Here’s a game you can play at home for good clean fun. Which statement was made by a Firebagger, and which statement was made by a teabagger:
Everybody is celebrating this health care reform legislation like we just won the Super Bowl. Or just beat Iraq. All that’s missing is the “Mission Accomplished” sign.
***It feels a little like when we pulled Saddam’s statue down in Baghdad. Yea, we beat Saddam! Was that ever a question? Of course, we were going to take Baghdad, but that didn’t mean we won the war. With this premature celebration over health care reform, I smell a little Iraq in the air.
“The day that bill was passed will be remembered just as 9-11 was remembered in history,”
I’m sure this will be a fun game that lasts a long while.
EvolutionaryDesign
3/21 ~ Never Forget
Tax Analyst
Well, I’m stumped.
freelancer
Ballistic 2: Wingnut vs.
PUMAPurity troll.“Whoever wins, we lose.”
Fergus Wooster
1 = Firebagger, 2 = Teabagger.
What did I win??
Morbo
I got it, mainly because I was just reading an FDL thread to estimate the craziness factor in the comments. I’d say it was about 10%.
Omnes Omnibus
It is a trick question.
4tehlulz
JEWS DID HCR
robertdsc
Gross. Just disgusting.
Face
Too many tags. Took a good thing and you abused it. Repeal them now, or I’ll refuse to cooperate with your blog for the rest of the year.
trollhattan
(Sigh) I’m too wrung out to play. Teh Fahrbaggers need to get on with something useful, or be tossed in history’s dumpster along with the pumas. Tbogg and BT must feel a little odd living over there.
On a bright note, Sully has discovered a way to smack McMegan’s “lack of intellectual honesty” without saying it directly–via reader letters. Oh happy day.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/03/sometimes-the-other-side-just-wins.html#more
What an embarrassment she is yet, oddly, continually employed.
Adrienne
Statement 1 = Firebagger. Teabaggers really think that we accomplished the “mission” in Iraq. That’s a tell-tale sign.
Statement 2 = Teabagger.
Violet
1-Firebagger; 2-Teabagger. Leftists mention Iraq. Teabaggers mention 9/11.
Too easy.
Mark S.
Without looking, 1 is firebagger and 2 is teabagger.
This is total bullshit, though:
Anyone paying the slightest bit of attention knows that this is pure, unadulterated bullshit. This makes sense if you’ve never heard of Bart Stupak or Scott Brown. What a fucking idiot.
Punchy
Can we bring both groups together if I agree to teabag Jane Hamsher?
Midnight Marauder
The 9/11 reference is a dead giveaway of teabagger rhetoric. That’s just too easy.
Now the first statement, that one sounds like it could have come from one of those mythical “sane conservatives.” But I caught just enough whiff of firebagger with the phrasing:
What, exactly, is premature about celebrating legislation almost 100 years in the making?
Firebagger. Through and through.
Ecks
Easy, as they have different brands of crazy.
1 = firebagger. Real teabaggers think we won the war in Iraq, so wouldn’t make this comparison.
2 = teabagger. Firebaggers have as much resentment of 9/11 being exploited as a Republican scare tactic as we do.
Maybe similar levels of crazy, but in two distinctly delicious flavors.
licensed to kill time
I love the smell of teafirebaggernapalm in the morning. It’s all swirled up and impossible to separate into coherent idea streams, verb noun 9/11 Iraqi memes.
geemoney
I agree with Wooster @4. I don’t think any Teabagger would ever disparage the Mission Accomplished photo op.
Here’s a slightly related question: There’s lots of talk here about the 26-27% of the population that will always support the authoritarians, even contrary to their best interests. I have tended to think of them as being on the right of the spectrum, but maybe that’s off, as indicated by this tea/firebagger confluence. Anyway, do you think that the left has a similar percentage? My inclination would be that the similar, left-leaning purity trolls are a much lesser percentage, but maybe it’s just that they’re less vocal. Thoughts?
JGabriel
Firebagger is #1, and #2 is the Palindrone.
You can tell from the first sentence in #1:
Firebaggers still nominally identify with the left, whereas a teabagger would have used “they” instead “we”.
Too easy, really. In the future, try to pick examples that don’t give the answer away through grammatical or misspelling cues.
.
beltane
The only reason I know the answer to this is because I was masochistic enough to read the Cenk Uyger piece.
You’ think with Grover Norquist’s money, he could have bought off some more plausible sounding turncoats.
gbear
Oooh! oooh! I remember reading about the 9/11 reference being uttered on a news show, but I can’t remember which one. I think it was an actual seated republican politician who said it so I’ll guess he’s a teabagger too. My guess: #1=firebagger.
Admiral_Komack
Statement # 1-Firebagger.
Statement # 2-Teabagger.
J.W. Hamner
My instinct is 1) Firebagger, 2) Teabagger for reasons listed above… but then I realized that Mr. Cole knows firebagger and teabagger proclivities as well as anyone, so he must be setting this up as a trick… so that means it must be 1) Teabagger 2) Firebagger… but wait… Cole would know that we would know that he would know…. so maybe he set us up to out think ourselves, so that means…
What was the the question again?
stevie314159
Better game: How soon will this appear on Glenn Beck:
On MARCH 23rd, Obama signed HCR in law. What else happened on that date in history?
1919 Moscow’s Politburo/Central Committee forms
1920 Perserikatan Communist of India (PKI) political party forms
1933 Enabling Act: German Reichstag grants Adolph Hitler dictatorial powers
1942 US move native-born of Japanese ancestry into detention centers
1973 Yoko Ono is granted permanent residence in US
Dark days all around.
Fergus Wooster
@geemoney: Actually I think lefties are generally predisposed to be suspicious of authority – with the exception of a Stalinist/Trotskyite column, all of which went neocon years ago. Your entrenched lefties are more likely to view the political process through an anarchist lens than authoritarian.
There was a study a couple years ago (can’t remember where) that demonstrated that authoritarian tendencies among the left are miniscule-to-nonexistent, while a nice percentage of the right is waiting for the order to fire up the ovens.
Paris
#2 is apparently some Buffalo millionaire who is going to try to be the GOP candidate for NY Governor. They actually found someone that David Paterson could beat.
Lavocat
Statement #1 is correct.
Statement #2 is not.
Kevin Moore
Apples and oranges. While the “firebagger” comparison to Mission Accomplished is strained, rhetorically and logically, I can sympathize with the sense of premature victory celebrated by my fellow lefties. There were a lot of concessions to Republicans, free marketeers, the health and pharmaceutical industries and conservative Democrats in order to achieve legislation that has dubious prospects for success and keeps much of the health insurance industry in place. There is much to support about the bill, but there is also much to be upset about.
I don’t think the comparison to teabaggers is remotely fair, btw. You may find it fun, but I find it petty and intellectually dishonest.
Pavlov's Dog
I’ve been doing the same thing for weeks, except is Firbaggers vs comments at NoIQ. The give away that the comment thread is NoIQ is they are still saying Hillary won the primary…
ChrisZ
@J.W. Hamner:
John is almost certainly playing 11-dimensional chess with us. Therefore you must go 11 steps deep in your analysis to figure this out. Thus:
1. Teabagger
2. Firebagger
MikeMc
I just went over to the HuffingtonPost and read some of Cenk Uyger’s posts. His ideas are pretty goofy. He thought the Tea Party movement and whatever movement he’s part of should unite for a populist uprising. He’s pissed that healthcare passed without hamsher’s blessing, so he’s trying to make it seem like it was always going to pass. Sore loser!
licensed to kill time
@Fergus Wooster:
A popular hippie button (yes, people wore buttons, often many of them ;-) in the 60’s was ‘Question Authority’.
One of my favorites was ‘Be Peculiar’.
stuckinred
@Kevin Moore: You haven’t spent enough time over there IMHO.
Blue Raven
@Lavocat:
Troll.
Try harder.
Rick Taylor
It was too easy. A Tea bagger wouldn’t make derisive comments about “Mission Accomplished” or Bush’s execution of the Iraq war. Only reforming health care is death to freedom as we know it; starting a war using a completely false causus belli is at worse an understandable mistake.
Fergus Wooster
@licensed to kill time: I was always partial to “Never Trust Anyone Over 30.”
Until I turned 31. Now it’s petty, evil, mean-spirited. Damned hippies.
JGabriel
I PROTEST!
I just noticed that in the rotating Balloon Juice subheader, we have the phrase This is a big f——g deal!
This site is arguably most famous for the phrase “skull-fuck a kitten” and now we’re going to get prim about spelling out “fuck”? WTF?
I PROTEST! I demand – well, ok, not so much demand as make a silly faux protest – that the subheader be changed from This is a big f——g deal! to This is a big fucking deal!
.
SGEW
By the way, is any one else (New Yorkers or otherwise) incredibly offended at the HCR = September 11th, 2001 terrorist attack analogy?
Some of us actually lost friends and/or family on that day. Nobody is scraping the dust of human remains off of our fucking windows today.
God damn it.
Joseph Nobles
OT: Lieberman just tweeted that he’s voting Yes on the reconciliation bill.
http://twitter.com/JoeLieberman/status/10992459750
Joshua Norton
I hope the looneys that FDL has picked up over this can make up for the sane people she’s completely turned off. HCR was a 9/11 call for Firebaggers, not the rest of us.
Mnemosyne
Our own resident firebagger, NR, came up with something even better in the thread below:
Now that’s some quality firebagging.
kay
Mission Accomplished is hackneyed and silly and DC pundit-like.
Next it will be “Obama’s Katrina”, and the alliance with Norquist will be complete.
I think they have to try harder.
Polish the Guillotines
Heh. I called this one last night:
(via TPM)
These fuckers are congenitally devoid of shame.
JGabriel
SGEW:
As a New Yorker: Yes and No. I absolutely recognize its offensiveness, but I’ve also grown a little numb to it – it’s Crazytown, Jake.
.
trollhattan
As has been noted, Iraq and Mission Accomplished are holy wafers to TeabagNation(TM), never to be used as punch lines.
JC’s quiz (at least this level 1 edition) is much easier than the famous Coulter vs. Hitler quote-off:
http://www.giveupblog.com/hitlercoulterquiz.html
Progressive Elitist
While Cenk’s rhetoric (#1) is way over the top and ridiculous, I’m curious as to what folks think about the specific point he makes in his article about insurance companies raising rates right around election time and Republicans and everyone else blaming it on this healthcare bill.
That doesn’t mean that this bill isn’t a great thing, I just tend to agree that this will indeed happen and Democrats should be prepared for it.
bayville
Now the challenge, revisit Cenk’s column in 2012 to see if he was correct.
nutellaontoast
Fire v Tea:
“I don’t like murder”
“Murder is bad”
OMG
fourlegsgood
I’m stumped. Both groups have gone bat-shit crazy.
Paula
Re the firebaggers:
It’s one thing to stand on principle, it’s another to make all sorts of mental gyrations to deny the difficulty of getting even this watered down bill passed. And it takes some balls to maintain that this bill was a complete and total disaster when it appears to offer some much-needed relief to a lot of people, even if it doesn’t up-end the fundamentals of our health care infrastructure. I have the same reservations, but in the face of some of the immediate benefits that are coming to people, my reservations are worth very little, esp. since I’m not an activist of any kind.
The only intellectual choice for them is to leave the Democratic party. While it would be a little bad if numbers were depleted, I honestly can’t continue to deal with the fundamental tendentiousness and duplicity of their positioning. On the one hand, they want to be treated like major political base players who can dictate politics and policy with the mainstream. On the other, they want credit for being rebellious outsiders who defend their ideals against compromise. And what shits me is that they pick already compromised policies as the hill to die on (like the public option vis a vis single payer). And they will get shunted out, mostly because if this health care law is even a moderate success their deep irrelevance to a debate about what actually happens to people in real life is going to stand out even more.
Dee Loralei
@Progressive Elitist: The way I understand it Nancy SMASH told reporters that insurance companies would be less inclined to raise rates because they want to be admitted to the exchanges when they get up and running in 2014. And in order to be in the exchanges insurance companies have to use 80-85% of monies collected for actual treatment. So that should hold rising rates down.
ETA: Insurance companies want a chance at the 32 million new customers, best way to reach them is through the exchanges. I’m sure someone here can explain it better.
Mnemosyne
@Progressive Elitist:
They may try, but they will be barred from the Exchange and won’t have access to any of those 30 million new customers (plus any customers who want to change their current insurance).
I’m not saying that none of them are short-sighted enough to trade those 30 million new customers for one or two quarters of increased profit before the new regulations kick in, but they’ll basically be writing their company’s death warrant if they do.
clone12
Rudy Giuli321ni sez: “Never Forget!”
mcc
Seeing blog commenters people in various places claiming the insurance companies/Republicans are secretly celebrating today:
The thing that I think is overlooked is that behaving like this isn’t just bad for the democrats, it’s bad progressivism, it’s bad advocacy for the public option. Once you’re willing to descend into conspiracy theory like this rather than let go of one of your assumptions, you’ve disconnected yourself from reality in a way that hurts your ability to change it. If for example you’re living in a fantasy world where the primary obstacle to the public option was Obama and Pelosi and Kucinich secretly working against it all along in order to allow their secret masters the Republicans to pass their health care fascism bill while pretending to oppose it, then you’re not going to be able to form an informed mental picture of the situation such that you can come back next year and get the public option actually passed.
SGEW
OT:
From Yglesias, recalling his attendance at a blogger meeting with the Speaker of the House:
Nancy SMASH!
However, technically speaking, I don’t think that hitting Yglesias counts as “hippie punching.”
Progressive Elitist
Thanks to both of you for the very good explanations.
While the GOP is certainly very short sighted, I agree that the insurance companies probably wouldn’t be in this case if it means not having access to the millions of new customers.
Ripley
I take it, then, that we won’t be greeted as liberators?
Stroszek
@bayville: Cenk makes a number of factual errors in the column, so there’s no way he can be correct. The insurance companies didn’t “get” 31,000,000 new customers. Most of the people newly covered by this bill will be covered by Medicaid (a fact that Firebaggers conveniently ignore). It’s also far from “obvious” that passage of a bill this comprehensive and, yes, liberal was a foregone conclusion. It’s fairly well documented that we came very close to a mini-bill containing little more than some token regulations for children and a high-risk pool.
On top of that, no one is claiming that this bill solves all health care problems. Obama himself has said that this is only a first step. On that front, Cenk is lazily swinging his flabby arms at a strawman, evidently bitter that people are happy about an immense step forward that he opposed.
Third, it’s just profoundly poor taste to compare a bill providing assistance to millions of lower income families to the needless, illegal and grotesquely expensive obliteration of a sovereign state. If he were anything other than a shameless attention whore, he could have made a coherent and apt analogy by saying something like, “It’s important to remind ourselves that the civil rights legislation of the 60’s, though a step in the right direction, didn’t end many of the injustices of racism that we still face today.”
Finally, anyone who thinks a public option or 55+ Medicare buy-in would have prevented long-term growth in medical costs is a fucking idiot.
stuckinred
@Joshua Norton: Thank you, thank you very much.
kay
I started this silly email back and forth with a local newspaper reporter over his incredibly dishonest opinion piece disguised as an interview that ran in the local paper.
He has been chastised before by management at the paper (it’s a small town – we all know everything) for letting his tea baggery interfere with his work, and I’m a subscriber, so he has to keep thanking me for sending him factual rebuttals to all his lunatic pulled-out-of-his-ass claims.
We’re now on like Round Ten, and I’m bored, so I’m not playing anymore.
I’ve noticed this before. Conservatives will never, ever disengage.
He would go on for MONTHS, I bet.
He’s like my prisoner. If I keep responding, he’ll keep trying for the last word.
The Raven
The radical right is more apt to make terrorism comparisons. Kinda obvious, with that in mind.
My take on this is we are all happy the radical right lost. But the center lost, too.
Anya
Statement 1 = Firebagger, only because Wingnuts will never critizize the use of the Mission Accomplished banner. The second statement can be either.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@kay:
Yea, I live near a small town in the boonies and we have a tea bagger guy like that who did own one of two radio stations in town, and would spend an hour or two each day delivering garbage worse than what is on Drudges rag.
He sold his station to some big radio outfit, but still goes on the air with what he calls. “My Word” program and sells the garbage like it’s fact. I think he is a devotee of John Gibson from Fox Infamy.
I don’t know where he gets the RW drek that is way way out there, that sounds like straight out of Freeperville, and goes straight into the brains of kids who listen to the POP music the station plays.
I have tried to call him several times to complain, but the staff apparently covers for him with a “he’s not available” retort. I finally just gave up and haven’t listened to the station in a long while. So I don’t know if he’s still at it.
And the irony is, this is a three to one dem stronghold county of artsy hippies mostly, and we did have a station that played Americana that tried to hook up with bringing Air America, but the local wingnut businesses threatened to pull their ads, so they abandoned the idea. And the wingers still pulled their ads and the station went out of business. Asshats.
MyDyingBride
This is slightly off topic (but not by much), but Neo Neo Con may need an intervention soon. She’s not handling this well.
Alan in SF
Is it really controversial to say that the HCR bill is the first step in a long battle, and that real reform is going to be a lot harder? If we don’t admit that, we’re in big trouble.
Granted, comparing it to Bush/Iraq is harsh.
JGabriel
Stroszek:
Actually, the Medicaid buy-in for anyone making less than 4x poverty may end up being the path to single payer. Now we can gradually federalize, strengthen, and broaden Medicaid over time.
I’m not saying it’s the ideal path forward, but at least it’s an option. And given that states have more variability in Medicaid, it provides more room for experiment to potentially find better solutions for the future than a straightforward Medicare buy-in might have provided.
.
kay
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
We have a lot of local right wing celebrities. One radio DJ accepted money to run John Kerry ads then talked over them with derisive comments. My husband was a donor to the Kerry campaign, and a brand new non-wimpy Democrat, so sent him some mumbo -jumbo cease and desist letter, and he ceased and desisted.
We were laughing because the letter was meaningless, yet stern.
I just sent the newspaper reporter the link to the “benefits of health care reform by Congressional District” for our District, in response to his baseless assertion that “it doesn’t help rural people”, which as you know is a variant on the tea bagger “it only helps black people” nonsense.
I love that link because it’s specific. there are 7100 uninsured people with preexisting conditions, in my CD.
Wingers are afraid of numbers. He’ll flee after that.
twiffer
@Fergus Wooster: when i turned 31, i just assumed i was no longer trustworthy. [grin]
actually, i think that axiom morphed into “never trust anyone 10-15 years older than yourself, unless they are offering you a well paying job. then at least pretend to trust them.”
kay
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
I think they’re sort of wannabes. This guy repeated his horrible flowery language, and complimented his own writing, which sucks as newspaper writing.
When reading his stuff, you often don’t know where he is or who he is talking to. A big mish-mash of generalities and unsupported statements. You’re like “who is ‘she’ and what did she do? Was the person writing this THERE?”
I start my complaints with “on the third reading of your piece….”
JGabriel
MyDyingBride:
Heh. I just posted this over there, under the UserID Helpful Liberal:
It’s fun fanning the flames of Fox Party self-destruction!
.
Waynski
@SGEW: I live and work downtown and was here on 9/11 also. Honestly, Bush and Giuliani and the other Republican opportunists who constantly waved a bloody shirt these past 8.5 years have made me somewhat immune to getting upset about this kind of garbage anymore. I just don’t have the emotional stamina to keep up the outrage. That said, anyone who pulls this crap is fucking dead to me.
Stroszek
@JGabriel: I don’t disagree. CBO indicates that the Medicaid expansion covers more people than either the Medicare buy-in or public option would have. The fact that progressives completely ignored and dismissed it (and thus, prevented it from becoming a target for Lieberman and the like) was actually an incredible stroke of good fortune.
But now that the bill is passed, it’s a hard slog to convince progressive skeptics that, yes, they did get an enormous concession that more fully constitutes the security of a social welfare program than anything we’ve been obsessing over for this past year.
sparky
JC: trolling your blog again? if you’re gonna do that can’t you at least use a Glenzilla post? those are rubbernecker delights, at least. these are pretty meh, though i admit i almost fell for it.
Fergus Wooster
@twiffer:
I like, but can you fit it on a button?
sparky
@Stroszek: not true. the argument was simply that this could have been done without the concessions to the insurance companies.
also, you seem to be assuming medicaid is not going to be cut. kinda curious exactly what the basis is for assuming that, given this:
Snowwy
@JGabriel: You are an evil, evil person. Awesome.
Mnemosyne
@mcc:
People who have reached that point of paranoia aren’t going to be trying improve the bill or get a public option passed because they’ve already convinced themselves that the enormous conspiracy against it won’t allow it, or that they’ll ostensibly get what they want but it actually be the opposite. Many of our resident firebaggers are channeling a low-grade form of this paranoia.
Buying into the conspiracy theories means that you’ve given up on accomplishing any meaningful reform and would rather wank on the sidelines than actually do anything.
Mnemosyne
@sparky:
So the extra funding for Medicaid that’s in the bill doesn’t really exist, is that your argument?
I would bring up the whole point again about most states having balanced budget amendments that mean they require extra federal help, which is in the bill, but I have a feeling you didn’t quite get it the first time.
kay
@sparky:
Read the bill. They can’t cut Medicaid past 133% of poverty level.
It’s in there. We had this fight, with stimulus.
I’m disappointed in liberals because it’s just such useless bullshit to make these specific projections on what the exchanges are going to look like, or how they will function. It’s bullshit when politicians do it, but I expected that. I expected better of non-politicians.
These specific numbers I read on the public option are just so much speculation, yet those numbers are the Holy Grail of Truth, while anything that comes out of the Obama Admin, are CYNICAL LIES.
For Jane Hamsher to make these rock-solid predictions on how regulation will play out is just fantasy. The truth is, no one knows. It will depend on the regulator, and the mechanism.
They’ve lost some credibility with me.
nepat
How do people like Cenk Uygur continue to get published?
Isn’t he the same clown who insisted Dana Milbank’s column on Rahm Emanuel was Emanuel’s “parting shot” at Obama? Rahm hasn’t parted but Cenk is still publishing. Go figure.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
If I understand the premise of this post, there is some sort of equivalence between “firebaggers” and people who vandalize, physically intimidate, scream “nigger” and “faggot” in public, and issue death threats. Thanks for the public service.
stuckinred
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.): you don’t obviously ,but great post.
Sly
@SGEW:
I remember when the 2003 tax cuts were promoted, and drug re-importation was shit-canned, over appeals to 9/11.
Offended? Yes. Surprised? Not at all.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@kay:
Reading the bill will not straighten out Sparky’s angle.
kay
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
The Medicaid issue is complicated, They set a floor. The floor may hurt those in states that offer more generous benefits, but will help those who in states that offer chintzy benefits.
But state-portion Medicaid funding is always at risk when the economy is bad. That’s just how it is. It’s not unique to this bill. They’re going to need more Medicaid providers. But they would have needed more Medicare providers.
kay
@sparky:
My larger point is this: if you’re going to game out how this health care refoem is going to play out, using language that implies certainty but can’t be that certain, then go all the way.
Game out Medicare for all, with a worsening economy (like you did with Medicaid). Game out the public option with a captured regulatory structure, like you do with the private plans. Why are you confident a public option would be regulated properly, if the regulatory system is broken? They’re going to take in premuims and pay out, and they’re going to have to break even. What if their expenses exceed intake? They’re going to try to game the regulator, to stay afloat. There’s nothing magically ethical about
public”.
You can’t do worst case one and best case the other.
And you can’t talk about the Big Problem. You’re trying to impose a non-profit payment mechanism on a FOR PROFIT industry. Health care is for profit. You never wrangled with that, and it has to be dealt with. You only looked at half the picture.
themann1086
@geemoney: I don’t recall the details, but in Bob Altemeyer’s The Authoritarians he briefly mentions Left-Wing Authoritarians. He says they represent such a small percentage of a population that they aren’t worth discussing in that book, which is primarily about Right Wing Authoritarians. Technically, hard-line Soviet sympathizers in Russia post-collapse are classified as RWAs. I’m not sure exactly what a LWA would look like; I’m kinda curious. Maybe someone who automatically rejects what someone in a position of authority says, regardless of its veracity?
Chuck Butcher
Regarding the rather overheated choice #1, I thought the consensus around here was that this was going to get fixing over time. So, now it is that Reconcilliation is it? Or there’s more?
I don’t mind celebrating…
Nathanael
That was very, very easy to guess.
The Firebagger is the “Perhaps there’s a cloud to the silver lining” type.
The teabagger is the “OMG TERRORISTS” one.
Panurge
Hey! Someone spelled “yea” correctly!
jawbone
I did not know fire could be bagged!
They’re sorcerers?