Oh, I agree about not leaving a mark. I’ve posted a fair amount on torture, but this Tiny Revolution post directly relates to your point:

“When you receive a subject, the first thing to do is to determine his physical state, his degree of resistance, through a medical examination. A premature death means a failure by the technician.

“Another important thing to know is exactly how far you can go given the political situation and the personality of the prisoner. It is very important to know beforehand whether we have the luxury of letting the subject die…

“Before all else, you must be efficient. You must cause only the damage that is strictly necessary, not a bit more. We must control our tempers in any case. You have to act with the efficiency and cleanliness of a surgeon and with the perfection of an artist…

By the way, I’m angry too, but I bet we should refrain from calls of execution.

yes, some here sound EXACTLY like those folks who were screaming for revenge after september 11th. pathetic chest thumping.

blood lust is a human frailty. that’s why civilized societies have laws to rein in these unfortunate human tendencies.

so let’s follow the law. AG Holder, do your job.

I’d be curious to find out whether Zubaydah or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed actually ever did confess to links with Saddam. I have trouble imagining that they didn’t given the extent to which they were tortured, but I would also think that had they done so, Bush administration officials would have trumpeted that success (anonymously of course) in the run-up to the war.

Back in the late 60s and early 70s, it took an awful lot of television news reports (night after night, to boot) and an awful lot of young family members and neighbors getting drafted off and killed to get the citizenry at large enraged enough to bludgeon their government into finally fucking DOING something already to end the Vietnam war years ago, and it looks to me like the same sort of thing may be happening here. Don’t get me wrong, I too want to see justice done yesterday, if not sooner. But with every new situation, I become more and more convinced that Obama’s all about the long game. In this case, the long game (hopefully) will mean that the guilty will get their day in court, with the added bonus of shitloads of evidence to ensure convictions, and any backlash against bringing them to justice will be so marginalized by the overwhelming public outrage that blowback—either the political kind or the more nefarious kind, at the hands of violent extremists—will be minimized or, hopefully in the case of the latter, avoided altogether.

In the meantime, though, those of us who are already aware of the horrible shit that went down and are impatient for justice to be served had better lay in a supply of vodka and martini olives, good music, gourmet ice cream, or whatever else we need to help us access our happy places, because what it will take to build up public outrage to the point where it will support prosecution, conviction, and (necessarily) severe sentencing is not, not, NOT going to be pretty.

here’s why:

Topics of the Times
New York Times May 2, 1902 p. 8
We commend, as a particularly sane view of the situation in the Philippines, some remarks on the conduct of hostilities there which are made this week by one of the regular contributors to Harper’s Weekly. After noting that the seizure of hidden rifles, even by help of the “water cure,” means to save life, to stop fighting, and to give the civil arm a chance, he adds: “A choice of cruelties is the best that has been offered in the Philippines. It is not so certain that we at home can afford to shudder at the water cure unless we disown the whole job, and if we do disown the whole job we cannot put the responsibility for it on the army. The army has obeyed orders. It was sent to the Philippines to subdue the Filipinos, and it seems to have made remarkable progress. Having the devil to fight, it has sometimes used fire; having liars to fight, it has sometimes used lies; having semi-civilized men to fight, it has in some instances used semi-civilized methods. That was inevitable, and will be inevitable as long as soldiers are men. If these water-cure cases are brought to trial they should be tried in the Philippines, before men who are familiar with the circumstances of their occurrence and the general conditions and standards of conduct that obtained where they happened. None of us believes that cruelty runs in the American blood, or that wanton cruelty has been done in the Philippines, except in isolated cases, but the American soldier is an earnest man, and wants results. Major GARDENER says, ‘Use native troops.’ By all means use native troops as soon as they can be trusted. By all means, meanwhile, curb the zeal of our troops when it verges toward ferocity. But don’t condemn them unheard, and don’t blame them for faults that are part of the job. It is our job, not theirs.” There is much in that long quotation to horrify the anti-everythings who call themselves anti-imperialists, and a little to pain the thorough-going patriot who glories in being for his country whether it is right or wrong, but the recognition of facts as they are is apparent all through it, and such recognition is common sense.

this comes from the wiki entry on the Senate (Lodge) committee.

when was the last time you heard mention of what occurred there?

OTOH, that we are discussing the subject at all could be taken as progress.

Some of the senators listed are quite conservativeevil

Fixed.

People who cruise the blogs and read magazines might know. But for most people, this was a case of “bad apples” who got put in prison… end of story.

This will stir it up again, and in a way that makes it clear that scandal was just the tip of the iceberg.

You can’t listen to the rantings of the Right. The people who elected President Obama do care.

They just didn’t know.

I would bet what little money I have, based on small trial balloons I have floated among people I know, that they didn’t realize how widespread and terrible it was.

So I think we haven’t seen the response from the public, yet.