The last time I mentioned rescuing a dog a couple of you mentioned that Dobermans make great family pets. That sounded kind of fishy to me, but I’m a data-and-logic guy rather than an anecdote guy (everyone thinks their pet is adorable and harmless) so I looked it up.
The publication Animal People maintains what many regard as the most comprehensive table of dog breeds and serious attacks out there. According to their chart Dobermans have taken part in many fewer serious attacks than comparable dogs like Boxers and German Shepherds and even Labs (!), although Doberman attacks are more likely to be fatal. Attack numbers for Rottweilers and Pit Bulls were off the charts. The CDC report here puts Dobermans closer to the middle of medium-sized dogs, although I couldn’t tell whether the CDC’s attacks numbers included working dogs doing their job (Animal People excluded those).
So far “safe dog” and “maybe kind of dangerous” are tied at one each. The situation called for a tie-breaker, so I applied the Randall Munroe Google technique. Here are the number of Google hits for the search string “killed by a X” (with quotes), where ‘X’ is a breed of dog. Note that Dachshund numbers are almost certainly understated because nobody knows how to f*cking spell Dachshund.
Pit Bull: >5,000,000
German Shepherd: >4,000,000 (apparently Shepherds hate cats and rabbits)
Rottweiler: >750,000
Boxer: 130,000
Poodle: 78,000
Labrador: 73,000
Doberman: 10 (two actual incidents)
Dachshund: 4
Airedale: 1 (a duck)
QED? Discuss.
moe99
I have owned 4 dachshunds in my lifetime and if they can bark you to death, they will. Great snugglers!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Fuckin’ duck was asking for it, too.
Labradors are, IIRC, known for some officially named syndrome that makes dogs briefly but dangerously aggressive. It’s mentioned in Marley and Me, but I forget the name of it.
geg6
Dobermans are awesome dogs. I used to love them so much that, for a while in my early to mid-20s, I would only date guys with Dobies.
A Mom Anon
It’s more about the people in the dog’s life than the dog or breed of dog. Learn how to train and work with dogs in general,it takes lots of patience and a willingness to learn on your part.
My doggie is a Dobie/German Shep mix and I can see how easy it would be for her to be an undisiplined mess if I didn’t have a clue. It wouldn’t be her fault,it would be mine if she’s out of hand. Talk with some dog trainers,read up on canine behavior and then fall in love with the doggie of your choice.
liberty60
w-e-i-n-e-r d-o-g
You’re welcome
ericvsthem
Glad to see my favorite dog breed doing it’s part in keeping dangerous water fowl in check.
GeoX
My family had a Doberman when I was a kid. He was a totally sweet animal, and not at all aggressive–he was dead last in the pack order, behind us and our three labs. Occasionally when he wanted just to lie there and rest, and one of the other dogs tried to provoke him into playing, he would let out a truly ferocious-sounding roar, but he was all bark and no bite.
whiskey
my dog: a dumb dog
Jamey
I see Labradors at 78,000 and Poodles at 73,000. Does anyone have figures for Labradoodles?
John Cole
My uncle had a doberman and it was the sweetest dog I have ever known until Lily. Just a complete and total softie and was great with us kids.
Chris Gerrib
My uncle raises Dobermans. The key to them is understanding that either you own the dog or the dog owns you and acting accordingly.
SP
You’ve got to normalize all this data by the number of dogs out there. I had a rare dog that’s on the table for 1 fatality, but the rate per dog is probably higher that Dobies. Obviously labs are going to be high because there are so many of them. The AKC would have numbers of registered dogs which is probably a good estimate of ratios of total dogs.
Meanwhile, how many reports of “Cat ate its dead owner’s decomposing body” are there?
Ed Drone
@moe99:
Now, dachshunds are dangerous — if you’re a badger! They were bred for hunting badgers, and their characteristics, from the long snout (for grabbing the thick-skinned prey without getting smothered) to the long body (for navigating the tunnels of a badger den).
Ed
[Dept. of nearly-useless knowledge]
jncc
You have to keep in mind that people are more likely to try to train pit bulls to be fighting dogs than other breeds, so it’s not surprising that they account for more killings. Nobody trains a lab to be a fighting dog.
That said, the key thing is to get either a well-trained and well socialized dog, or get a puppy and train it and socialize it yourself. Like any breed, pit bulls can be wonderful, affectionate dogs.
Finally, although they don’t show up as deaths, some breeds are notorious for being snappy such as dachshunds, cocker spaniels, etc. They won’t kill you, but they may bite you. Again, it all comes down to socialization.
kezboard
I submit that “killed by a beagle” also has only one hit, and it’s someone attempting to make the case that pit bulls are more dangerous than other dogs by rhetorically asking “When was the last time you ever heard of anyone killed by a beagle?”
El Tiburon
Let me say I partially live w/ a Pit-bull, her female owner and her 8-mos old daughter.
I can say unequivocally that pit-bull is the sweetest, most even-tempered pet I’ve ever been in contact with. The baby basically treats that dog like a blanket and crawls all over her and the dog is as submissive as can be.
I didn’t read all the fine print in this list, but I think one has to take into account the owner of the animals, natch. My guess is most of those pit-bull attacks come from pit-bulls who have been raised by mostly asshole owners to be aggressive dogs.
Of course even the most well-behaved animal can lash out, and a pit-bull lashing out is a bit more dangerous than a poodle.
kezboard
I submit that “killed by a beagle” also has only one hit, and it’s someone attempting to make the case that pit bulls are more dangerous than other dogs by rhetorically asking “When was the last time you ever heard of anyone killed by a beagle?”
CatStaff
Cats wouldn’t bother to kill you outright. They’d just ignore you until you died of low self-esteem.
Martin
@Jamey: The statistician in me says 75,500 labradoodle attacks.
And my corgi doesn’t even appear on the list. No attacks? Wouldn’t surprise me. I credit the Queen. Corgi’s know that such an act would be undignified.
Matt
I would add that Pit Bull incidences are overstated because, unlike the other breeds, the label of pit bull encompasses a huge range of pit-mixes. Also, I don’t have evidence to support this, but many pit defenders claim that many dogs incorrectly get labeled as pit bulls because of their reputation, which perpetuates the stereotype.
GReynoldsCT00
When I was growing up, one neighbor’s dachsund almost killed another neighbor’s standard poodle. I agree with Mom Anon, being a responsible pet owner is key (the owners of the dachsund, were not, their dogs were always roaming the neighborhood).
joes527
As an avid hiker, I’ve learned to be _much_ more wary small breed dogs than large breed dogs.
I don’t know if the difference is that large dogs don’t feel a need to prove anything, or if large breed dog owners just take their dogs more seriously, but it has been my general experience that if you don’t mess with a large breed dog, they won’t mess with you. (yes, this is a series of anecdotes, not data)
You need to really keep your eye the small breed dogs.
WereBear
Dobes were designed by Louis Doberman for personal protection (he was a rural tax collector.) As such, they needed sensitivity and good judgment to do their job well.
Pit bulls were developed in bear/bull baiting, to hang on until something died.
@A Mom Anon: So A Mom Anon is absolutely right; it really all depends on which breeds a certain kind of troglodyte human considers scary and intimidating, and then mistreating the dog so they will attack humans.
When I got my malamute mix, I also had ten cats, and everyone told me the dog would kill my cats. But he became buddies with them instead.
Because I actually trained my dog.
gbear
Well we do know that one of the Dachshund victims was Marie Provost. “That hungry little Dachshund!”
joes527
@El Tiburon:
I can’t say that that is a good idea, but would have to add, every rottweiler I have ever known is the same. Clam and gentle as a lamb.
Good thing too, because if they changed their mind they would have my arm off in a jiffy.
I think that respect is the key here and I’m not sure letting the baby crawl all over the dog shows respect for what would happen if the dog did something surprising.
Liz
Any dog can be dangerous, even with the right training and handling. I have two corgis (yes DEADLY I know) and I tell my kids all the time not get near their faces when they’re eating or playing…one bite can change a life. Dogs are animals. Everyone needs to remember that, even with the most lovable cuddly dog ever.
Also lol on the dachsund barking…soooooooo true!!
Byrd
A lot of it would seem to be a self – fulfilling prophecy. Rotties and Pitts are known for being “dangerous” so people buy them to use them as a deterrent (guard dogs) or the people themselves are generally dangerous as well (actually dangerous drug dealers can be just as dangerous as those who just think they are). Also – Labs are big dogs. More often than not, bites occur because the human is apprehensive and the dog becomes apprehensive and scared as a result.
Kineslaw
I was working in the ER one night when a guy came in because his Doberman had just bitten part of his ear off. He said she was normally the sweetest dog, but she got scared from some thunder.
A plastic surgeon worked on his ear, but the guy’s ear was deformed for life.
The plural of anecdote is not data, but I’ll never own a Doberman after that.
scav
Query. Could we nominate GoogleHits for a really top-notch random number generator? Yes, it’s rhetorical.
Blue Neponset
@WereBear: What did you do to train your dog not to eat the cats. We have a Lab and, God Bless his heart, he hates our two cats. (He also has killed a bunny rabbit). We are a bit worried he is going to give one of the cats the same treatment.
Randy P
@gbear: As a kid we had a Doberman who I don’t think was pure bred. He was very small for a Dobie. He was just a family pet, not trained in any way to be aggressive, and he was a real sweetie to family. But he did have a tendency to bark and growl at visitors, which created some difficulties when my siblings and I started to bring home boyfriends/girlfriends. Totally instinctive. Apparently he looked convincingly full-sized and Dobermanish while doing so, too.
I guess the lesson is that behavior among family isn’t necessarily a clue.
Or even among strangers. There is an Akita on our block who apparently really hates other dogs. All other dogs. My first encounter with this dog was when it came dashing unprovoked out of its backyard to roll over my poor Lab and give her a few bites on the back that required stitches. My second encounter was in the owners’ home. They were perfectly nice about covering the vet bills, and the dog was perfectly nice too, happy to make friends and be petted. No clue this was an aggressive dog.
About pit bulls. I heard this issue being discussed on our local NPR station (WHYY Philly) last week after a fatal attack. One of the guests was saying that the overwhelming majority of dogs classified as “pit bulls” in these attack statistics turn out not to be, genetically, of the breed known as Pit Bull. It’s being used as a catchall category.
WereBear
@joes527: Yes, I noticed that when I had a paper route as a kid.
For one thing, nobody bred huge dogs to be bundles of neurotic nerves. Small breeds get away with it because people tend to just stick them away somewhere when they are snappy and obnoxious.
Big dogs were designed to be working dogs with brains.
protected static
I just want to know who thought that a pug/Rottweiler mix was a good idea…
scav
@WereBear: huh? There are no small working dogs? And I’ve met some bred for small braincase show dogs that were more than knee-high.
Taterstick
Well, my German Shepherd weighs in at 98.2 pounds (as of last week.) He has been trained to be a big softy when it comes to kids and other animals. He came face to face with a cat for the first time a few months ago, and when the damn thing hissed at him he all but peed himself.
However, the pizza delivery guy who knocked on our door by mistake late one night last week probably has not stopped running.
It’s all in knowing the dog and training it accordingly!
Gina
I’m a Rottie mom myself, and I definitely do NOT recommend them for inexperienced dog owners. I had beagles, a dachshund and golden retrievers growing up. The dachshund was an intact male, and yeah, he was a hard dog – he bit my aunt, he’d go for anyone trying to get him off his favorite chair. This was not a breed for my family, because my parents didn’t bother to do any sort of training at all, so he just decided what he wanted was the law.
The beagles were pretty mild mannered, and the goldens were the easiest – really super concerned about pleasing *everyone*, so for owners like my parents who don’t train at all formally, it worked out okay.
I got my first Rottie as an adult, I was living in a “transitional” Brooklyn neighborhood and wanted a big dog to take to Prospect Park, go on the trails, and to be able to walk at night without getting too much hassle from local knuckleheads. I considered German Shepherd Dogs, but decided they’d be too barky and high energy for apartment life, and I’d always admired Rotties from afar (after seeing them as a kid in “The Omen” movie). So, I got a puppy. When she growled aggressively at a limping Corgi at our first vet visit, I hit the dog training books at the lovely Brooklyn Public Library and went to work. She was a hard dog, but also very loving and wonderful – I’ve been a Rottie-exclusive person ever since.
You *have* to learn all about how they read you, and you *have* to stay on top of everything, all the time. For my personality, they’ve worked extremely well – they’re smart, but they will test you frequently, to see if you’re qualified to be making decisions – keeps you on your toes. I love that, but it’s definitely not for everyone.
Pit Bulls are more malleable, which I hypothesize is the reason we see so many used for fighting – Rotties I’ve seen trained to be that aggressive have turned on their owner at some point. Pitties seem to be much more a follower type personality, but with heavy biting power and strength. In the hands of a bad guy, they make a formidable weapon. Rotties are extremely loyal, but you as owner earn that much more dearly than with Pitties I’ve seen. BUT, mileage may vary, this is just my experience.
maya
I have had Labs and presently have an American Bull Terrier, [aka, pit bull] rescue. All are great dogs.
I suspect that the biggest reason Labs are high on the list of recorded bites is because they are extremely popular with families with kids. I often saw it in my lab that when playing with children, which he loved to do, the kids sometimes ramped up the playing – tug-o-war, for example, and Skip would start to get very exited. I immediately stepped in to calm him and the kids down. He never bit anyone but I could see where he might have if a kid’s finger or hand got in the way of over-excited play.
My neutered pit bull is just a big creme puff. He rarely even barks and never at any person. Some watchdog.
Mary
Oh man – dog bite statistics by breed. Where to begin? I’ll just point out that the “reports” are based on press accounts, and let everyone here use their well-honed cynicism regarding all things traditional media related to figure out the rest.
Anyway, Dobermans are great. And like any large working breed, the dogs themselves are individuals. So it’s much more important to choose a dog whose temperament is already established than it is to pick any dog so long as its of your chosen breed. Go find a reputable rescue that uses a foster care system. That way you have a dog that has lived with humans and humans who can tell you all about the dog’s personality.
Randy P
@Kineslaw: I don’t know how much you can generalize to all dogs of any breed. One of our dogs, a shelter adoption and a real gentle and intelligent animal, had certain aggression we just could not train out of him. Some dogs will let you take things out of their mouth. Not this guy. When he was eating something he really liked, he would growl if you got near his mouth at all.
One time there was an incident where my wife ended up tripping over him, hurting him and he instinctively in the confusion sort of snapped the jaws at her. She has described how he immediately went into full abject submission mode, totally appalled at his own behavior. On the back, quivering, throat exposed. “Kill me now, I’m a BAD DOG.”
I guess I’m saying that with any dog or any animal, the wires can get crossed sometimes. It isn’t breed-specific.
Hasn’t that terrible incident with Siegfried and Roy and the tiger act been attributed (by Roy) to the tiger panicking and just doing what it thought best to protect both itself and Roy?
http://cats.about.com/cs/bigcats/a/white_tiger_2.htm
shaun
Statistics aside, rescue dobermans are problematic unless an adopting family is quite certain that the previous owners weren’t closet Nazis.
Bruce Webb
Well in my experience the issue with Dobies is territoriality. Yes they’ll protect your kids and tolerate all kinds of indignities from them, but maybe won’t play so nice with strangers who they perceive as a threat.
Are you in the pack? Or outside? Whether dog or person your safety depends on that answer. There is nothing at all surprising about a dog that will be at one and the same time a co-parent to a litter of kittens and a cat killer, dogs by nature have a strong sense of “ours”.
(BTW you can retire that Google search technique, it fatally confuses “reports of” and “references to” with “incidents”, it gives you probably a rough correlation of deaths by breed while wildly inflating magnitudes)
dopealope
Doberman viciously attacking an innocent German Shepherd:
That’s my German Shepherd, Keiko, and my parent’s Doberman, Gretchen. They are best friends and play like this for hours, mostly digging holes and fighting over who gets to sit in them.
Comrade E.B. Misfit
My family had a large German Shepard. He never bit anyone. But he could put on a convincing act of fierceness and, if he saw that someone was buying his act, he put his heart into the routine.
In a neighborhood that was, for a time, plagued by daytime burglars, we never were robbed.
Richard R
The biggest threat from my friend’s Doberman is drowning from being licked to death. Unless you attack the owner – then you are hamburger.
Great dog, smarter than most people.
Loneoak
@Matt:
That’s exactly what I wanted to say. My huge mutt is obviously half pit bull, and then half some ambiguous combination of lab, shepherd, or chow. If she ever bit someone she would be classed as a pit, not those other things.
Pit bulls are the only dog ever bred to NOT attack humans. Dogs that are fighting something tend to lash out at everything around them—that’s why the professionals tell you not to try to break up a dog fight with your arms/hands/face. Pit bulls that even nipped at their owners would culled because they could not be trusted in the context of a fight not to lash out at the people trying to control or end the fight. The Brits call them nanny dogs because they trust their children with them.
So why are pit bulls and pit bull mixes so dominant in the attack rankings? Because they are also dominant in the abuse rankings. They get treated like shit. Their owners have no sense of how to raise a dog or are raising them for fighting (same thing, really).
Randy P
@Blue Neponset: We did standard acclimating stuff, but our late black lab never stopped chasing the cats. My theory was that it was just pure fun for her, she liked making them run. Our one old tom would try to ignore her and only absolutely budge when he couldn’t stand it any more.
She loved chasing squirrels too, and the one time she actually caught one (it got slowed down in deep snow and she basically fell over it) all she did was let it go again.
jenniebee
@kezboard: That number would probably be much higher if more people kept pet squirrels in their yards. I know my a-beagle-jumped-a-fence-and-now-I-have-a-beagle-mix-who’s-a-good-jumper is positively wild about chasing squirrels.
gbear
@El Tiburon:
Three weeks ago a Husky jumped up on the bed and killed an 11-week old baby in a Minneapolis suburb. Very sad story.
Mattski
@joes527:
It’s a matter of training the dog. When a small dog jumps on a person and mouths a person it’s cute. When a large dog does it, it’s quite frightening. Hence A large dog owner is more apt to train their dog properly.
Cat
“Good family pet” means it won’t eat your kids, but everyone else’s kids are fair game. :)
We own boxers and they turn on a dime the minute they feel someone is threatening my wife.
I’m also the survivor of a German Sheppard, not our pet, attack as a child and still think they are wonderful dogs.
Dogs have individual personalities just like people and a bad incident with one member of their bred doesn’t make the whole bred bad.
A lot of the problems with bad behavior in dogs, IMHO, is their personality doesn’t fit with the personality of the owners. Its like a bad marriage, only the dogs can’t divorce their owners. You’d be cranky in their shoes too.
Roger Moore
@SP:
Very few, I’m sure. Cats are notoriously finicky eaters, and they definitely prefer freshly killed animals. They might eat the scavengers that came to eat their owner’s decomposing body, but they’d turn up their noses at eating the body themselves.
dopealope
Here’s the picture that was supposed to be in the last comment:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dopealope/367651491/in/set-72157594496994793/
Roger Moore
@WereBear:
Or working dogs without brains, in the case of sight hounds.
Brachiator
@A Mom Anon:
I suppose this is largely true, but you have to allow some margin for error with some dogs. Sometimes dogs act on instinct, which is entirely consistent with their behavior, but still with tragic results for a human.
For example:
That a dog is a sweetheart with the owner is no guarantee that the dog will be similarly well-tempered with respect to other family members, let alone strangers.
Then there is the sad case of the guy from the TV show, Ax Men, whose 4 year old daughter was killed by the family Rottweiler, in a household where another Rot had to be removed some months previously because it had gotten “too aggressive.”
A Chihuahua might get as aggressive as a larger dog, but is less likely to be able to kill an adult or child with a single throat bite.
That said, to always push an issue of an animal’s behavior to training is as reductive to automatically assigning the fault in a plane crash to pilot error.
licensed to kill time
I don’t really want to enter the dog breed wars, just say that the number one ingredient in a good dog or bad dog is their human.
Beauzeaux
No xoloitzcuintlis? That’s a relief!
Max
Get a Wheaten! (or an Airedale)… unless you have cats, in which case, maybe not.
Terriers rock hard!
WereBear
@Blue Neponset: Here it is, in a nutshell:
I got him at four months old, and kept him on a leash at all times while he learned preliminary things. This sped up the necessary message (I am Alpha Female.)
I told him the cats were his friends and he had to protect them. (He loved security work.)
He was a dog with focus. (Malamutes were the utility dogs of the Inuit; they babysat, guarded the camp, and kept the sleds off dangerous ground. A malamute team leader would routinely override the human driving the sled. And were supposed to.)
I bring up the focus point because some dogs are far better at this than others. Roscoe’s “job” was to monitor events and make decisions about them, and this matched the genetics he’d gotten for that purpose.
Labs, on the other hand, are big goofballs. Focus might not be one of their strong points.
Dino
I’ve known two Dobermans. One was a male and was extremely aggressive as a puppy. Eventually he was put down.
The other was a female and she was the sweetest dog I have ever met outside of a golden retriever.
As other commentators have noted, it depends on the owner’s training.
Dogs with aggressive reputations yet are personally sweet are the best combination. IMHO. Especially if you live in a neighborhood where security is a factor. Females, in my experience are easier to deal with so long as you neuter them.
Mutts are the best. Trainers say mutts are easiest to train. Think Benji. Get a dog that looks like a pure breed but actually has some impure blood, it improves their disposition.
Tom Levenson
@CatStaff: Word.
kindness
Been around dogs my whole life. The only dog I’ve ever been bit by was a Dobie. He was my room-mates dog as a hand me down from his folks. He was sweet and mental & we had him for about two weeks till he used my wrist as a chew toy one night. He was gone the next day. Seems he had done that before which was why he was a hand me down dog. I never liked my old room mates parents after that. It wasn’t long before I had a new room mate for that matter.
One of my current dogs is a Shepard/Rottweiler mix & he’s the sweetest dog ever. Loves everybody and every other dog he’s ever met. But I am a mutt person. Easier all the way around. Better genetics too.
Martin
@Taterstick: Our corgi has decided to be an alert dog, letting us know any time someone has crossed the arbitrary rubicon of the front sidewalk. It starts off slow, but if they get within 10 feet of the front door, it turns into a proper bark, and if the doorbell should ring, a cacophony of full-throated ‘SOMEONE IS AT MY FUCKING DOOR!’. Corgis have surprisingly deep and loud barks, and the reaction of the person at the door, seeing it’s this short, goofy looking dog is usually pretty humorous, especially as he come sniffing for food with tail in full swing and then flops over for the hopeful belly rub.
WereBear
@Randy P: Yes, exactly. I’d read for years how Siegfried & Roy trained their big cats for the act, and it was with love and positive reinforcement, just as they should be.
So when I heard the first garbled accounts of what had happened, I said that when it was all sorted out, the tiger was trying to protect their person. And that was how it turned out.
drunken hausfrau
There were two pugs, recently, who ate their decomposing dead owner… I have a pug. Not worried that he will kill me, but know that he would happily eat me, if I don’t feed him and am lying prone… Also, he actually DOES attack motorcycles and very large tractors/diggers. Never people. Just large noisy machines.
Tsulagi
@A Mom Anon:
I’d go with that. A whackjob could probably turn a poodle into a leg humping crazed killer.
Best dog ever to walk on the planet was our German Shepherd/Lab mixed mutt. Loved the family. When you would come home, he’d whine a little until you bent down or got on the floor so he could rub his head against yours and give you a lick if you let him. Loved to play.
Very protective of the family. If he didn’t know you and you came on the property while he was outside, he would block you. Try to go past him and you would be met by psychodog. Eyes would bug out, all teeth would be visible, foam-like drool, and a low growl and look like he was planning to eat your throat. Probably was. Any of us tell him it was okay, the tail would wag and he’d lick your hand sort of like an apology for his manners.
But you could confidently take him out in public. Never had a problem; he took his cues from you. If you were relaxed while talking with a stranger, he sure wouldn’t mind the stranger petting him or rubbing his ears. Tail would wag. He was the best. Really miss that guy.
Punchy
Christ, Timmah, have you learned NOTHING from this blog? How dare you imply pits are dangerous! They’re, like, as safe as blankets and giant Legos and ponies and stuff. Or at least that’s what people scream, every time someone tries to point out the data that screams otherwise.
Chuck
I feel like I narrowly escaped death from stress-induced coronary at the paws of my brother’s Great Pyrenees.
Bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark.
Eat.
bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark.
Eat.
bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark …etc…
ajr22
My best friend had two dobermans, and they were amazing dogs. Probably the best trained, and behaved dogs i have ever seen. Never saw them act aggressive towards anyone. They were friendly and fun. Really just great dogs.
Rommie
My aunt had a Doberman in my 8-16 age, and he was a big softie around the family, and strangers indoors, like with family gatherings at Xmas.
He was also quick to bark and charge at strangers near or in the yard, so he definitely had territorial instincts. He wouldn’t go after cats or birds or critters, just people.
He’d also get picked on by Blue Jays, but I think that’s just the Jays being especially obnoxious in my neighborhood, maybe because the cats would leave them alone with so many fat Robins around. But the birds chasing this large dog around was always funny to watch.
fraught
Are there any statistics for attacks by King Charles Cavaliers?
Lap attacks are very rare.
Foxhunter
Anyone here ever owned a Chesapeake? After 14 glorious years, our Bassett died of the ‘Big C’. Wife and I are looking for a dog that matches our active lifestyle; running , water, dog parks, etc. A ‘hop in the truck’ let’s go kind of family member. Know that there is a marked difference in breed and our expectations will adjust accordingly.
Just looking for any non-science based anecdotes to reinforce my position in this battle. LOL.
Oh, and must love kids.
cmorenc
POODLE attacks? What do they attack you with – insults on your fashion sensibilities?
Grumpy Code Monkey
IME, pit and rottie agression towards humans is an issue of training (or lack of) by meathead owners, not breeding. Agressive pits and rotties are more dangerous than other breeds by virtue of their size and strength, but I’m not convinced pits and rotties are inherently more agressive towards people than other breeds.
Pit agression towards other dogs is definitely a result of breeding, however; I’d be interested to see how many of those pit bites were sustained by people trying to pull an agressive pit off of their pet. Our dog was attacked by a neighborhood pit while we were out walking, and the pit pretty much ignored me until I tried to pull it off my dog.
All the Dobies I’ve met to this point were sweet, affectionate dogs, but that’s admittedly not a huge sample.
MikeJ
It’s not just frightening, it’s dangerous. On the trails I hike several times a week, there are always idiots with their dogs off leash. Every single person says, “Oh, he’s a big sweetie” or “he’d never hurt anyone”. I’ve been bit three times by animals these morons refuse to control.
And of course they think that since there is a tree visible, they’re off deep in the wilderness and don’t need to pick up their dog’s shit. The first quarter mile of the trail is disgusting.
It’s a pity there’s so many stupid people
that own dogs.Dork
I just cant figure out why so many people own German Shepards. Who the fuck has so many sheep that they need sheparding, and why are the Germans so seemingly gifted in this occupation?
And where does he/she live? In the basement, with his staff and robe?
WereBear
Speaking of dog attacks, Roscoe the Malmute mix did bite a UPS driver. So he said. All I knew was, the guy yanked open the screen door and tried to come in before I said he could.
If Roscoe nipped him, the dog was only doing his job.
So then the driver made a claim against our homeowner’s insurance, and the investigator came to our house, got greeted by Roscoe, petted his head as she sat down, and fussed over him.
Then she asked, “So where’s the biting dog?” and it was my pleasure to tell her he was right there.
Best. Dang. Dog. Ever.
Svensker
My husband and I went for a stroll in the PA countryside once, with our 13-year-old son back in the motel. A German shepherd spotted us, decided we were up to no good and started stalking us. We realized that there was no help available and no way to stop the dog when he made his attack. Judging by the dog’s intensity and the hair standing up on his back, he was about to come at us. The only thing we could think to do was let my husband go down under the attack while I ran like hell back to our kid. (It’s so fun being a responsible parent.) Just as we’d made that decision the farmer came out, saw what was happening and called off the dog.
I’ve been involved in a knife fight with a mugger, jumped out of an airplane, and had a guy with a gun come through my bedroom window, but I have never been as terrified as I was on that pretty country road with a large carnivore stalking me intently. My husband was even more terrified, since he’d made the decision to sacrifice himself for his family.
Razor Eddie
This weekend I adopted my second Cane Corso Mastiff, and they are great family dogs.
We have 10 y/o twins with disabilities, and couldn’t be happier with the way the dogs are with them.
The rescue society has been outstanding to deal with (although they are picky) and we’ve gotten two of the most easily trained dogs I’ve ever owned.
They’re quiet, mellow, couch potatos.
Tom Levenson
Long history w. various dogs here. Worst ever — a rescue puppy, complete mutt, from the Hong Kong puppy-as-Sunday-lunch outdoor market that my older brother and sister couldn’t resist taking home. Domesticating an animal raised for food is difficult and not recommended. Smee (as in “Revenge, Smee!”) came back w. us to the States and was on the verge of being put down when he leapt the fence and was never seen again.
A standard poodle who had been a reasonably pleasant dog most of his life turned very mean at about nine years old, snapping at kids (me) and becoming increasingly less amenable to leashing and that kind of thing. This one was given away to someone with a lot of land when I was about four, so I have only bare memories, but he was a very scary dog to that little guy.
A lab-golden cross (Brandy) was mostly just dumb…I mean bricks for brains stupid.
And then there was Blaze, a purebred golden with show-champion pedigree that we got cheap because she had too much white for the ring. She was smart, wonderful with just about everyone, loud when strangers came to the door, and a wonderful mother to the puppies my mother evoked in a breeding program that involved crossing her with a field-champion stud. I grew up with here and her gorgeous, goofy son Curry (no mental giant he) and Blaze’s puppies became prized by folks who wanted a working (hunting) golden as opposed to a lawn decoration.
And yes — training and real devotion/affection always helped.
I’m almost exclusively cat oriented now, though, partly because I travel too much to be fair to a dog, and partly because my son, now nine, was absolutely terrified by a lab when he was about two. The lab was as sweet as a dog could be…but his idiot owner let that sixty pound animal off a leash and, apparently, beyond voice command, in a playground full of twenty to thirty pound toddlers and little kids, whom that kind dog saw as playmates. He bounded across the field; my son saw this giant yellow head full of jaws coming straight at him; and he ran.
Predictable results. The lab saw this as a great game, jumped my kid just as the he reached his daycare teacher, he fell over, the lab was ecstatic, no harm was done…except that my son will now tolerate only dogs “smaller than a duck.”
The moral: moronic owners can turn even the most saintly of dogs into ravening beasts (at least as perceived by a kid who now won’t tolerate the idea of puppy).
4tehlulz
Inflated number is inflated.
What’s the number when you take dogfighting out the equation?
John
Wouldn’t you need to divide the number of attacks by the number of dogs of that breed? There’s obviously a lot more labs out there than dobermans, right?
Woodrowfan
Terriers are smart enough to make it look like an accident, hence their low numbers…
eyelessgame
The tragedy of pit bulls and Rottweillers, as the link Tim gives makes clear, is that in both cases the dogs are sweet, even-tempered, gentle… until suddenly, with no warning, they’re not. That’s why it’s so unbelievable to any owner of those dogs that their dog could be a danger to anyone. It’s specifically because, unlike most dog breeds, Rotts and pits don’t give warning signals when they’re upset (which is why they always act so sweet!) until they reach the point where they break. And if they never happen to reach that breaking point, they stay sweet all their lives.
But that’s not a matter of ‘training’ or abuse of the dog that makes it snap. It’s that the breed doesn’t get upset, which means if you’re doing something it doesn’t like, it won’t tell you.
Mary
@Dork: Snerk.
protected static
@Roger Moore: It’s pretty common, actually. Meat is meat, and cats & dogs aren’t exactly what you’d call sentimental…
dana
Surely you also need to know the number of dogs owned, as others have mentioned. If there are 101 lab attacks but ten million owned, and 100 doberman attacks but 1000 owned, the lab is in general a safer animal.
There’s also the question of how much tolerance there is in a breed. With perfect training almost any dog can be a good pet; any dog can become vicious with mistreatment. The question is what kind of animal typical less-than-perfect training will yield, and this is an important consideration w.r.t. rescue animals and novice owners.
Joel
@Cat: I was attacked by a Great Dane as a kid. I was terrified of dogs for the longest time. Don’t think I’ll ever own one, but it’s mostly a hygiene thing now.
GReynoldsCT00
@cmorenc:
No, with their sharp teeth… my first bad dog experience as a kid was with a miniature poodle. Nasty little dog. Puff-Puff. HA!
trav
I own a Rescue/boarding facility in Colorado. We have about 20 pit bulls here rescued from various bad situations. In my expierence, the pits are no more agressive than any other breed. The problem is that when a beagle or cow dog loses it’s temper its no big deal. When a Pit Bull loses control, very bad things can happen and even a minor argument between dogs can be bloody. That said, I have never, not for an instant of six years, felt threatened by any of the pits. I would adopt one without a second thought as long as it fit into the family dynamic.
On a different note, this weeks Onion had two good Pit Bull related headlines;
HEROIC PIT BULL TRAVELS 2000 MILES TO ATTACK OWNER
and
LAST PERSON ON EARTH WHO SHOULD OWN A PIT BULL GETS ANOTHER ONE.
Apologies to the Onion if I screwed up those headlines.
MikeJ
Obligatory Nick Lowe link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLSGmeNfxkA
MattR
Anyone else had problems with a dog who was a painful licker? I know this sounds weird, but my friend had an adorable and friendly bijon. The only problem was that during the summer he would get very excited when you arrived and would start licking your legs. There was something about his licking that caused him to catch on to leg hair and pull at it. The only ways to avoid it were to wear pants all year long, to jump straight into the pool or to drop to your knees and take the licking on the arms and face (which for whatever reason involved no pain).
WereBear
@Foxhunter: Chessies are marvelous dogs, but they are known for being strong-willed.
I know, Bassets are stubborn, but they’re not in a high-energy package.
Liz
@Martin:
our corgis are like that too. One is mixed breed cardi (with a Jack russell perhaps?) and he kind of howls too, if he’s really excited. Plus he pisses my little pem off because he can actually REACH the chair to jump on it. Nicest little things once you get in the house-but if the burglar decides to advance in the dark of night despite the vicious barking, we’re screwed.
And as for small working dogs…that’s exactly what corgis are-herd dogs. And damn good ones, I’ll add. :-)
Capri
Thank you @eyelessgame, that’s exactly the point I would have made if you hadn’t beaten me to it.
For all the folks out there who think that you can train a dog to behave differently than the way it has been bred for years and years –
Try to train a Labrador Retriever not to chase a ball. Then get back to me about how easy it is to prevent aggression in pit bulls and Rotweilers.
protected static
@Tom Levenson:
Heh. We spent a summer vacation on the Oregon coast a few years back, and our then-6-year-old son was running up and down the beach with our then-9-year-old Lab/pit cross. She was really getting into the game, and she deliberately hip-checked him like she would have another dog. She looked over at him, and with that big goofy Lab/pit grin on her face smacked him as hard as she could. Boom! Sand and tears everywhere…
She was instantly chagrined, and acted as though she expected us to eat her. Once we knew the boy was okay, it was hard not to laugh. Fortunately, lasting scars were left on neither boy nor dog.
Nicole
Um, for the record, ponies are assholes.
Barbara
Re: corgis. I have had three corgis. One was dominant but not aggressive and the other is so aggressive he is going to a dog psychologist next week. I know he has a dominance issue because he is totally obedient when my husband is around but is extremely territorial when he is not. Not good. Corgis are alpha dogs, please don’t recommend corgis as a non-threatening pet to families with children unless they really know how to handle dogs.
bemused
I just read again the James Herriot book series. One couple had a pair of nasty, snarling, biting little dogs. He hated calls to that house. The couple was all goo goo over their dogs & never set any limits whatsoever for them. Those dogs eventually died & the couple got another pair of little dogs. As puppies they were sweet & affectionate. When they were grown, Herriot was called to treat the dogs & they had become clones of the previous pair, vicious & psycho, while the couple cooed to them.
Good parenting counts, human or furry children.
satby
@Loneoak: Along with what Loneoak said:
Pits and pit mixes have strong prey instincts. They can be sweet and safe to the family cat, but a neighbor’s cat may often look like something to chase and kill. The google search turned up other animal fatalities, not just human ones.
I think it’s a myth that breed determines temperment. It determines tendancies, the rest is up to environmental and training influences. All dogs can bite, and under the right circumstances will, so that needs to be respected.
+ 3 labs, 1lab-shep mix, 1 lab-pit mix
licensed to kill time
@bemused:
I love James Herriot.
One of the things that strikes me when I watch Cesar Milan interact with crazy little dogs and their people is how those people seem to be almost proud of what their crazy ass little dogs do. And also love to exclaim about how helpless they are to control them.
It’s like they use the dogs to express hostility and aggression for them. Sneaky humans.
joes527
@John:
OK
“pit bull”: 4,610,000 Results
“killed by a pit bull”: 5,210,000 Results
Therefore the likelihood that you are going to be killed by a pit bull is about 113%
Google math!
WereBear
@bemused: Well, that was the point of my comment about the big working dogs.
People don’t get the big breeds to coo over and spoil rotten, because you just can’t.
In fact, if you want to spoil your pet rotten, get a cat. Cats loooooooooooooooove spoiling, and become more affectionate and sweet natured because of it.
Whereas most people don’t know how to spoil a dog properly, and the dog can get neurotic and troublesome because of it.
Mary
@MattR: One of my dogs has a very raspy tongue – almost like a cats. And she LOOOVES to lick. It can be quite painful.
Karen
@ Taterstick #35
I have a female G.S. we rescued when she was 8 months. She was never socialized by the people who had her, and she had been beaten, badly. She’s now 5. We limit the numbers of people she’s exposed to at one time, just for safety. We occassionally have a 5 year old little girl who visits. She is one Loki likes. The kid can rub on her, pet on her & slip her chips while we aren’t looking. The dumb dog plays with my 14 year old cat, even if the cat does use her claws. But when a stranger comes to the door, the people across the street & 2 houses up hear her barking. Strangers don’t seem to stay at the door long when they see the black muzzle & all those teeth. Watching them try to get off the porch backwards & in a hurry can be the highlight of the day. I would have kids around a German Shepherd anytime, simply because that breed is so protective.
But they are dogs & have to be considered as such. We take plenty of precautions with her & we’ve never had a bite case to deal with.
bemused
@licensed to kill time:
The funniest part of the story was that one of the psycho dogs bit his owner who reacted as if he would have liked to choke the dog on the spot.
Some people are just clueless. They have no idea that kids & dogs need to know who is the boss in the house or how to set limits. Cats, bless them, just pretend to obey you on rare occasion.
Corner Stone
All I can say is I have never decided to leave a recreational park because a beagle showed up.
satby
@eyelessgame:
OK, that’s just stupid. Maybe you can’t distinguish the clues; but anyone familiar with a dog can figure out whether it’s getting too excited or upset. That people don’t pay attention or ignore the warning signs isn’t the dog’s fault.
The “pits are good/evil” debate has become like a religious debate. It will never be resolved, and like the Bible, everyone can find something to support their side of the argument.
maye
I rescued a 4 year old female Doberman who lived to be 13. Best dog I ever had. Sweetest temperament. Very mellow personality. Had her three years when my baby was born. No problems at all with her and my son.
Hob
@Taterstick: One of the funniest things I’ve ever seen was when my shepherd found himself face to face with the next-door cat. Whenever the cat was on the fence he’d bark at it as if he fully intended to rip it into little pieces. But one day it got onto our porch and fell asleep in a milk crate, and neither the dog nor the cat realized that they were right next to each other until the cat woke up and they both freaked out. They were both so scared that they fled down the stairs without looking, and didn’t realize that they were actually running side by side until they both reached the landing, did a double-take and managed to flee in different directions.
MikeJ
@Corner Stone:Only when Sullivan was walking one.
PurpleGirl
Roger Moore @ 53″
I always maintained that one of the greyhounds my friends had had no brain. Her skull was small and it sounded hollow to me. She slept a lot and lounged when she wasn’t actually sleeping. She was also a slut, kissing up to anyone for pets.
Jamey
Martin:
Or it could be 151k–an aggregate of both dogs’ most aggressive tendencies.
All depends on whether you believe that using SPF 15 sunscreen over SPF 30 sunscreen makes the total SPF from both 45,or whether watering down SPF 30 with SPF 15 makes the SPF 22.5 …
Foxhunter
@WereBear:
That seems to be one of the overriding messages of the book ‘Water Dogs’. An old text on retriever training, those dogs want to please and postive reinforcement + structure is all the spoiling most dogs seems to need.
WB – I’ve had many folks tell me to stay away from one large breed or another because they are too territorial or not stranger-friendly. If I hear, ‘Get a lab’ one more time, I am going to get a cat.
If I compiled all of the advice I’ve received on what type of dog to get, we’d never own another. Everyone seems to fall on one side or the other for every.stinking.breed.
licensed to kill time
@bemused:
See, there you go! Misdirected anger, owner really wishes he could be as aggro and nasty as widdle lambkins.
Dogs, being pack animals, look for a leader. If their owner abdicates that position they are more than willing to fill it themselves since someone has to, in their minds.
MBL
I learned to walk by grabbing my parents’ Doberman anytime he happened to walk by and using his legs and, eventually, the skin on his sides to haul myself to a standing position. Damn dog would stand there stock-still until I’d gotten where I wanted to be and would then walk with me until I lost interest.
I know, anecdotes, data, yadda, but damn if Rolph wasn’t the best dog we ever had.
bemused
@licensed to kill time:
lol. He could have wanted to be the aggro or just a total pushover.
Jess
@Beauzeaux:
Do you own a Xolo? I’m thinking about getting one (coated, standard–not one of those nekkid things).
EEH
@PurpleGirl: There’s a reason why greyhounds are known as the world’s fastest couch potatoes.
PurpleGirl
My friends had a Doberman, three to five retired racing greyhounds at any one time. (There was also a cat, two parrots, three ferrets, and an ever-changing number of gerbils.)
The Doberman (Hugo) was the oldest of the bunch and the alpha. He had been trained to be a house/family pet. He liked me, I became one of his humans. You knew who he liked and didn’t like. My friend had to train me in how to handle Hugo but after that he obeyed me. He did have, as I called it, a Doberman routine when he felt he had to protect me but even then he followed my lead in walking and obeyed commands. With humans he liked he was a marshmallow. Hugo thought he was a lap dog and would climb onto the couch to sit with me — but only his head fit in my lap.
PurpleGirl
@EEH: Yeah, after a few years of racing, they want to retire the right way…. sleeping.
maus
Not fatally mauling your children isn’t really a good endorsement in and of itself of breed temperament.
Punchy
Do I know you, PG? B/c you’ve just described my white grey.
It’s become almost embarrasing at the dog park, the way she’ll sneak up to anyone, nose aloft, pimping for petting.
Bnut
I worked as a vet tech for several years in college. Poodles and Chihuahuas were easily the most prolific breeds when it came to biting. This one toy poodle took my damn thumb nail off and the owner looked at me like I had slapped her in the face. Of course, we had problems with big dogs occasionally (trying to give a shot to a 150 pound Mastiff who does not want to be touched makes you feel alive). In the end, stupid people make stupid dogs.
P.S., for anyone who has never been on the receiving end of a no shit balls to the wall cat attack, well………lucky you. That was alot of stitches.
LanceThruster
Owned 2 Dachshund/Terrier mixes. Wonderful dogs (though lots of loud bravado). Maybe they’d make the list if people wrote wiener/weiner? dog.
Macha Maguire
Everyone loves their dogs… (don’t get me started on working cocker spaniels) but are you sure that simply ‘not killing many people’ is the right criterion for choosing one? Personally, when I got the new pup, I put in two years of research into the inherited genetic conditions and divided them into those I could live with and those I couldn’t (aka didn’t want to live with an animal I loved who was suffering from- say advanced hip dysplasia or going blind with retinal atrophy. And yes, I do know you can get bilateral hip replacements – I used to be a veterinary anaesthetist and watched them done daily – but why go there?)
And don’t believe anyone who tells you their breed has no inherited defects – * barring racing greyhounds which are bred to be ultra-healthy. If they’re not fit, they get shot. This is about the only way to in-breed with any kind of safety. Otherwise, if it’s got any kind of common ancestry (ie, the same ancestor appearing more than once in the past 10 generations of pedigree, or lots beyond that) then there will be something. And if it’s a mutt, it just means you can’t always predict what they’ll have. Unless you know the mix – a GSD x Rottweiler *will* have appalling hips, whatever else it might display.
I read a report of a group of behaviourists who sat around one day talking over which dogs should be allowed from a behavioural point of view. They came down to one breed – the cavalier king charles spaniel – but then they’ve been utterly destroyed by inherited syringomyelia (google is your friend) so don’t go there…
good luck. As they said, rescue greyhounds can be amazing. And fit (*)
Mnemosyne
@Bnut:
My brother’s cat bit me on the leg pretty seriously (I was able to get away and lock him in the room before he could bite more than once, but it was close). Major bleeding, two hours in the emergency room, really painful rinsing with salt water and hydrogen peroxide, and two weeks of an oral triple antibiotic.
Cat bites are really, really nasty. A cat can fuck you up if it wants to.
MattR
@Mnemosyne:
Which is why if push came to shove I would always bet on an outdoor cat against any sized dog as long as there are trees available for the cat to use.
PurpleGirl
One of my friends’ greyhounds had a blind eye; but he came from good stock and his owners decided to train him as a racer anyway. He raced for three or four years before he was retired. How does a blind dog race: since he was blind in his right eye, he was always placed in the outermost right lane. He could still see the dogs to his left.
Keith G
Spent many years around Dobies. I think they are fantastic. Way too smart and are able to pick up words very quickly. Will out think an average human and they are very athletic. Two of my sister’s were top notch Frisbee dogs.
As such, they need commitment. Need to keep them mentally and physically engaged to have healthy and happy pups. Training and long walks are essential.
For several of the Dobies I knew, I was one of their playmates. The love and fun that I got back for my efforts was truly great.
frankdawg
I got dragged to dog shows for a while because of a family connection. The deal is that the AKC standard expects ‘aggressiveness’ as part of the personality of some breeds. How a judge uses the standard is a crap-shoot since few, if any, dogs match 100%. When being shown your doberman had better be aggressive (whatever the hell that actually means) or some judges will down grade it.
This leads to several breeds of purebreds being difficult. Someone mentioned dachshunds, they are in the same boat as are Scott Terriers. Now many of the pet quality dogs of those breeds are good companions but baked into their DNA by humans is a preference for aggressive. A lot has to do with how they are raised & handled. Its not really the dogs fault.
I heard stories, from their handlers, of two dob’s that killed themselves while trying to attack someone. One dove through a plate glass window trying to get the mailman, the other strangled itself in a fence trying to get a neighbor weeding her garden. I also saw some very nice ones in the ring but I wouldn’t have one, thanks.
Stick with mutts.
BTW – the movie “Best in Show”? – too nice by double! Many of the people I met at shows were loonie beyond belief. I ended up buying an Afghan Hound from the widower of a woman that bred & showed toy poodles & cocker spaniels. The night she died he went home, calmly walked out to the kennel and shot each of the dogs except this hound (which nobody could tell me why she owned). He took a pair of clippers to her so that when I got her she had a buzz cut.
lawguy
I had a pit mix for years and she was the sweetest dog I’ve ever owned (unless you were a cat which was not the big tom next door who she loved). I’ve had chows and they were both wonderful dogs, but very protective and stand offish.
I’d have to agree, it is how they are raised, not what they are.
For what it’s worth I’ve seen videos of dog fights that trainers had gotten for purposes of showing stuff at dog training classes I went to, and dogs that are used as fighting dogs normally have to be able to be easily handled by people.
Stupid people who do not socialize their dogs are the real cause of most of the bites I think.
SRW1
Most be something wrong with the US education system, in Germany almost every school kid gets that right.
Liz
@WereBear:
People don’t get the big breeds to coo over and spoil rotten, because you just can’t.
You’re kidding, right? I know many labs (especially) that are totally spoiled beyond the point of tolerance…eating from the table, sleeping in the bed…
RedKitten
That doesn’t surprise me about the Airedale. They’re absurdly sweet-tempered. The males are, anyway. The females, especially if they’ve had litters, can be a little less patient. My husband’s parents have had Airedales for twenty-some years now, and they’re a lovely dog. When the time comes for us to get a pooch, we’ll probably look for an Airedale or Wheaten mix (we prefer mixed-breeds as they tend to be healthier).
And bemused, I remember that Herriott story. They were Westies, weren’t they? That’s another dog that I can’t help but like — they’re just so merry-looking.
bemused
@RedKitten:
I don’t remember the breed. I’m not familiar with Westies. Samoyeds always look like they are smiling & their personalities match.
litbrit
Pit Bull girl here.
I’ve loved–and, sadly, lost–three of them in my adult years, and I have to say, they are a noble, deeply intelligent, amazingly intuitive, loyal, and above all LOVING breed.
It really is about who does the raising and how.
We’re currently looking to rescue a couple of Pittie siblings to live at the farm, where they will be loved by us even as their reputation is feared (we hope) by the local meth-heads who keep breaking into people’s offices and stealing everything that isn’t nailed down and even some things that are. Had my dear little Winston still been alive, I don’t doubt the larcenous a**hole would’ve skipped our place in favor of a less bark-wracked one.
Anyway, so yeah, Pit Bulls. Pam Spaulding has been an ardent supporter of sane dog laws/policies and, like me, would love to see people held accountable instead of breeds; she’s a good one to contact for information about adopting them, if you or anyone is interested.
I haven’t read every comment above, but have you considered Labradors? That’s our other favorite kind of doggie, also known as The Yubradors (this has to do with the way ours, named Mo, used to run and grunt at the same time and it sounded kind of like *yub yub yub*, if you must know.) Labs are wonderful around kids, and they’re serious lovers and eaters alike–you will have to teach your Lab that he’s actually not a cat and would he please not climb into your lap since he now weighs more than you do and you’re rather fond of this breathing thing.
Corner Stone
It’s really odd. Everyone here has had the most lovable, good natured and completely non-threatening puppy ever.
Guess it must be those “other” owners with all the dogs that ended up not working out so well.
carr1on
I have a Neopolitan Mastiff, which are bred to be guard dogs. Fairly big, approx 145lbs, with a bark that will certainly make you think twice about doing anything to upset her. Plus they are mean looking in a way that Rotties can’t match (IMHO).
The key was lots of socializing from a puppy and domination. A big dog like a Mastiff (any variant) must know who the Alpha is in the family, and their place in the pecking order (mainly: last place). I have a 7 year-old son who can lay on top of the Neo, and she just throws him off and walks away when she’s tired of him. She only growled at him one time when he was little, and I quickly applied some “therapy”. Consistency is the key.
She is friendly but reserved to strangers in the house, until she feels comfortable to them. I’ve only had one instance of her going after someone, and that was a Cable installer dude that frankly was giving me the creeps too. He gave off a weird Charles Manson vibe. The last I saw him was screaming cuss words as he was running for the gate! I called the Cable company and asked for a different installer.
YMMV.
carr1on
Razor Eddie – I’m curious how your Cane Corso’s interact with other dogs? I have a Boxer along with my Neo, and they are very close to each other. The Boxer usually uses the Neo as a rug to sleep on.
@Razor Eddie:
protected static
@Corner Stone: You don’t like some kinds of dogs, we got it. Now stop being obtuse.
RedKitten
@Corner Stone:
We had an insane dog when I was growing up. It was a Chesapeake Bay Retriever, IIRC, and was a complete lunatic. We had to repair our backyard fence and so had to tie him for a little while when he was outside. We tried a regular ground post and it wouldn’t hold him, so we tied him to this huge-ass barn beam that my uncle had. It took my uncle, my stepdad and my grandfather to carry the thing into our yard. My mom was inside doing laundry and taking care of us, and forgot about the dog for a little while. A half hour later she comes outside and the dog is gone. And so is the beam. She looks down the driveway and realizes that traffic is backed up…because the dog is dragging the beam down Centennial Avenue, blocking off traffic both ways.
When we moved, we gave him to a lady who had a farm, figuring that he’d be able to run around and blow off steam. He wound up killing all of her chickens.
Lirpa
Since this post is entitles “rescue dog update”, you ought to consider which breeds are in most need of rescue. Many other posters have brought up the fact that it isn’t the breed that is the problem, it is the upbringing of the individual dog. Whenever I look over the group of dogs waiting for good homes listed in our local paper, it seems to be 90% pit types. Their bad reputation surely keeps the dog owners who aren’t committed to being pack leaders from adopting. Yes, these dogs are capable of doing more damage than the average poodle. But when they are properly trained, you will not find a more loyal buddy. I have had mutts, dachsunds, fox terriers, a blue healer and a prima donna boxer but it was my two pit bulls that taught me how to be a pack leader and they have given me such joy. Not to mention that it is a nice feeling, as a woman walking at dusk or dawn, to know that no one is going to mess with me and my pits. Of course, those passing by have no idea that Scoober would run and hide in the bushes if anyone gave her a second look and Alley Trash (found in a dumpster in an alley) would rather kiss them than ever allow her teeth to touch a human.
Who needs rescuing the most – the loveable lab or the tough looking pit bull?
PS. Another pit bull benefit is that it seems Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons don’t care to proselytize to households with pits!
Jerry 101
oddly, there are 38,200 hits for “killed by a chihauhua”.
People apparently find the concept to be quite funny.
Choice headlines –
Dog Whisperer Mauled to Death by a Chihuahua
My 180lbs Rotwieler (sic) was killed by a Chihuahua
OTOH, there are only 3 hits for “killed by a shih tzu”
And to the person who asked, “killed by a labradoodle” reveals 0 hits.
Killed by a Portuguese Water Dog has one hit. It’s a google books result under “fiction”. Malia and Sasha appear to be safe.
Cat
@carr1on:
IMO dog’s are the best readers of humans non-verbal communication. If your dog doesn’t like someone you shouldn’t either.
Jimmm
To be fair, “killed by a boxer” might not, strictly speaking, be limited to dog attacks.
mike in dc
I suppose it’s possible someone could be killed by a Newf, but I’d think it would involve being smothered or crushed by an affectionate one.
Surprising that caucasian shepherds have only one recorded attack. I mean, potentially anyway, they’re the Godzilla of aggressive breeds.
No Joy in Mudville
I’ve been bitten twice in my life. Once as little kid (on the butt) by a Doberman. The Doberman wasn’t as guilty as he appeared — it was more his owner’s fault for telling me to go ahead and look in the window to see him. Because I was so short I had to jump up repeatedly to get a look. My little head appearing and disappearing repeatedly got the dog worked into a frenzy. Then the owner casually walked outside and inadvertently let the Doberman out. I was just helping my friend over the fence when the teeth sunk into my tender little cheek.
The other time I was bitten it was on the thigh by a Dachshund — that dog was the spawn of Satan, pure and simple.
No Joy in Mudville
@Lirpa:
I’ve actually heard mixed opinions on this. While upbringing of individual dogs is important, I’ve been told that some dogs (especially the pit bull) have been bred for fighting for so long that they do pose a genuinely greater risk than most other dogs regardless of upbringing. And when they do attack, the results can be grim. More than one person (animal and dog lovers all) has told me that pit bulls can be great with adults, but shouldn’t be left alone around little children. I knew a pit bull, Rosey, who seemed amazingly sweet, but his owner would never leave her alone (or allow her off a leash) in the presence of small children. Better safe than sorry, I guess.
@mike in dc:
Hundreds, if not thousands, of people have drowned in Newfoundland saliva. It’s not a pretty way to go.
JR
Not only are pit bulls regularly misidentified as attacking dogs (try this quiz and see the problem yourself), but fatal bites are such a small portion of dog bites that it makes little sense to fixate on fatal bites–we should look for biting behavior of all varieties if we want a particularly useful statistic.
RandyH
When my mom was very young and her family lived in Alabama, their large forested property backed up to at a big creek where aligators would visit people’s yards very regularly.
They had a Doberman and she would instinctively (without any training) patrol the yard whenever any of the kids were out there, looking for alligators. If she found any, she would literally drag the kids into the house. She would never hurt the kids but she’d stop at nothing protecting them from danger.
Anne Laurie
@Foxhunter:
The Chessies I’ve met have all been great dogs for the lifestyle you describe — the best short description would be “What Labradors were meant to be, before the brains got bred out.” They are strong, active dogs, but as long as they get a decent amount of exercise on a regular basis they won’t drive you crazy barking or chewing or demanding attention 24/7. The one potential drawback is the famous “oily” Chessie coat, while perfect protection for swimming in icy waters, doesn’t always smell so good to finicky humans & tends to be an allergen magnet, but if you were happy living with a Bassett, you probably don’t have those problems, do you?
Corner Stone
@protected static: I don’t like you either, so kindly DIAF.
Tim F.
@Lirpa: Na ga ha pen. Can you prove that a shelter pit has never been abused? No. Their former owners can go to hell for buying a faddish dog that they couldn’t handle, but I’m not going to risk losing a relative on account of their mistake.
lawguy
Another thing about pits, that is just what the Little Rascal’s dog was, Petty I think the name was.
Mnemosyne
@No Joy in Mudville:
Frankly, little children should never be left alone with any dog of any kind. Ever. A Pomeranian can easily kill an infant, and has.
I know stories about little kids climbing all over dogs are cute, but I wince every time I read one, because sometimes they end very badly for everyone even if it’s not a “dangerous” dog.
Corner Stone
@Mnemosyne:
This sucks because it is at least two things we can agree on. Dammit!
Every year we see 6 to 12 or more stories about something really awful happening in the blink of an eye. Something life changing, or worst case life ending.
Anne Laurie
@Tom Levenson:
This is the kind of story that breaks my heart. My first dog, the late sainted Galley, was a fuzzy twelve-pound red-and-white kid magnet. I lost count of the number of times we got blindsided by larval humans, usually shrieking at the top of their lungs, who just had to pet the puppy! ! ! One toddler at a training class, hand to goddess, tried to trade the obstreperous halfgrown Golden Retriever her misguided parents had bought ‘as a nice pet for the baby’ for Galley… she was too young to have the words for what she wanted, but she kept trying to force the Golden’s lead into my hand while never releasing her grip from around Galley’s neck. But there were also those kids who’d spot Galley & I walking in the park and burst into tears — or just stop & run in the other direction. (Which is, of course, never a great idea.) I hope as your son gets older, he’s able to come to terms with his quite reasonable fears, just for his own sake. Depending on how dog-intensive your neighborhood is, you might eventually decide to try some kind of “immersion therapy” together, where he can visit a properly supervised dog or group of dogs and work on keeping his own reactions from inadvertantly triggering any future unpleasant incidents.
protected static
@Corner Stone: Gotcha. I see that my initial impulse – ‘stop being an asshole’ – was more on-target than ‘stop being obtuse.’ Duly noted.
No Joy in Mudville
@Mnemosyne:
I agree, but most (or certainly very, very many) people think their children are safe with the family dog. The risk of trusting Bart the Bandanna Clad Golden Retriever is probably a lot less than relying on Spike the pit bull. What one pit bull owner told me was that the problem with children is that they are not too big and not too small, but just right for pit bulls to attack.
Imagine the carnage if house cats were 45-60 pounds. (And in shape, unlike a certain feline we know.)
Lee
I hate having to work at work. I love dog bite threads (my wife is a veterinarian).
(if you’re still reading this Tim F).
One thing to note about your data; Pit Bull is not really a breed. It typically is a catchall of “that dog looks mean and has a big head”.
There was one study done awhile back that I believe gathered its data from the veterinary field. The dogs that bit the most were the small dogs (which every vet will tell you they worry about the most).
Typically the bigger dogs will be great big babies. Every so often you do get the big mean dog, but usually they also have idiot owners that are oblivious to their dog.