but for those citizens who somehow lost their minds because of what happened, please help yourself and stay focused… rape, looting, etc.. is not the solution! have mercy on your fellow victims. be human!

Inge, living 12 feet below sea level in Holland, with dry feet for 25 years :)

Even if leaving the marshes alone did change things, how many parts of our world have been changed by the exsistance of humans? Can we predict everywhere with certainty what our presence will do? Not likely. For every enviromental disaster prediction that happens how many come true as opposed to those that don’t? It easy to be right once out of a hundred and then claim that you are always right. But, it takes frequent and acurate predictions that turn out to be true to qualify as fact.

One thing is certain, everyone that knew about the history of New Orleans knew if a big enough hurrican hit it, the levies would break and the city would be flooded. We also know the levies were not built to take the size of this hurrican. They weren’t built stronger because of the cost to do so. Was that a mistake? Sure seems like it now. But how often can politicians get support for massivly expensive projects until AFTER something terrible happens. Politicans would have been attacked if they tried to strengthen the Levies. They would have been accused of not putting that money into edjucation or health care. Voter’s would have likely agreed and kicked the politican the wanted to strengthen the levies out of office.

We live in a reactive society. We had record voter turn out last election because of september 11th but the election of 2000 was an all time low. Why? No one thought their vote changed the way life ran. People would not have supported stronger levies because no one saw just how dangerous they were at their current state.

I don’t like laying blame during such a horrible event, because it’s so easy to blame whoever is convenient. But I would blame the mind set we have as a nation that we are safe until events prove otherwise.

What is the quote? “the cost of freedom is eternal vigilance”. It seems that lack of vigilance can result in the loss of life as well. Should we ignore our impact on the enviroment? I think we should not damage more then is neccisary to allow people to live happy, productive and godd quality lives. Will there be costs that we don’t see when we live anywhere in the world? Probably. Will people still die of natural disaster if we lived in tents and only ate vegitables. Probably.

Remember, technology has proven to help lessen the death from disasters. The leveis would have lessened death if they were state of the art just as the building codes in California lessen death during an earthquake. But, no mater what preperation is made, the worst of the worst of disasters will kill. They only way they don’t is if we aren’t there. But disasters can happen everywhere whether its a tornado, wildfire, flood, earth quake, volcano and hurrican. If there is a place that none of these can happen, I certainly would like to know so I can move there.

WHO’S “WE?”

The US Taxpayer is going to rebuild New Orleans? The US Homeowner who has to pay higher insurance premiums?

For what are WE going to get? Another environmentally unsuitable city that is vulnerable to nature? In case anybody doesn’t know this: NATURE WINS. Every time. I suppose “WE” can just keep damning up this abomination and continue to keep causing more environmental disasters where nature had saw in the past to keep fit!

What is too much is you attempting to make a point when you really haven’t one. Do you just say the first thing that pops into your vacuous mind, or do you actually have to try to come off as stupid as you do?

Ever hear of a strawman? I guess so, since I never even brought up this ‘global climate change’ tangent of yours. But apparently, you’re in full-on Republican defense mode, so when someone says ‘environment’ you think ‘global warming’.

This is funny in so many ways. BWHAAAA! I like the throw down of Hurricane cred, well-played. Now we must bow to your hurricane wisdom. Really, you are too much.

Have you ever heard of full of shit? Of being patently false? They apply to your analysis with stunning precision.

Living “more in harmony with nature” would have done squat to change the intensity of Katrina. Big Storms Happen, as the Earth Turns and the Sun Shines. That’s just the way it is. When big storms happen, man can’t stop them.

Of course more wetlands would not have STOPPED this storm, but not dredging up a football field of wetland worth of swampland every 45 minutes would have helped a hell of a lot with the flooding and storm surge, but as I suspected you prefer the path of misdirection. Man isn’t responnsible for ruining his environment, shit just happens.

You can argue about whether global climate change is make more big storms happen, if you want, but it’s pure intellectual masturbation to do so—we live in the world as it is now, and, in that world, warming is a reality. Whether warming made Katrina worse or not is a stupid question.

Ever hear of a strawman? I guess so, since I never even brought up this ‘global climate change’ tangent of yours. But apparently, you’re in full-on Republican defense mode, so when someone says ‘environment’ you think ‘global warming’.

In this case, d00d, that would have made no difference, and (now listen carefully, and remember that I’m as much a lefty as you are) trying to demagogue Katrina is disgusting and distasteful. New Orleans wasn’t slammed because God punished her for her “unnatural lifestyle”, and she wasn’t slammed because God punished her for her “not sufficiently close to nature” lifestyle either.

You love to pile on the bullshit. Demagogue Katrina? I did no such thing. I stated the obvious—mankind’s impact on the environment has dire consequences. Live up to it. Own it. And all this other bullshit about lifestyle and God is entirely of your creation, not mine.

So thanks for all the pretty little strawmen, but take your own advice. Accepting responsibility for your actions is part of growing up. Shirking your responsibility and villifying those that try to make you accept it is what is disgusting and distasteful.

Oh, and by the way. Hurricane Katrina went right over my fucking house. So I’m glad you can sit there in the comfort of your home spouting bullshit in safety.

Living “more in harmony with nature” would have done squat to change the intensity of Katrina. Big Storms Happen, as the Earth Turns and the Sun Shines. That’s just the way it is. When big storms happen, man can’t stop them.

You can argue about whether global climate change is make more big storms happen, if you want, but it’s pure intellectual masturbation to do so—we live in the world as it is now, and, in that world, warming is a reality. Whether warming made Katrina worse or not is a stupid question.

What I have said, and say, is that yes, preserving the wetlands would have made a difference in a smaller storm. In this case, d00d, that would have made no difference, and (now listen carefully, and remember that I’m as much a lefty as you are) trying to demagogue Katrina is disgusting and distasteful. New Orleans wasn’t slammed because God punished her for her “unnatural lifestyle”, and she wasn’t slammed because God punished her for her “not sufficiently close to nature” lifestyle either.

Grow up.

I just can’t get over those poor people. Did anybody see that interview with that man who was holding on to his wife and kids, and he couldn’t hold on any longer, so his wife let go, after telling him to take care of the kids? I choke up every time I think about it. I’m agnostic, so I’m not much of a one for prayer, but my heart truly goes out to that man.

The only problem with that is when people even include column B, the worst offenders of column A bang it like a drum and use it as a way to distract people from their actions.

It’s the old trick of misdirection…pay attention to my right hand so you’ll ignore what y left hand is doing.

Since you can’t have it both ways, which do you choose?

A) This is a wake up call that man needs to start improving his relationship with the environment or face dire consequences.

B) Man isn’t really affecting the environment that adversely, and since nature is so unpredictable anyway, shit happens.

Or would you rather regale us with another ‘have your cake and eat it too’ lecture?

Like a lot of things, I know something about this—although not as much as I suspect that ppGaz knows, at least if he’s who I think he is.

There’s truth in both sides of the argument about wetlands. On the one hand, yes, a wetland effectively low-pass filters the time course of the advance of the surge. That’s relevant because (1) the surge is short lived (only a couple of hours) and (2) the waves that ride on top of the surge—and that do a lot of the worst damage—are more short lived still. If you can low pass filter them, you can, and sometimes will, protect the land behind the wetland from catastrophic waves and mass water movement.

On the other hand…folks, this was a 15-plus foot surge with 30-plus foot waves riding above it, even as far inland as New Orleans. Newsflash: nothing would stop that except a flood wall as high as St. Louis’s, which came within 6” of failing in the 1992 summer floods. If it had failed, the situation would have been worse than if it had not been present at all.

I am unsure how to do the link, so here it is in primitive form:

http://msnbc.msn.com/Default.a.....arc=Rating

Google, of course, has more.

That’s interesting, John S. I wasn’t aware of that effect. Can you please point to me to some research detailing the effects of swampland on curtailing damage from a Cat 4 hurricane?

Judging from the snark of your further comments, I presume you work for an oil company, but here is some interesting reading for you here.

You may notice the abundance of excerpts from the indexed sites referring to “The staggering annual losses of wetlands in Louisiana are caused by humans” and “Wetland Loss Averages One Football Field Every 45 Minutes” or “New Orleans’ growing danger. Wetlands loss leaves city a hurricane hit away”.

And of course, I’m sure you really give a crap.