?
PS. I see nothing contradictory in pointing out that Milan’s methods are outdated or that they are not the most effective yet that Milan is very good at practicing those methods.
Keith G
@Calming Influence:Re: Milan’s methods
I have heard several DMVs and degreed canine behaviorists deconstruct his methods based on research.
His philosophy and hypotheses come up lacking – a Dr Phil of dogs.
Gatsby
Time to enroll Lily in obedience shool. But, please, do not hit her! She trusts you.
Egilsson
I think this sounds comically ridiculous.
Anytime you hear of this sort of knowledge “superiority”, you should be immediately suspicious.
And when you know it’s from dog trainers (!), then you know it’s a joke.
Another Milan fan here, and it sounds to me like critics have never watched the frigging show.
g-rant
@Eglisson: Yes I’ve watched the show. Good entertainment? Maybe. Does Cesar love dogs? Yep. Good science and training? Not anymore. Check the links I put up earlier.
Long story short: Wolves barely form packs; Dogs are not wolves; Dogs haven’t been wolves for oh, say 15,000yrs; Dominance in wolves doesn’t work like we thought it did; Dominance in dogs may not even exist; Animal behavior modification has been studied scientifically for decades now and can be applied to dog training; etc.
Cesar is old school, and very good at old school training methods, outdated and based in flawed knowledge of dogs (and wolves, and the dog-wolf relationship) as they are. If people gain anything from his show it should be that consistency is very important. Everything else is just entertainment. The “Dr. Phil” of dogs, indeed.
Egilsson
Yeah, I read it, and to say I was unimpressed is putting it mildly.
Here’s your “expert”, as stated in footnote 1: Lisa Jackson-Schebetta, School of Drama, PhD Program in Theatre History and Critical Theory, University of Washington.
Those Theatre History students really have sussed out the nuances of dogs I guess.
The others have similarly pitiful backgrounds – other than being far less successful dog trainers. Certainly nothing that suggests any grand breakthrough of the sort you fantasize.
AnnaN
I’d put more stock in animal behaviorists than I would in a guy who has complete editing and control over what you see on his show.
The problem with the dominance theory of training is, as has been well stated by Fallsroad, that the methods come from a false understanding of how dogs really view humans.
Sure, Milan’s efforts may work, but they really aren’t the best way to go about training and can be downright abusive when used by people who really only care that they are the Alpha in the relationship. Dominance theory will work in my relationship with my boss, but if he clicked and treated me every time he wanted me to do something differently, our relationship will be a lot more solid than if he walked by my office everyday and silently mouthed “Me. Alpha.” and thumped his own chest. Srsly.
But I am curious as to why the pro-Milan people can’t like the guy and his show but also admit that his methods are not what is recommended by animal behaviorists.
Egilsson
By “animal behaviorists” do you mean Theatre History students and competing book authors (i.e. less successful dog trainers)?
Pretending there is unanimity of understanding or some huge breakthrough in understanding animal behavior is not persuasive – particularly when it is based on as weak authorities as I have seen so far.
BTW, dogs aren’t little people, so anthropomorphizing dogs through your boss’s example isn’t relevant.
Srsly.
Fallsroad
@Lesley:
His methods can be workable, and still be, on the whole, wrong, based on theories and assumptions that no longer stand up to the research. I don’t think Milan is evil or an animal abuser, but I do think he is quite wrong about many things relating to dogs.
I’ve watched the show, all but the latest season, and read one of his books (cannot recall which title). I’m quite familiar with what he does.
Physical intimidation, btw, is most certainly one of his methods. He uses his body in many ways to push, move, shove, control and yank dogs in a variety of ways. It may not be injurious, but it is not optimal when it comes to how dogs learn and how they regard humans (if you consider just how sensitive dogs are to human body language, then watch one of his shows, this becomes even more obvious). His extreme cases involve immersion in fear inducing activities, choke chains, and body slamming dogs on the ground to force submission. It “works” but in most cases is totally unnecessary.
We can argue about whether these practices are abusive, but they are most certainly physically intimidating.
People watch the show and think this is how to treat their own dogs as a substitute for actual, rigorous, positive reinforcement training. Forced submission is not equivalent to dog training.
Milan does give some good advice to the humans on his show, especially the exercise admonishments and patience, but his methods in the hands of amateurs could be quite dangerous. I said before he rarely uses the words “dog training” to describe what he does, but it is clear from both the format of his show and his books that people are encouraged to take his method and apply them to dog training, and there are better, safer ways to do it.
Dominance theory is far too simplistic to remain the core component of a method of training.
The science of canine cognition has long passed Milan by, as have the better training methods that not only are more efficient, but conform more closely to what we have learned about actual dog intelligence and behavior, and their unique relationship to human beings.
Shinobi
Everything I know about the effectiveness of Cesar Milan’s training methods I learned from watching the behavior of his “pack” and the dogs he trains.
These “calm submissive” dogs are not happy well adjusted dogs doing what their owner wants because they love and trust him. These are dogs that are constantly exhibiting “Calming signals” to their owner to prevent him from using more negative reinforcement methods on them. Panting excessively, looking away, yawning, licking paws. All of these are signals saying “don’t hurt me, stay calm crazy guy who owns me.”
I’ve also seen him use techniques like “Flooding” on anxious dogs, this is a technique where you force a dog (or person) into a situation that makes them anxious. It forces them into a state of learned helplessness. Afraid of linoleum floors? how about we make you sit on linoleum floors until you learn that you have no choice. (He did this, to a dog, I think it was a greyhound, i could not continue to watch the show after this.)
Cesar Milan does say and do a lot of good things, owners do need to treat their dogs like dogs, they need to make sure the dogs get enough exercise, and dogs need consistent boundaries to make it easy for them to succeed at being good dogs. But a lot of his methods involve punishment, and forced compliance, instead of teaching a dog that doing what you want and engaging in behaviors you want can be beneficial for both you and your dog.
Ultimately focusing on positive methods, using reward based training and positive conditioning, can not only teach your dog how to behave, but also teaches them that doing what you want results in good things, it builds trust and a bond with your dog that is different from “if you sit I wont pop you on the collar.”
I would definitely second the recommendation for watching It’s Me or The Dog on Animal Planet. Victoria Stillwell uses a lot of great positive training techniques that work and don’t put you in an adversarial relationship with a dog.
AnnaN
@Egilsson:
Sorry, I guess you didn’t catch my attempt at humor. Next time, smilies abound so there won’t be any confusion.
:)
MaskedBandit
I recommend checking out your local dog behaviorists. In Salt Lake City, the K-9 Lifeline has free dog socialization classes. Everyone comes into a large room with a concrete floor with several dog trainers. When asked, we release our dogs and walk in a circle, avoiding the gazes of the dogs and not touching them. The dogs learn to interact with each other, and the trainers interrupt any dogs who start to head outside the acceptable boundaries (such as getting into the space of a scared dog, excessively rough playing, nervous barking). Most of the time, a simple “Hey!” stops the behavior.
My recent adopted puppy Jax (German shepherd/St. Bernard mix) was scared and huddled in the corner for the first session. Since then, he now moves and greets the other dogs. When dog walking, he doesn’t pull as hard when there are other dogs about. (I’m still working on ending his pulling entirely, but that’s a work in progress.) New dogs will sometimes huddle in a corner or cling to their owners, but they typically get much better in a few sessions.
I also agree with what some others have posted: enroll Lily in a Petsmart dog training class. Let them know that Lily needs some controlled socialization and confidence building. Maybe, after some socialization, you could introduce Lily to your neighbor’s dogs in a non-threatening location, like a nearby park. Bring lots of treats to help her understand that it’s a good thing.
Fallsroad
@Shinobi:
QFT.
Some of those behaviors are just straight stress indicators.
Not all of the dogs on Milan’s show exhibit these behaviors, but a great many do.
Calming Influence
@Shinobi: et al:
I’m starting to dig through all the links and groups mentioned here, and I’m open to any additional info presented. I’m honestly trying to find out what the science is that current training methods are supposed to be based on. Open mind, the truth is out there, &c., &c.
One thought I’d just like to throw out there: is it possible that the show “It’s Me or The Dog” is edited for content? That The Dog Whisperer” is edited has come up a couple of times in this thread, with sinister overtones that the worst treatment and many failures are being hidden from us.
I haven’t seen “It’s Me Or The Dog”, but I plan to start watching it. How do you assess Victoria Stillwell’s success rate?
Fallsroad
@Calming Influence:
It’s impossible for anyone not privy to the behind the scenes stuff – after care, continuing problems, how dogs and people are selected to be on either show, etc., to judge success rates. Both shows are necessarily edited for content -that’s the nature of television.
Personally I didn’t comment on the edited nature of his show as an indicator of failure or hidden problems. There are enough problems with his methods as they choose to present them – no need to go off in the weeds – and far more qualified folks than I have written or spoken about them.
The Horowitz book I mentioned above is very good – a detailed overview of much of the recent and current work going on in dog behavior and cognition. There have been several excellent documentary shows about these subjects, though at the moment the titles escape me (pretty sure one was done by the BBC, and at least two I’ve seen were American productions).
AnnaN
@Calming Influence
Beyond my criticism of Milan’s/any dominance/punishment method of training, I don’t think anything sinister is being hidden. However, (and this is a criticism to any dog training show not done in real time) there is no way to know how many stops and starts are needed before a dog “gets it” or any number of dog responses that won’t actually impress the audience or give the viewer a sense of triumph.
The reality is that dog training takes effort, time, patience and consistency and a television show which occurs in 60 minutes (43 minutes if you don’t count commercials) cannot possibly convey that.